The 10 most Commonly referred to points against PSA

Respectfully, the criticisms and accusations of OTHERS are not my problem. I accused God of nothing. No such slander of God's character was directed to me. I do not even know OF Steve Chalke. I have merely requested some scripture that states or implies that the Father directed His wrath at the Son when scripture is so clear in other places that:
  1. God's wrath is directed against the sinful.
  2. God is "patient" and "stores" His wrath for a "Day of Wrath" (future).
  3. God simply "relents" of His wrath when men turn from evil and obey.
If we are going to posit a TRANSFER OF WRATH, then there should be SOMETHING in the Bible to support it.
This question arose because I was TAUGHT PSA and believed it. Then one day, someone asked me where the Bible taught that? I knew it HAD to be in there and went searching for it. It was that search that forced me to conclude that the bible just doesn't teach that. Isaiah 53 is the closest it comes and that actually just says that PEOPLE believed that God had smitten Him ... which is true if you read the Gospel account. The PEOPLE believed that God was punishing Jesus for BLASPHEMY (we KNOW that the mockers were wrong).

I will be happy to embrace it ... PSA makes perfect sense. There just is no SCRIPTURE that actually supports the WRATH of the Father on the Son part of it ... so like the older "Ransom paid to the Devil" theory, it still needs work to be Scriptural. Until then ...

CHRISTUS VICTOR ... Jesus died to obtain the VICTORY that Scripture affirms that He obtained.
We have similar reasons for rejecting PSA and in my research much like yours the biggest reason for my rejection of the doctrine is its an assault on the Good and Loving character and nature of the Tri-Unity of God. There is no getting around the fact this teaching divides and causes seperation between the Father and the Son. So at its core teaching its anti- Christian, anti- God, anti- Tri-Unity, anti-Biblical and anti-Truth. Its deceptive.

My motto is Theology begins with God- the Study of God. When we are wrong about God it shows up in our doctrines we hold near and dear to us. I think of Theology as a mountain top and the Capstone on the Pyramid where at the Top is God. All doctrine flows down from the Top out of that Capstone. So how one thinks about God with directly impact his/her beliefs. For example we can see extremes in the following belief systems/religions.

Isalm- infidels
Jews- the Law, rituals
Catholics- Peter, Popes, Priests Righteousness by the Law,
Protestants- the opposite of the above- the 5 solas

The above is an oversimplification to make the point.
 
For these reasons, we hold that penal substitutionary atonement makes the most sense of the biblical data on the Cross.
... I agree with everything you wrote (including the fact that WRATH did not appear except in the FACT that we are SAVED FROM the wrath of God.)
  • no TRANSFER
  • no WRATH OF GOD POURED ON CHRIST
 
Respectfully, the criticisms and accusations of OTHERS are not my problem. I accused God of nothing. No such slander of God's character was directed to me. I do not even know OF Steve Chalke. I have merely requested some scripture that states or implies that the Father directed His wrath at the Son when scripture is so clear in other places that:
  1. God's wrath is directed against the sinful.
  2. God is "patient" and "stores" His wrath for a "Day of Wrath" (future).
  3. God simply "relents" of His wrath when men turn from evil and obey.
If we are going to posit a TRANSFER OF WRATH, then there should be SOMETHING in the Bible to support it.
This question arose because I was TAUGHT PSA and believed it. Then one day, someone asked me where the Bible taught that? I knew it HAD to be in there and went searching for it. It was that search that forced me to conclude that the bible just doesn't teach that. Isaiah 53 is the closest it comes and that actually just says that PEOPLE believed that God had smitten Him ... which is true if you read the Gospel account. The PEOPLE believed that God was punishing Jesus for BLASPHEMY (we KNOW that the mockers were wrong).

I will be happy to embrace it ... PSA makes perfect sense. There just is no SCRIPTURE that actually supports the WRATH of the Father on the Son part of it ... so like the older "Ransom paid to the Devil" theory, it still needs work to be Scriptural. Until then ...

CHRISTUS VICTOR ... Jesus died to obtain the VICTORY that Scripture affirms that He obtained.
Nothing wrong with Christus Victor or the "theory" thereof-a denial of the cross and bloody sacrifice of Messiah-which makes it faulty and we are talking past each other-you-the WRATH-me-the SUFFERING-and if you are not willing to read up for yourself then I can't help you.

--Hence there is a trajectory from unease with penal substitution to a denial
of the sovereign rule of God over the cross, and thence, we may presume, the
world. In the more frank writers, this trajectory emerges clearly. J. Denny
Weaver, for example, in arguing for a non-violent view of the atonement
which he terms “narrative Christus Victor,” sees that to succeed he must
remove the cross from the plan and purpose of God.


He explains that Jesus
was not sent with the intention that he should die, that his death was not
the will of God, and that it was neither required nor desired by God:


In narrative Christus Victor, Jesus’ mission is certainly not about tricking the
devil. Neither did the Father send him for the specific purpose of dying, nor was
his mission about death
. . . . And since Jesus’ mission was to make the reign
of God visible, his death was not the will of God as it would be if it is a debt
payment owed to God.


In narrative Christus Victor, the death of Jesus is clearly
the responsibility of the forces of evil, and it is not needed by or aimed at God.42
Yet in terms of the metaphysics of the divine relationship with creation,
even this view is unsustainable. So long as God sustains the world in which
39 Joanne Carlson Brown and Rebecca Parker, “For God So Loved the World?,” in Christianity,
Patriarchy, and Abuse: A Feminist Critique (ed. Joannne Carlson Brown and Carole R. Bohn;
New York: Pilgrim, 1989) 1–30 (p. 2). 40 Ibid. 18. 41 Hans Boersma, Violence, Hospitality, and the Cross (Grand Rapids: Baker, 2004) 41; cf. p. 117. 42 J. Denny Weaver, The Nonviolent Atonement (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2001) 132.
One Line Long
penal substitution: a response to recent criticisms 85

the Son suffers, then in a strong sense he wills the suffering of the Son.

If
he does not stop history as the first blow is about to be struck, then he wills
that the Son suffers. There is something that prevents him from intervening
to rescue his beloved Son, some purpose he intends to achieve through the
suffering, and therefore a strong sense in which even such a diminished god
as Weaver’s wills the suffering.

If someone else had wrested from God his
work in sustaining the world, if we lived and moved and had our being elsewhere, then perhaps we could say that God did not will the suffering of the
Son.

But if purposed redemptive suffering is problematic, then on any view
where God maintains some kind of control of his creation, even in a limited
fashion at arm’s length, the feminist criticism finds its target. And that target
is not just penal substitution.

We therefore need to ask about the criticism itself. Is it valid? It is evidently not so with regard to penal substitutionary atonement.
According to
penal substitution, the cross does not have the character simply of suffering,
but of necessary penal suffering for a good end. It is in this sense violent, but
not reducible to the single category of violence. The cross was violent, but
there was more to it than merely an act of violence. We can understand this
if we consider scenarios in which a father and his adult son together purpose
that the son should suffer. Imagine, for example, the father who directs teams
of Médecins Sans Frontières, sending his son into an area where he and the
son know that the son may suffer greatly. The father wills to send the son,
and the son wills to go. There is no injustice here, because the purpose is
good and both parties are willing.


The same applies in the case of penal substitution. In fact, the feminist criticism really only applies when we deny
penal substitution, because it is then that we are in danger of denying the
necessity of the suffering of the Son.

According to penal substitution the
necessity of punishment arises from God’s own nature and his divine government. He is bound only by who he is, by faithfulness to himself.43 On the
other hand, if we opt for some kind of voluntarist account wherein the sufferings of the Son is not a necessity arising from divine justice, then we are
left with a very difficult question, in fact with the feminists’ question at its
most acute.

If God can freely remit sins, we must ask, why did the Father send
the Son purposing his death, as Acts 2:23 says? The more deeply we understand the Trinity, the love of the Father for the Son, the more we will ask why
a loving Father would lay the burden of suffering on his eternally beloved
Son. Penal substitution preserves a necessity, which alone explains why this
needed to happen as part of God’s saving plan. Remove the necessity, deny
penal substitution, and then the suffering of the Son is unjustifiable.



penal Share
/ˈpinl/
/ˈpinəl/
IPA guide
Anything described as penal has something to do with legal punishment. Prisons are one important part of a country's penal system.

Whenever you see the adjective penal, you'll know it has to do with court-ordered punishment. A government's penal code, for example, is a list of crimes and the punishments imposed for each of them. You might notice how similar penal is to the word penalty — in fact, they both stem from the same Latin word, poena, and the Greek root poine, both of which mean "punishment."

Definitions of penal
adjective of or relating to punishment
“penal reform”
“penal code”
adjective subject to punishment by law
“a penal offense”
synonyms: punishable
illegal
prohibited by law or by official or accepted rules
adjective serving as or designed to impose punishment
“penal servitude”
synonyms:
punitive, punitory
inflicting punishment

Have a great day.
 
We have similar reasons for rejecting PSA and in my research much like yours the biggest reason for my rejection of the doctrine is its an assault on the Good and Loving character and nature of the Tri-Unity of God. There is no getting around the fact this teaching divides and causes seperation between the Father and the Son. So at its core teaching its anti- Christian, anti- God, anti- Tri-Unity, anti-Biblical and anti-Truth. Its deceptive.

My motto is Theology begins with God- the Study of God. When we are wrong about God it shows up in our doctrines we hold near and dear to us. I think of Theology as a mountain top and the Capstone on the Pyramid where at the Top is God. All doctrine flows down from the Top out of that Capstone. So how one thinks about God with directly impact his/her beliefs. For example we can see extremes in the following belief systems/religions.

Isalm- infidels
Jews- the Law, rituals
Catholics- Peter, Popes, Priests Righteousness by the Law,
Protestants- the opposite of the above- the 5 solas

The above is an oversimplification to make the point.



Not on me if you don't want to listen.
 
Nothing wrong with Christus Victor or the "theory" thereof-a denial of the cross and bloody sacrifice of Messiah-which makes it faulty and we are talking past each other-you-the WRATH-me-the SUFFERING-and if you are not willing to read up for yourself then I can't help you.

--Hence there is a trajectory from unease with penal substitution to a denial
of the sovereign rule of God over the cross, and thence, we may presume, the
world. In the more frank writers, this trajectory emerges clearly. J. Denny
Weaver, for example, in arguing for a non-violent view of the atonement
which he terms “narrative Christus Victor,” sees that to succeed he must
remove the cross from the plan and purpose of God.

He explains that Jesus
was not sent with the intention that he should die, that his death was not
the will of God, and that it was neither required nor desired by God:


In narrative Christus Victor, Jesus’ mission is certainly not about tricking the
devil. Neither did the Father send him for the specific purpose of dying, nor was
his mission about death
. . . . And since Jesus’ mission was to make the reign
of God visible, his death was not the will of God as it would be if it is a debt
payment owed to God.


In narrative Christus Victor, the death of Jesus is clearly
the responsibility of the forces of evil, and it is not needed by or aimed at God.42
Yet in terms of the metaphysics of the divine relationship with creation,
even this view is unsustainable. So long as God sustains the world in which
39 Joanne Carlson Brown and Rebecca Parker, “For God So Loved the World?,” in Christianity,
Patriarchy, and Abuse: A Feminist Critique (ed. Joannne Carlson Brown and Carole R. Bohn;
New York: Pilgrim, 1989) 1–30 (p. 2). 40 Ibid. 18. 41 Hans Boersma, Violence, Hospitality, and the Cross (Grand Rapids: Baker, 2004) 41; cf. p. 117. 42 J. Denny Weaver, The Nonviolent Atonement (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2001) 132.
One Line Long
penal substitution: a response to recent criticisms 85

the Son suffers, then in a strong sense he wills the suffering of the Son.

If
he does not stop history as the first blow is about to be struck, then he wills
that the Son suffers. There is something that prevents him from intervening
to rescue his beloved Son, some purpose he intends to achieve through the
suffering, and therefore a strong sense in which even such a diminished god
as Weaver’s wills the suffering.

If someone else had wrested from God his
work in sustaining the world, if we lived and moved and had our being elsewhere, then perhaps we could say that God did not will the suffering of the
Son.

But if purposed redemptive suffering is problematic, then on any view
where God maintains some kind of control of his creation, even in a limited
fashion at arm’s length, the feminist criticism finds its target. And that target
is not just penal substitution.

We therefore need to ask about the criticism itself. Is it valid? It is evidently not so with regard to penal substitutionary atonement.
According to
penal substitution, the cross does not have the character simply of suffering,
but of necessary penal suffering for a good end. It is in this sense violent, but
not reducible to the single category of violence. The cross was violent, but
there was more to it than merely an act of violence. We can understand this
if we consider scenarios in which a father and his adult son together purpose
that the son should suffer. Imagine, for example, the father who directs teams
of Médecins Sans Frontières, sending his son into an area where he and the
son know that the son may suffer greatly. The father wills to send the son,
and the son wills to go. There is no injustice here, because the purpose is
good and both parties are willing.


The same applies in the case of penal substitution. In fact, the feminist criticism really only applies when we deny
penal substitution, because it is then that we are in danger of denying the
necessity of the suffering of the Son.

According to penal substitution the
necessity of punishment arises from God’s own nature and his divine government. He is bound only by who he is, by faithfulness to himself.43 On the
other hand, if we opt for some kind of voluntarist account wherein the sufferings of the Son is not a necessity arising from divine justice, then we are
left with a very difficult question, in fact with the feminists’ question at its
most acute.

If God can freely remit sins, we must ask, why did the Father send
the Son purposing his death, as Acts 2:23 says? The more deeply we understand the Trinity, the love of the Father for the Son, the more we will ask why
a loving Father would lay the burden of suffering on his eternally beloved
Son. Penal substitution preserves a necessity, which alone explains why this
needed to happen as part of God’s saving plan. Remove the necessity, deny
penal substitution, and then the suffering of the Son is unjustifiable.



penal Share
/ˈpinl/
/ˈpinəl/
IPA guide
Anything described as penal has something to do with legal punishment. Prisons are one important part of a country's penal system.

Whenever you see the adjective penal, you'll know it has to do with court-ordered punishment. A government's penal code, for example, is a list of crimes and the punishments imposed for each of them. You might notice how similar penal is to the word penalty — in fact, they both stem from the same Latin word, poena, and the Greek root poine, both of which mean "punishment."

Definitions of penal
adjective of or relating to punishment
“penal reform”
“penal code”
adjective subject to punishment by law
“a penal offense”
synonyms: punishable
illegal
prohibited by law or by official or accepted rules
adjective serving as or designed to impose punishment
“penal servitude”
synonyms:
punitive, punitory
inflicting punishment

Have a great day.
this is a misrepresentation of Christus Victor theory of the Atonement.

see below guests and members.

 
I have studied this topic in depth daily for over 5 years now and have acquired a library full of Theology books on the topic of the Atonement. There is nothing new you can link me to or a position I have not read on the topic. The same with the Trinity and the 2 natures in Christ.

And all 3 are linked to a right understanding of Christs sacrifice for sin. The Trinity, 2 natures in Christ and the Atonement all work together in the Atonement and the gospel message.

hope this helps !!!
 
this is a misrepresentation of Christus Victor theory of the Atonement.
No misrepresentation-
Hence there is a trajectory from unease with penal substitution to a denial
of the sovereign rule of God over the cross, and thence, we may presume, the
world. In the more frank writers, this trajectory emerges clearly. J. Denny
Weaver, for example, in arguing for a non-violent view of the atonement
which he terms “narrative Christus Victor,” sees that to succeed he must
remove the cross from the plan and purpose of God. He explains that Jesus
was not sent with the intention that he should die, that his death was not
the will of God, and that it was neither required nor desired by God:
In narrative Christus Victor, Jesus’ mission is certainly not about tricking the
devil. Neither did the Father send him for the specific purpose of dying, nor was
his mission about death. . . . And since Jesus’ mission was to make the reign
of God visible, his death was not the will of God as it would be if it is a debt
payment owed to God. In narrative Christus Victor, the death of Jesus is clearly
the responsibility of the forces of evil, and it is not needed by or aimed at God.42
Yet in terms of the metaphysics of the divine relationship with creation,
even this view is unsustainable. So long as God sustains the world in which
39 Joanne Carlson Brown and Rebecca Parker, “For God So Loved the World?,” in Christianity,
Patriarchy, and Abuse: A Feminist Critique (ed. Joannne Carlson Brown and Carole R. Bohn;
New York: Pilgrim, 1989) 1–30 (p. 2). 40 Ibid. 18. 41 Hans Boersma, Violence, Hospitality, and the Cross (Grand Rapids: Baker, 2004) 41; cf. p. 117. 42 J. Denny Weaver, The Nonviolent Atonement (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2001) 132.
One Line Long
penal substitution: a response to recent criticisms 85
the Son suffers, then in a strong sense he wills the suffering of the Son. If
he does not stop history as the first blow is about to be struck, then he wills
that the Son suffers. There is something that prevents him from intervening
to rescue his beloved Son, some purpose he intends to achieve through the
suffering, and therefore a strong sense in which even such a diminished god
as Weaver’s wills the suffering. If someone else had wrested from God his
work in sustaining the world, if we lived and moved and had our being elsewhere, then perhaps we could say that God did not will the suffering of the
Son. But if purposed redemptive suffering is problematic, then on any view
where God maintains some kind of control of his creation, even in a limited
fashion at arm’s length, the feminist criticism finds its target. And that target
is not just penal substitution.
We therefore need to ask about the criticism itself. Is it valid? It is evidently not so with regard to penal substitutionary atonement. According to
penal substitution, the cross does not have the character simply of suffering,
but of necessary penal suffering for a good end. It is in this sense violent, but
not reducible to the single category of violence. The cross was violent, but
there was more to it than merely an act of violence. We can understand this
if we consider scenarios in which a father and his adult son together purpose
that the son should suffer. Imagine, for example, the father who directs teams
of Médecins Sans Frontières, sending his son into an area where he and the
son know that the son may suffer greatly. The father wills to send the son,
and the son wills to go. There is no injustice here, because the purpose is
good and both parties are willing. The same applies in the case of penal substitution. In fact, the feminist criticism really only applies when we deny
penal substitution, because it is then that we are in danger of denying the
necessity of the suffering of the Son. According to penal substitution the
necessity of punishment arises from God’s own nature and his divine government. He is bound only by who he is, by faithfulness to himself.43 On the
other hand, if we opt for some kind of voluntarist account wherein the suffering of the Son is not a necessity arising from divine justice, then we are
left with a very difficult question, in fact with the feminists’ question at its
most acute. If God can freely remit sins, we must ask, why did the Father send
the Son purposing his death, as Acts 2:23 says? The more deeply we understand the Trinity, the love of the Father for the Son, the more we will ask why
a loving Father would lay the burden of suffering on his eternally beloved
Son. Penal substitution preserves a necessity, which alone explains why this
needed to happen as part of God’s saving plan. Remove the necessity, deny
penal substitution, and then the suffering of the Son is unjustifiable. The
feminists’ criticism attains its full force, because the Father wills the suffering of the Son for no necessary reason.
Christus Victor, for example, taken by itself without penal substitution,
does not explain why Christ needed to suffer like this. Deny penal substitution
43 Contra Green and Baker: “Within a penal substitution model, God’s ability to love and relate
to humans is circumscribed by something outside of God—that is, an abstract concept of justice
instructs God as to how God must behave” (Recovering 147).
86 journal of the evangelical theological society
and Christus Victor is hamstrung. Hence it is that in Col 2:13–15 the victory
over the rulers and authorities is accomplished by forensic means, by the
cancellation of the legal bond (ceirovgrafon; Col 2:14). Victory is understood
by Paul in legal terms. Penal substitution is central because of its explanatory power with regard to the justice of the other models of the atonement.
Note that such a claim affirms rather than denies the existence of other
models, but it also affirms the centrality of penal substitutionary atonement
to them. Without penal substitution, the feminists who reject Christianity
are right that the Father has no sufficient reason to inflict suffering on the
Son. A cross without penal substitution therefore would indeed mandate the
unjustified infliction of suffering on children, because it would have no basis
in justice.

vi. conclusion

It is no exaggeration to say that proponents of penal substitution are
currently charged with advocating a biblically unfounded, systematically misleading, and pastorally lethal doctrine. If the attack is simply on a caricature
of the doctrine, all well and good. Then the way forward is simple: the critics
need to say that they do believe in penal substitution itself and just not in
warped forms of it. But if the accusation is indeed an accusation against
penal substitution itself, as it surely is, then I fear that evangelicals in the
UK Alliance and elsewhere cannot simply carry on as they are. I am mindful both of the injunctions of the Lord Jesus Christ to seek peace, and of the
ways in which he and his apostles make clear that there are issues over
which division is necessary. Does not the present debate over penal substitutionary atonement fall into this category of issues that require separation?
I find it impossible to agree with those who maintain that the debate is just
an intramural one which can be conducted within the evangelical family. It
is hard to maintain this when it has been acknowledged by all parties that
we are arguing about who God is, about the creedal doctrine of the Trinity,
about the consequences of sin, about how we are saved, and about views which
are held to encourage the abuse of women and children. So long as these
issues are the issues, and I believe that they have been rightly identified,
then I cannot see how those who disagree can remain allied together without
placing unity above truths which are undeniably central to the Christian faith.
 
Yes I agree the absence of wrath speaks very loud against PSA.
@Johann does have a valid point in that MOST of PSA is actually very Biblically supported.
  • I certainly do not deny that there is a PENALTY for our sin.
  • I do not deny that Jesus became sin and died for me, that IN HIM, I might live and be the righteousness of God.
  • I do not deny that Jesus died that I might live.
  • I do not deny that Jesus death atoned for my sins.
There are MANY, MANY more things that I agree with PSA on (and I suspect that you do as well, since they are EXPLICITLY stated in Scripture).
There is ONE DETAIL that is typically heard from a Pulpit or TEACHER more often than a serious THEOLOGY text or Doctrinal Confession that runs something like this: "When Jesus was on that cross, he was suffering the punishment that we deserved; God poured the anger at our sins out on Christ and He suffered the wrath that we would have suffered."

It is that subtle detail. That "TRANSFER OF WRATH" that "GOD THE FATHER ANGRY AT JESUS ON THE CROSS" aspect of PSA ... which is not a core essential to the THEORY ... that lacks Scriptural support and actually VIOLATES some verses of Scripture.

WE need to be clear what we find UNBIBLICAL, but we should also be clear what we do not disagree with.
The inability to separate the two and threaten to break fellowship (or as on another site, to ban me as a heretic) is their problem, not mine.
I stand by my Sola Scriptura. The Bible SAYS what it says and does not say what is not there.
 
@Johann does have a valid point in that MOST of PSA is actually very Biblically supported.
  • I certainly do not deny that there is a PENALTY for our sin.
  • I do not deny that Jesus became sin and died for me, that IN HIM, I might live and be the righteousness of God.
  • I do not deny that Jesus died that I might live.
  • I do not deny that Jesus death atoned for my sins.
There are MANY, MANY more things that I agree with PSA on (and I suspect that you do as well, since they are EXPLICITLY stated in Scripture).
There is ONE DETAIL that is typically heard from a Pulpit or TEACHER more often than a serious THEOLOGY text or Doctrinal Confession that runs something like this: "When Jesus was on that cross, he was suffering the punishment that we deserved; God poured the anger at our sins out on Christ and He suffered the wrath that we would have suffered."

It is that subtle detail. That "TRANSFER OF WRATH" that "GOD THE FATHER ANGRY AT JESUS ON THE CROSS" aspect of PSA ... which is not a core essential to the THEORY ... that lacks Scriptural support and actually VIOLATES some verses of Scripture.

WE need to be clear what we find UNBIBLICAL, but we should also be clear what we do not disagree with.
The inability to separate the two and threaten to break fellowship (or as on another site, to ban me as a heretic) is their problem, not mine.
I stand by my Sola Scriptura. The Bible SAYS what it says and does not say what is not there.
I support PSA 99.999999999 %.

All they have to do is remove Penal from Father to Son and I'm all onboard. One Calvinist @armylngst and I have come very close to reconciling our differences on our forum.

I'm behind everything else that is in the doctrine expect for the penal aspect. :)
 
I have studied this topic in depth daily for over 5 years now and have acquired a library full of Theology books on the topic of the Atonement. There is nothing new you can link me to or a position I have not read on the topic. The same with the Trinity and the 2 natures in Christ.

And all 3 are linked to a right understanding of Christs sacrifice for sin. The Trinity, 2 natures in Christ and the Atonement all work together in the Atonement and the gospel message.

hope this helps !!!
My apologies if you think you have it all nicely tucked up and have nothing further to learn-others are learning and so am I.
 
My apologies if you think you have it all nicely tucked up and have nothing further to learn-others are learning and so am I.
I never said I have nothing to learn. I study each and every day and I’m constantly learning and growing in my faith.

You just misrepresented me like you did with Christus Victor. There are many truths in that theory just as there are many truths within PSA.

hope this helps !!!
 
My apologies if you think you have it all nicely tucked up and have nothing further to learn-others are learning and so am I.

Was Jesus offered as a sacrifice according to the law?

It is very clear that He wasn't.... .Then why the appeal to Penal aspect of the Atonement?

The singular aspect of that the law has in focus is that death frees man from the requirements of the law.
 
Last edited:
I never said I have nothing to learn. I study each and every day and I’m constantly learning and growing in my faith.

You just misrepresented me like you did with Christus Victor. There are many truths in that theory just as there are many truths within PSA.

hope this helps !!!
No misrepresentation on my part-or on you-or Christus Victor-I have the links, verifiable facts and sources, but you are not interested-so with that I rest my case.
 
I just read this online and couldn't help but share it here. One posters response to PSA.

" My question has always been saved, after Jesus has paid your debt, what do you do next? There's nothing in PSA which requires you become like Jesus. There's nothing that says you have to love, or even like, Jesus. You can say, "So long, sucker!" at the base of the Cross as long as you take the gift He's handing out. All that's happened is you're no longer going to hell--then what? Sing a bunch of praise songs? Or don't? It doesn't matter. God is looking at Jesus, not you, so you can pretty much do whatever you want. I think the best atonement theories are the ones which show us how Jesus transforms both us and creation into what God intended everything to be. "

" the only reason to love Jesus in PSA is because He gave you something. If you want to sing "My God is an Awesome God," it's not because He's compassionate or on the side of the poor, or anything intrinsically lovable about Jesus--it's because He gave me a get-out-of-jail-free card. His sole function is to save me from God's wrath and eternal judgment. Jesus is like a teenager who only has friends because He has a car. And why is God so mad at me? Umm--because He created me. Not for anything I've done--God hates me and wants to send me to hell and eternal conscious torment from the moment He made me. My sin simply justifies his Holy anger which is already there, no matter what I do. So, there's no reason to love either God the Father or God the Son for who they are. I guess God the Holy Spirit is pretty nice in this system, but He seems like that quiet uncle who sees the abuse that's going on and takes us to the movies to get away from it for awhile. "
 
Was Jesus offered as a sacrifice according to the law?

It is very clear that He wasn't.... .Then why the appeal to Penal aspect of the Atonement?

The singular aspect of that the law has in focus is that death frees man from the requirements of the law.
Just to save me time--

Hebrews 7 illustrates that Jesus fulfilled the Law of Moses and is superior to that Law. Because Jesus is greater, it only makes sense that we should follow Him. One of the ways that Jesus is greater is in that Jesus’ sacrifice was once for all (Hebrews 7:27).

The Law of Moses prescribed that there would be priests who would make regular, repeated sacrifices on behalf of the people and on behalf of themselves (e.g., Exodus 30:10; Leviticus 9:7). They were involved in all kinds of sacrifices—guilt offerings, sin offerings, offerings of atonement, and more—and making these offerings was such a full-time job that the Levitical priests (the priests were appointed from the tribe of Levi) would not have time to work the land as did people from other tribes. The sacrifices they offered only temporarily covered up the sins of the people.

In contrast to the sacrifices administered by the Levitical priests, Jesus’ sacrifice was once for all (Hebrews 7:27). Jesus also served as a high priest, but He wasn’t from the tribe of Levi (He was from the tribe of Judah), and His high priesthood was very different. Jesus was “holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens” (Hebrews 7:26, NASB).

Because He was sinless, He didn’t have to offer sacrifices for His own guilt. He owed no debt for any sin and could offer Himself as a substitutionary sacrifice for those who did owe God a debt for their sin. The Levitical high priests had to offer sacrifices daily for their sins and those of the people. Jesus did not have to do that. He offered up Himself one time as a sacrifice and in so doing paid for all of the sins of all of the people—He did this “once for all when He offered Himself” (Hebrews 7:27).

The author of Hebrews goes so far as to say that the high priests were “weak” (Hebrews 7:28) because of their own sin, their personal need for sacrifices, and the temporality of the sacrifices they offered. In contrast, Jesus was “perfect,” as He had no sin and therefore no personal need for sacrifices, and the sacrifice He offered was offered only once on the cross.

With that once-for-all sacrifice, Jesus paid for the sin of all humanity. As John puts it, Jesus is the propitiation (or satisfaction) for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). This means that the price Jesus paid was sufficient to satisfy the debt owed. Jesus’ death was a sufficient sacrifice to cover once and for all the sins of everyone. John also explains that Jesus’ sacrifice had to be applied to each individual—by believing in Jesus, each person would have life in His name (John 20:31).

Jesus’ sacrifice was once for all (Hebrews 7:27), and rather than go to a priest who would make a temporary sacrifice for our sin, we are told to simply believe (or trust) in Christ as the One who has resolved the sin issue on our behalf and provided for our forgiveness and new life.

Paul reminds us in Ephesians 2:8–10 that we have been saved by grace through faith, and that salvation is not of our own works or efforts, but it is a gift of God. Because of this, no one can boast in themselves—instead, we should give Him thanks and exalt Him. In saving us He gave us new life and provided us a path to fulfill our design. This was all only made possible because Jesus’ sacrifice was once for all (Hebrews 7:27). Because of His sacrifice, we can have peace with God and are no longer subject to His wrath; instead, we are children who are beloved by our heavenly Father.
GotQuestions

--and do me a favor @praise_yeshua --do look up the word "Penal"
 
I just read this online and couldn't help but share it here. One posters response to PSA.

" My question has always been saved, after Jesus has paid your debt, what do you do next? There's nothing in PSA which requires you become like Jesus. There's nothing that says you have to love, or even like, Jesus. You can say, "So long, sucker!" at the base of the Cross as long as you take the gift He's handing out. All that's happened is you're no longer going to hell--then what? Sing a bunch of praise songs? Or don't? It doesn't matter. God is looking at Jesus, not you, so you can pretty much do whatever you want. I think the best atonement theories are the ones which show us how Jesus transforms both us and creation into what God intended everything to be. "

" the only reason to love Jesus in PSA is because He gave you something. If you want to sing "My God is an Awesome God," it's not because He's compassionate or on the side of the poor, or anything intrinsically lovable about Jesus--it's because He gave me a get-out-of-jail-free card. His sole function is to save me from God's wrath and eternal judgment. Jesus is like a teenager who only has friends because He has a car. And why is God so mad at me? Umm--because He created me. Not for anything I've done--God hates me and wants to send me to hell and eternal conscious torment from the moment He made me. My sin simply justifies his Holy anger which is already there, no matter what I do. So, there's no reason to love either God the Father or God the Son for who they are. I guess God the Holy Spirit is pretty nice in this system, but He seems like that quiet uncle who sees the abuse that's going on and takes us to the movies to get away from it for awhile. "
Same to you as I asked @praise_yeshua --do look up the word "Penal"
 
Same to you as I asked @praise_yeshua --do look up the word "Penal"
“Penal Substitutionary Atonement” (PSA) is a theological term that describes how Jesus took the sins of mankind upon Himself when He died on the cross. God is holy and demands that sin be punished, but He chose to punish Jesus in place of guilty sinners (like you and me). His death appeased the wrath of God against sinners and it also satisfied the need for justice to occur.

Now show me in the N.T. where Jesus was PUNISHED by God ?

That would be penal so where is it ?

Where did Jesus say He was punished by God ( penal ) ?

Where did the Apostles ?

Please do you own homework and find a single passage to substantiate your claim.

I await a BIBLICAL response admitting you cannot find a single verse.

At best its an emotional argument based upon a wrong belief in the atonement taught by the Atoner Himself - Jesus.

1-The word punish is used one time in the NT. (Acts 4:21)
2-The word punished is used four times in the NT. (Acts 22:5, Acts 26:11, 2Th 1:9, 2Pe 2:9)
3-The word punishment is used four times in the NT. (Matt 25:46, 2Cor 2:6, Heb 10:29, 1 Pe 2:14)
4-The word wrath is used 38 times in the NT

Not one time are any of these words used towards our Lord by God.

conclusion: Scripture sides 100 % with my POV. At best the oppositions argument is an argument from silence fallacy.

hope this helps !!!
 
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Same to you as I asked @praise_yeshua --do look up the word "Penal"
"Penal"
occurs 0 time in 0 verse in the KJV.
occurs 0 time in 0 verse in the NKJV.
occurs 0 time in 0 verse in the NLT.
occurs 0 time in 0 verse in the NIV.
occurs 0 time in 0 verse in the ESV.
occurs 0 time in 0 verse in the CSB.
occurs 0 time in 0 verse in the NASB20.
occurs 0 time in 0 verse in the LSB.
occurs 0 time in 0 verse in the NET.
occurs 0 time in 0 verse in the RSV.
occurs 0 time in 0 verse in the ASV.
occurs 0 time in 0 verse in the YLT.
occurs 0 time in 0 verse in the DBY.
occurs 0 time in 0 verse in the WEB.

[sorry, I couldn't resist.] :)
 
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