Poll on who believes PSA ?

Do you believe in PSA ?

  • Yes

    Votes: 4 15.4%
  • No

    Votes: 22 84.6%

  • Total voters
    26
I find PSA problematic: ‘Penal substitution … is unbiblical not just because it distorts or leaves out biblical concepts but also because of its attempt at having one image or more serve as an all-encompassing theory, the only correct and needed explanation of the atonement.’

It's a story of atonement that orientates itself purely and simply around the wrath of God. It is generally agreed that some biblical doctrines are more in some sense important than others. To me God's love is more important than His wrath.

For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
John 3:16.
 
I find PSA problematic: ‘Penal substitution … is unbiblical not just because it distorts or leaves out biblical concepts but also because of its attempt at having one image or more serve as an all-encompassing theory, the only correct and needed explanation of the atonement.’

It's a story of atonement that orientates itself purely and simply around the wrath of God. It is generally agreed that some biblical doctrines are more in some sense important than others. To me God's love is more important than His wrath.

For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
John 3:16.

Thanks for your insight, Bassnah.
There are more than one "model" used by the inspired authors to talk about Jesus sacrifice.

One that has strong biblical support and is often glossed over is the model of the purchase of the slave, or redemption of the slave.
Under this model...
  1. Man has made himself slave of a bad master, and now can't free himself from such slavery.
  2. God wants to set man free. So, God sends Jesus Christ to buy the slave from the bad master.
  3. To buy his freedom, Jesus pays the bad master a huge price: his own life.
  4. Now, in gratitude, man wants to be the servant (slave) of a New Master, Jesus Christ.

The insights brought by this model are:

  • It is supported by Scriptures (John 8:34, Rom 6:16-22 (see below); 1 Cor 6:20, 1 Cor 7:23, Gal 4:7, Eph 1:14, Col 1:14)
  • It is an analogy that was well understood for the readers of the apostles.
  • It makes God's love, not God's wrath, the center of the process
  • The innocent is not punished on behalf of the guilty, which is contrary to the principle of justice delineated in Ezekiel 18.
  • It is not God who demands blood, but the bad master, as befits a bad master.
  • Salvation gets inherently linked to becoming a Servant of God, obeying God, living no more like a slave of the flesh.

"Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.... For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom 6:16-22, excerpt)

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Salvation, under this model, is God’s way to enable man to stop obeying the flesh, and start obeying God.
When we submit to God we are truly free.
“Then you will know the truth, and truth will set you free” (John 8:32)
 
Thanks for your insight, Bassnah.
There are more than one "model" used by the inspired authors to talk about Jesus sacrifice.

One that has strong biblical support and is often glossed over is the model of the purchase of the slave, or redemption of the slave.
Under this model...
  1. Man has made himself slave of a bad master, and now can't free himself from such slavery.
  2. God wants to set man free. So, God sends Jesus Christ to buy the slave from the bad master.
  3. To buy his freedom, Jesus pays the bad master a huge price: his own life.
  4. Now, in gratitude, man wants to be the servant (slave) of a New Master, Jesus Christ.

The insights brought by this model are:

  • It is supported by Scriptures (John 8:34, Rom 6:16-22 (see below); 1 Cor 6:20, 1 Cor 7:23, Gal 4:7, Eph 1:14, Col 1:14)
  • It is an analogy that was well understood for the readers of the apostles.
  • It makes God's love, not God's wrath, the center of the process
  • The innocent is not punished on behalf of the guilty, which is contrary to the principle of justice delineated in Ezekiel 18.
  • It is not God who demands blood, but the bad master, as befits a bad master.
  • Salvation gets inherently linked to becoming a Servant of God, obeying God, living no more like a slave of the flesh.

"Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.... For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom 6:16-22, excerpt)

View attachment 1465
Blood is arguably one of the most important symbols of both the Old and New Testament. From the very first account of fratricide in the OT, blood plays a significant role in both the literal and symbolic sense:

  • The LORD said, ‘What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground. Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. (Gen 4:10-11)
The imagery is vivid – the personified blood of Abel cries out to God for justice. Justice in turn requires restitution. In the covenant that God makes with Noah and his descendants, God declares that when human blood is shed, restitution must also be made in blood:

  • ‘Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind. (Gen 9:6)
This principle of blood for blood or “life for life” is key to the system of justice and the rituals of atonement in the Old Testament. Blood represents both the life that is taken, as well as the life that is offered for the atonement of sin.

  • Anyone who takes the life of a human being is to be put to death. Anyone who takes the life of someone’s animal must make restitution – life for life. (Lev 24:17-18)
Figuratively, blood represents death, or sin and separation from God, on the one hand; and new life, or restitution and reconciliation with God, on the other. And just as sin can be said to leave the stain of blood, the blood that is offered in atonement washes away the stain of sin.

  • But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear. For your hands are stained with blood, your fingers with guilt. (Is 59:2-3)
  • “He shall take some of the bull’s blood and some of the goat’s blood and put it on all the horns of the altar. He shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times to cleanse it and to consecrate it from the uncleanness of the Israelites. (Lev 7: 18-19)
But in the NT, the blood of Christ represents both the sin and the offering, both the life that is taken and the life that is given and offered for the forgiveness of sins. His blood, alone unstained by sin, reconciles all who sin with God. Unlike the blood of Abel that cried out for justice, the blood of Christ opens the way for God's mercy. It is the blood of the new covenant and brings to fulfillment God’s ultimate vision of peace for mankind.

  • But you have come to… Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks of something better than Abel’s does. (Heb 12:22-24)
  • For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings. (Hos 6:6) Nhi @ Biblical Hermenuetics Stack Exchange
hope this helps !!!
 
Matthew 26:26-29
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

Hebrews 9:22
Because all things are purged by blood in The Written Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Leviticus 4:20,26,35

And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them

Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.

A Walk through Hebrews

Hebrews 9

Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.


6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.


11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining[b] eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!


15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.


16 In the case of a will,[d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.”[e] 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Hebrews 10
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[b]

17 Then he adds:

Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more
.”[c]

18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

Hebrews 12
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Hebrews 13
The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

Conclusion: The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin. That is the heart of the Atonement. It is what the New Covenant is found upon His blood/life which was given for our sins. Forgiveness is only found in His blood/life that He gave on our behalf. That is how are sins are removed and taken away. That is what the Law required for sin was the blood of the animal/sacrifice. Notice there is no punishment anywhere above for sin. :)

hope this helps !!!
 
How many here believe the doctrine from the Reformation called Penal Substitution Atonement theory ?

These 10 points are why I reject it as unbiblical. There are more than these 10 reasons.

If asked what Jesus came to do and how he did it, most contemporary Western Christians would automatically say something like, “Jesus took the punishment from God that I deserved.” This is what’s usually called the “Penal Substitution” view of the atonement, for it emphasizes that Jesus was punished by God in our place. His sacrifice appeased the Father’s wrath towards us and thus allows us to be saved.

This view has been the dominant view in western Christianity since the Reformation period, and it captures a profoundly important biblical truth. Jesus did certainly die as our substitute. And the cross certainly expresses God’s judgment on sin. But I have a number of unsettling questions about the idea that God had to vent his wrath on Jesus in order to forgive us. Here’s a few of them:

  1. Does God really need to appease his wrath with a blood sacrifice in order to forgive us? If so, does this mean that the law of “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” is the ultimate description of God’s character? And if this is true, what are we to make of Jesus’ teaching that this law is surpassed by the law of love? Not only this, but what are we to make of all the instances in the Bible where God forgives people without demanding a sacrifice (e.g. the prodigal son)?
  2. If God’s holiness requires that a sacrifice be made before he can fellowship with sinners, how did Jesus manage to hang out with sinners without a sacrifice, since he is as fully divine and as holy as God the Father?
  3. If Jesus’ death allows God the Father to accept us, wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that Jesus reconciles God to us than it is to say Jesus reconciles us to God? Yet the New Testament claims the latter and never the former (e.g. 2 Cor. 5:18-20). In fact, if God loves sinners and yet can’t accept sinners without a sacrifice, wouldn’t it be even more accurate to say that God reconciles God to himself than to say he reconciles us to God? But this is clearly an odd and unbiblical way of speaking.
  4. How are we to understand one member of the Trinity (the Father) being wrathful towards another member of the Trinity (the Son), when they are, along with the Holy Spirit, one and the same God? Can God be truly angry with God? Can God actually punish God?
  5. If God the father needs someone to “pay the price” for sin, does the Father ever really forgive anyone? Think about it. If you owe me a hundred dollars and I hold you to it unless someone pays me the owed sum, did I really forgive your debt? It seems not, especially since the very concept of forgiveness is about releasing a debt — not collecting it from someone else.
  6. Are sin and guilt the sorts of things that can be literally transferred from one party to another? Related to this, how are we to conceive of the Father being angry towards Jesus and justly punishing him when he of course knew Jesus never did anything wrong?
  7. If the just punishment for sin is eternal hell (as most Christians have traditionally believed), how does Jesus’ several hours of suffering and his short time in the grave pay for it?
  8. If the main thing Jesus came to do was to appease the Father’s wrath by being slain by him for our sin, couldn’t this have been accomplished just as easily when (say) Jesus was a one-year-old boy as when he was a thirty-three year old man? Were Jesus’ life, teachings, healing and deliverance ministry merely a prelude to the one really important thing he did – namely, die? It doesn’t seem to me that the Gospels divide up and prioritize the various aspects of Jesus’ life in this way. (I maintain that everything Jesus did was about one thing – overcoming evil with love. Hence, every aspect of Jesus was centered on atonement — that is, reconciling us to God and freeing us from the devil’s oppression.)
  9. To raise a more controversial question, if it’s true that God’s wrath must be appeased by sacrificing his own Son, then don’t we have to conclude that pagans who have throughout history sacrificed their children to appease the gods’ wrath had the right intuition, even if they expressed it in the wrong way?
  10. What is the intrinsic connection between what Jesus did on the cross and how we actually live? The Penal Substitution view makes it seem like the real issue in need of resolution is a legal matter in the heavenly realms between God’s holy wrath and our sin. Christ’s death changes how God sees us, but this theory says nothing about how Christ’s death changes us. This is particularly concerning to me because every study done on the subject has demonstrated that for the majority of Americans who believe in Jesus, their belief makes little or no impact on their life. I wonder if the dominance of this legal-transaction view of the atonement might be partly responsible for this tragic state of affairs.
To me, these are all serious problems with the Penal Substitution view of the atonement. I do not deny that Jesus died as our substitute or even that it was God’s will to “crush and bruise” him (Isa 53:10). But we don’t need to imagine that the Father vented his wrath against sin on Jesus to make sense of these facts. One can (and I think should) rather see this as the Father offering up his Son to the principalities and powers to be bruised and crushed in our place, for this unsurpassable expression of self-sacrificial love is what was needed to destroy the devil and his works and to thus set humans free, reconciling them to the Father.reknew.org

hope this helps !!!
There are some serious issues involved in penal substitution. It's effect on the godhead having God punish God, God forsaking God and fracturing the godhead is and destroying the trinity is particularly damaging. Also the idea that the spotless Christ can be counted as having sinned and thus be legally guilty is quite troubling.
 
There are some serious issues involved in penal substitution. It's effect on the godhead having God punish God, God forsaking God and fracturing the godhead is and destroying the trinity is particularly damaging. Also the idea that the spotless Christ can be counted as having sinned and thus be legally guilty is quite troubling.
Agreed it is grave conflict with the nature and character of our Triune-Tri-Unity Godhead.
 
There are some serious issues involved in penal substitution. It's effect on the godhead having God punish God, God forsaking God and fracturing the godhead is and destroying the trinity is particularly damaging. Also the idea that the spotless Christ can be counted as having sinned and thus be legally guilty is quite troubling.

And you want the consequences of your sin to be small and evil to not matter so much.

No, your sin cost God his life, stop despising it.
 
And you want the consequences of your sin to be small and evil to not matter so much.

No, your sin cost God his life, stop despising it.
Imagining what I want does not address the issues raised

There are some serious issues involved in penal substitution. It's effect on the godhead having God punish God, God forsaking God and fracturing the godhead is and destroying the trinity is particularly damaging. Also the idea that the spotless Christ can be counted as having sinned and thus be legally guilty is quite troubling.

Nor does falsifying my beliefs
 
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