The 10 most Commonly referred to points against PSA

[civic]

It's how I would define PSA, very fundamentally.

I would be interested in you describing what you think is different.

Then we might be closer than you think as well. I have company over after church today so my time will be limited until later this afternoon.

 

[Diserner]

Then we might be closer than you think as well. I have company over after church today so my time will be limited until later this afternoon.

No, problem take your time.

If you in fact, have a wrong idea of what PSA is, then you are in fact, believing in PSA without knowing it.


But let me explain what I see are the differences:

Logically, if you ransom someone with a substitution so that they can pass over your sins as a sacrifice, that logically entails some things:

1. Sin is something that requires a certain bad condition (defined, whether someone likes the word or not, by definition as "punishment").

2. There is a legal system of some kind whereby the ransom is being made, X is being offered for Y on the basis of Z. Otherwise my toenail can ransom the sins of the world, it's all random.

3. To truly be substituted for something, one must fully take its place. There is no generic brand substitute here, where something completely different or of less worth is traded.


Now how does that relate to my objections:

See, here is your theological system as I understand it:

1. Yes, sins deserve the wrath of God as a punishment and that is what happens to sinners.

2. No, Jesus does not take the wrath of God as a punishment when Jesus is substituted as a sacrificial ransom so God can pass over sins.


Now, we have a logical problem here: sinners on the one hand experience X, but Jesus, when he is substituted, experiences Y instead.

Jesus does not experience any actual correlation or relation to what sinners are going to experience.


Let me put it another way, as an illustration:

The judge has condemned someone to the electric chair for murder. The murderer's best friend steps in and says "I will substitute myself for him." Under a human system, this is considered unjust, but let's just go along with it to illustrate what substitution really means.

Now the murderer says to his best friend, "Man, are you sure? That's a big price to pay, your very life. You don't have to do this for me man, I deserve it." And his friend responds, "No, I love you completely, I'm willing to make this substitution as your ransom."

Now the judge straps his friend to the electric chair, fires up the generator, everyone is there watching. The murderer sheds tears and keeps saying, "You don't have to do this man! I deserve it!" The friend says, "No, I will make this substitution for you."

Now the most remarkable thing happens. The electrocutioner, instead of pulling the lever to bring in the electricity, just jumps up and down shouting "Abracadabra! Abracadabra!! Abracadabra!!!" Then, he releases the friend from the chair.

The friend turns to the murderer and smiles. "There! I substituted for you as a ransom!" The murderer is however, quite bewildered understandably. "I'm glad you're alive, and didn't have to suffer... but, how was that any real substitution? You didn't get what I was going to get?!"

This, exactly, is your understanding of substitution to me—some kind of weird shell game where nothing is actually substituted.

Abracadabra!

And for that reason, I would believe you truly reject PSA while somehow thinking you can doublespeak with its terminology.

You know, like the Calvinist believes in "free will."

 

[Johann]

Not ransom

(atonement payment, ransom)kofer-kofer nafsho (life price, atoning payment for his nefesh)-kofer (ransom payment, satisfaction)-For the pidyon [ransom] of their nefesh is costly-

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own derech (way; see Prov 16:25); and Hashem hath laid on him [Moshiach] the avon (iniquity, the guilt that separates from G-d) of us all.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased Hashem to bruise him; He hath put him to suffering; when Thou shalt make his nefesh an asham offering for sin, he (Moshiach) shall see zera [see Psalm 16 and Yn 1:12 OJBC], He shall prolong his yamim (days) and the chefetz Hashem (pleasure, will of Hashem) shall prosper in his [Moshiach's] hand.

 

[armylngst]

If you want to say that the wrath came from man I'm onboard and that our sin was put upon Him on the cross and He took our punishment inflicted by man. But it was not the Father inflicting the punishment it was man. I can accept that "theory ". I think like you said on the old forum we were pretty close to coming to an agreement. Maybe its just semantics with you and I on the wrath part.

It's not God's punishment on Jesus, but on the sin. It does seem to be semantics. But do remember, all of the theories have part in the atonement, but PSA is where all the other aspects find their meaning. And the P is for penal, which is short for penalty. Our penalty that we face for sin is death. Jesus took that upon Himself, our substitute, and paid that penalty for us. So as He died, we die in Him. He arose, and we arise anew in Him. And you said that we were pretty close to an agreement, and I agreed, seeing it as more of a semantic/visual thing.

 

[armylngst]

Stick to your guns and don't water down PSA and make a pact with the devil.

What civic is espousing is not PSA, and don't let him think it is.

If he could wrap his mind around who the wrath fits in properly here, then he could get over that hurdle. That is the only thing standing between him and understanding the substitution that occurred. Too many people get hung up and amplify wrath, that they lose what the substitution means. What that did for us.

 

[armylngst]

(atonement payment, ransom)kofer-kofer nafsho (life price, atoning payment for his nefesh)-kofer (ransom payment, satisfaction)-For the pidyon [ransom] of their nefesh is costly-

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own derech (way; see Prov 16:25); and Hashem hath laid on him [Moshiach] the avon (iniquity, the guilt that separates from G-d) of us all.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased Hashem to bruise him; He hath put him to suffering; when Thou shalt make his nefesh an asham offering for sin, he (Moshiach) shall see zera [see Psalm 16 and Yn 1:12 OJBC], He shall prolong his yamim (days) and the chefetz Hashem (pleasure, will of Hashem) shall prosper in his [Moshiach's] hand.

The point was that the verse used did not speak of ransom. It is not in that verse. The issue with ransom is that it is used to say that God had to pay a ransom to Satan, as though Satan was the one who was offended by us, so God has to make payment to Satan in order to free us. However, it is God whom we have offended and not Satan. Satan has no power over God, and most certainly cannot demand ransom of God.

 

[Johann]

No, problem take your time.

RANSOM/REDEEM

I. OLD TESTAMENT

A. There are primarily two Hebrew legal terms which convey this concept.

1. Ga'al (BDB 145 I, KB 169 I), which basically means "to free by means of a price paid." A form of the term go'el adds to the concept a personal intermediary, usually a family member (i.e., kinsman redeemer). This cultural aspect of the right to buy back objects, animals, land (cf. Leviticus 25,27), or relatives (cf. Ruth 4:14; Isa. 29:22) is transferred theologically to YHWH's deliverance of Israel from Egypt (cf. Exod. 6:6; 15:13; Ps. 74:2; 77:15; Jer. 31:11). He becomes "the Redeemer" (cf. Job 19:25; Ps. 19:14; 78:35; Pro. 23:11; Isa. 41:14; 43:14; 44:6,24; 47:4; 48:17; 49:7,26; 54:5,8; 59:20; 60:16; 63:16; Jer. 50:34).

2. Padah (BDB 804, KB 911), which basically means "to deliver" or "to rescue."

a. the redemption of the firstborn (Exod. 13:13-15 and Num. 18:15-17)

b. physical redemption is contrasted with spiritual redemption (Ps. 49:7,8,15)

c. YHWH will redeem Israel from their sin and rebellion (Ps. 130:7-8)

B. The theological concept involves several related items.

1. There is a need, a bondage, a forfeiting, an imprisonment.

a. physical

b. social

c. spiritual (cf. Ps. 130:8)

2. A price must be paid for freedom, release, and restoration.

a. of the nation of Israel (cf. Deut. 7:8)

b. of the individual (cf. Job 19:25-27; 33:28; Isaiah 53)

3. Someone must act as intermediary and benefactor. In ga'al this one is usually a family member or near kin (i.e., go'el, BDB 145).

4. YHWH often describes Himself in familial terms.

a. Father

b. Husband

c. Near Kin Redeemer/Avenger Redemption was secured through YHWH's personal agency; a price was paid, and redemption was achieved!

II. NEW TESTAMENT

A. There are several terms used to convey the theological concept.

1. Agorazō (cf. 1 Cor. 6:20; 7:23; 2 Pet. 2:1; Rev. 5:9; 14:3-4). This is a commercial term which reflects a price paid for something. We are blood-bought people who do not control our own lives. We belong to Christ.

2. Exagorazō (cf. Gal. 3:13; 4:5; Eph. 5:16; Col. 4:5). This is also a commercial term. It reflects Jesus' substitutionary death on our behalf. Jesus bore the "curse" of a performance-based law (i.e., Mosaic Law, cf. Eph. 2:14-16; Col. 2:14), which sinful humans could not accomplish. He bore the curse (cf. Deut. 21:23) for us all (cf. Mark 10:45; 2 Cor. 5:21)! In Jesus, God's justice and love merge into full forgiveness, acceptance, and access!

3. Luō, "to set free"

a. Lutron, "a price paid" (cf. Matt. 20:28; Mark 10:45). These are powerful words from Jesus' own mouth concerning the purpose of His coming, to be the Savior of the world by paying a sin-debt He did not owe (cf. John 1:29).

b. Lutroō, "to release"

(1) to redeem Israel (Luke 24:21)

(2) to give Himself to redeem and purify a people (Titus 2:14)

(3) to be a sinless substitute (1 Pet. 1:18-19)

c. Lutrōsis, "redemption," "deliverance," or "liberation"

(1) Zacharias' prophecy about Jesus, Luke 1:68

(2) Anna's praise to God for Jesus, Luke 2:38

(3) Jesus' better, once offered sacrifice, Heb. 9:12

4. Apolytrōsis

a. redemption at the Second Coming (cf. Acts 3:19-21)

(1) Luke 21:28

(2) Romans 8:23

(3) Ephesians 1:14; 4:30

(4) Hebrews 9:15

b. redemption in Christ's death

(1) Romans 3:24

(2) 1 Corinthians 1:30

(3) Ephesians 1:7

(4) Colossians 1:14

5. Antilytron (cf. 1 Tim. 2:6). This is a crucial text (as is Titus 2:14) which links release to Jesus' substitutionary death on the cross. He is the one and only acceptable sacrifice, the one who dies for "all" (cf. John 1:29; 3:16-17; 4:42; 1 Tim. 2:4; 4:10; Titus 2:11; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14).

B. The theological concept in the NT.

1. Mankind is enslaved to sin (cf. John 8:34; Rom. 3:10-18,23; 6:23).

2. Mankind's bondage to sin has been revealed by the OT Mosaic Law (cf. Galatians 3) and Jesus' Sermon on the Mount (cf. Matthew 5-7). Human performance has become a death sentence (cf. Col. 2:14).

3. Jesus, the sinless lamb of God, has come and died in our place (cf. Mark 10:45; John 1:29; 2 Cor. 5:21). We have been purchased from sin so that we might serve God (cf. Romans 6).

4. By implication both YHWH and Jesus are "near kin" who act on our behalf. This continues the familial metaphors (i.e., father, husband, son, brother, near kin).

5. Redemption was not a price paid to Satan (i.e., Medieval theology), but the reconciliation of God's word and God's justice with God's love and full provision in Christ. At the cross peace was restored, human rebellion was forgiven, the image of God in mankind is now fully functional again in intimate fellowship!

6. There is still a future aspect of redemption (cf. Rom. 8:23; Eph. 1:14; 4:30), which involves our resurrection bodies and personal intimacy with the Triune God . Our resurrected bodies will be like His (cf. 1 John 3:2). He had a physical body, but with an extra dimensional aspect. It is hard to define the paradox of 1 Cor. 15:12-19 with 1 Cor. 15:35-58. Obviously there is a physical, earthly body and there will be a heavenly, spiritual body. Jesus had both!
file:///C:/Program%20Files%20(x86)/2019%20Computer%20Bible%20Study%20Library%20--%20English/HTML/special_topics/ransom-redeem.html#:~:text=RANSOM/REDEEM,Jesus%20had%20both!
Johann.

 

[Johann]

YHWH's ETERNAL REDEMPTIVE PLAN

I must admit to you the reader that I am biased at this point. My systematic theology is not Calvinism or Dispensationalism, but it is Great Commission evangelicalism (cf. Matt. 28:18-20; Luke 24:46-47; Acts 1:8).

I believe God had an eternal plan for the redemption of all mankind (e.g., Gen. 3:15; 12:3; Exod 19:5-6; Jer. 31:31-34; Ezekiel 18; 36:22-39; Acts 2:23; 3:18; 4:28; 13:29; Rom. 3:9-18,19-20,21-31), all those created in His image and likeness (cf. Gen. 1:26-27). The covenants are united in Christ (cf. Gal. 3:28-29; Col. 3:11). Jesus is the mystery of God, hidden but now revealed (cf. Eph. 2:11-3:13)! The NT gospel, not Israel, is the key to Scripture.

This pre-understanding colors all my interpretations of Scripture. I read all texts through it! It is surely a bias (all interpreters have them!), but it is a scripturally-informed presupposition.

The focus of Genesis 1-2 is YHWH creating a place where He and His highest creation, mankind, can fellowship (cf. Gen. 1:26,27; 3:8). Physical creation is a stage for this interpersonal divine agenda.

1. St. Augustine characterized it as a divine-shaped hole in every person that can be filled only by God Himself.

2. C.S. Lewis called this planet "the touched planet," (i.e., prepared by God for humans).



The OT has many hints of this divine agenda.

1. Genesis 3:15 is the first promise that YHWH will not leave mankind in the terrible mess of sin and rebellion. It does not refer to Israel because there is no Israel, or covenant people, until the call of Abraham in Genesis 12.

2. Genesis 12:1-3 is YHWH's initial call and revelation to Abraham which will become the covenant people, Israel. But even in this initial call, God had an eye to the whole world. Notice Gen. 12:3!

3. In Exodus 20 (Deuteronomy 5) YHWH gave His law to Moses to guide His special people. Notice that in Exod. 19:5-6, YHWH reveals to Moses the unique relationship Israel will have. But also notice that they were chosen, like Abraham, to bless the world (cf. Exod. 19:5, "for all the earth is Mine"). Israel was to be a mechanism for the nations to know YHWH and be attracted to Him. Tragically they failed (cf. Ezek. 36:22-38).

4. In 1 Kings 8 Solomon dedicates the temple so all can come to YHWH (cf. 1 Kgs. 8:43,60).

5. In the Psalms – 22:27-28; 66:4; 86:9 (Rev. 15:4)

6. Through the prophets YHWH continued to reveal His universal redemptive plans.

a. Isaiah – 2:2-4; 12:4-5; 25:6-9; 42:6,10-12; 45:22; 49:5-6; 51:4-5; 56:6-8; 60:1-3; 66:18,23

b. Jeremiah – 3:17; 4:2; 16:19

c. Micah 4:1-3

d. Malachi 1:11

This universal emphasis is facilitated by the emergence of the "new covenant" (cf. Jer. 31:31-34; Ezek. 36:22-38), which focuses on the mercy of YHWH, not the performance of fallen humans. There is a "new heart," a "new mind," and a "new spirit." Obedience is crucial but it is internal, not an external code only (cf. Rom. 3:21-31).

The NT clearly reinforces the universal redemptive plan in several ways.

1. The Great Commission – Matt. 28:18-20; Luke 24:46-47; Acts 1:8

2. God's eternal plan (i.e., predestined) – Luke 22:22; Acts 2:23; 3:18; 4:28; 13:29

3. God wants all humans to be saved – John 3:16; 4:42; Acts 10:34-35; 1 Tim. 2:4-6; Titus 2:11; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14- Not Universalism.

4. Christ unites the OT and NT – Gal. 3:28-29; Eph. 2:11-3:13; Col. 3:11. All human barriers and distinctions are removed in Christ. Jesus is the "mystery of God," hidden but now revealed (Eph. 2:11-3:13).

The NT focuses on Jesus, not Israel. The gospel, not a nationality or geographical region, is central. Israel was the first revelation but Jesus is the ultimate revelation (cf. Matt. 5:17-48).
file:///C:/Program%20Files%20(x86)/2019%20Computer%20Bible%20Study%20Library%20--%20English/HTML/special_topics/YHWHs_plan.html#:~:text=Copyright%20%C2%A9%202018%20Bible%20Lessons%20International

 

[Johann]

The point was that the verse used did not speak of ransom. It is not in that verse. The issue with ransom is that it is used to say that God had to pay a ransom to Satan, as though Satan was the one who was offended by us, so God has to make payment to Satan in order to free us. However, it is God whom we have offended and not Satan. Satan has no power over God, and most certainly cannot demand ransom of God.

ATONEMENT (OT)

The Hebrew root (BDB 497, KB 493) combines several OT images.

the holiness of God which is offended by human rebellion
the cost of rebellion is death (cf. Ezek. 18:4,20)
the life of a sacrificial animal substituted for the death penalty of sinful human beings

The basic meaning of the root is "to cover" (it can also mean "ransom", cf. Exodus 30:16), which may best be illustrated by the "Day of Atonement" or "Day of Covering" (i.e., Leviticus 16).

YHWH dwelt between the wings of the Cherubim on the ark of the covenant. Inside the gold box were the laws given to Moses by YHWH on Mt. Sinai. As the High Priest sprinkled blood on the lid of the ark, it symbolically obscured God's eyes from the Law.

The perfect and eternal blood of the covenant (see the NT book of Hebrews) was the innocent blood of Jesus (cf. John 1:29; 2 Cor. 5:21).

The NT term "propitiation" also relates to the lid of the mercy seat on the ark of the covenant.

SPECIAL TOPIC: MERCY SEAT

MERCY SEAT -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

www.freebiblecommentary.org

EXODUS 25-31

 

[Johann]

To me, these are all serious problems with the Penal Substitution view of the atonement. I do not deny that Jesus died as our substitute or even that it was God’s will to “crush and bruise” him (Isa 53:10). But we don’t need to imagine that the Father vented his wrath against sin on Jesus to make sense of these facts. One can (and I think should) rather see this as the Father offering up his Son to the principalities and powers to be bruised and crushed in our place, for this unsurpassable expression of self-sacrificial love is what was needed to destroy the devil and his works and to thus set humans free, reconciling them to the Father.

https://feeds.bible.org/steve_cole/hebrews/cole_hebrews_26.mp3

The theology that Peter describes as “the righteous for the unrighteous” is often referred to as Christ’s substitutionary atonement or his penal substitution.

As to Christ’s substitutionary atonement, we mean that in his suffering and death on the cross, Christ took our place in dying the death we deserved for our sins. The idea in the term “substitutionary atonement” (or, “vicarious atonement”) is that our sins and their penalty were transferred to Christ on the cross, where he died in our place so that we would not have to die but, instead, could live eternally. Thus, Christ, the sinless one, took our sins on himself. This is what our text here in 1 Peter 3:18a says and means, “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous.” In addition to our text, many other Scriptures affirm this truth, for example…

2 Corinthians 5:15, “He died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.”

2 Corinthians 5:21, “For our sake, he (God) made him who knew no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we would become the righteousness of God.”

1 Peter 2:24, “He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness.”

Galatians 3:13, “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree.’”

Isaiah 53:6, “The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.”

Hebrews 9:28, “Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.”

Christ’s substitutionary atonement also includes what is often called, in theological terms, Christ’s penal substitution. Penal substitution conveys the idea of punishment, that in Christ’s substitution for us on the cross he bore God’s punishment for our sins, in our place. He took the punishment we rightly deserved and which he did not deserve at all (1 Pet. 2:24). The perfectly “righteous” one suffered once for the sins of the “unrighteous.” By doing so, Christ satisfied God’s holy and just requirements against our sin. Thus, of course, by Christ’s death and by faith in him we are forgiven, set free from the punishment for our sins, and reconciled to God (Rom. 5:10). Such is the manifold grace and unbounding love of God for us, that he would send his one and only Son to die for us when we were still sinners (Rom. 5:8).

3. Christ suffered for our reconciliation: “…that he might bring us to God” (3:18c). Only through the death of Christ on the cross can we be reconciled to God. This was the great purpose in Christ substitutionary atonement that (1) we could be brought near to God (Eph. 2:13), (2) we could have new life in him (2 Cor. 5:17; Jn. 20:31; Eph. 4:24; Rom. 6:4), (3) we could be united with God (Jn. 14:20; Jn. 17:20-23), (4) we could know God (Jn. 17:3; Phil. 3:10; Rom. 12:2), (5) we could be reconciled to God through the death of his Son (Rom. 5:10), (6) we could live for God (Mk. 12:28-31; Rom. 14:8), and (7) we could have fellowship with God (1 Jn. 1:3).

Through his substitutionary death on the cross, Christ opened up the way for us to come to God through faith in him. Indeed, there is no other way to God. Jesus himself said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (Jn. 14:6). The gospel is exclusive in its scope. By this I mean that Christ is the only way to God through the salvation that he offers by faith in his substitutionary death. This is an unpopular teaching today.

Society wants us to believe that there are many ways to God through all kinds of beliefs and religious systems, but Jesus teaches otherwise. He said, 13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few” (Matthew 7:13-14). All roads do not lead to heaven. Jesus is the only way, as the following Scriptures (and many others) affirm:

Acts 4:12, “And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Rom. 10:9, “For, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

John 3:36, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

1 Tim. 2:5, “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”

Through faith in Christ we now have access to God (Eph. 2:18-19; 3:12; Rom. 5:2; Heb. 10:19-22). Through faith in Christ we now have been been brought into a vital, living, intimate, and personal, and eternal relationship with God, such that we can now come into God’s presence with confidence, to his very throne of grace (Heb. 4:16). And all of this has been made possible because of Christ’s substitutionary death on the cross for us, by which he, as our Mediator (1 Tim. 2:5), has brought us to God.

7. The Cross And Christ’s Suffering For Sins (1 Peter 3:18-22) | Bible.org

As with all study of Scripture, in order to rightly understand the teaching of this passage we need to read it in its context. The theme that cycles throughout 1 Peter is that of suffering as a Christian (cf. 1 Peter 2:15, 18-25; 3:8-17), undoubtedly because his readers were suffering for their...

bible.org

The onus is not on me to explain why I believe in PSA-it is on those AGAINST it-like Cain and Abel-one with a bloody sacrifice-the other bloodless. Might as well come with a pair of scissors and cut out all the "WRATH" scriptures.

 

[civic]

The wrath of God (Isaiah 53)

Within the study of the doctrine on PSA, the central O.T. passage it comes from is found in Isaiah 53. Let us look at how the N.T. quotes Isaiah 53 and see how the N.T. writers viewed the passages and used them in the N.T. and what language from Isaiah 53 they applied to Jesus in the N.T. regarding suffering.

In doing so, a few things stand out. There is no penal aspect/ language Isaiah used that is carried over in the N.T. but that of substitution. Isaiah 53:4- WE (not God) considered Him punished by God. The following NT passages quote Isaiah 53: Matthew 8:14-17; Mark 15:27-32; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21; and 1 Peter 2:19-25. Not one of them uses any penal language where PSA gets its doctrine from in Isaiah 53 in the New Testament.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Diserner]

Yeah, Jesus took my punishment.

He took what I deserve.

That's what the NT says, that's what the OT says, and that's the Gospel.

Thank you Jesus!!

 

[civic]

Yes Jesus took the punishment, wrath from the Jews who killed Him that I deserved instead of Him who knew no sin. The Just for the unjust. The Holy for the unholy. He suffered torture and death by the hands of wicked men in my place.

Who was responsible for putting Jesus to death, was it God or the Jewish Leaders ?

The Bible places it all on the Jews below.

Matthew 16:21-From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life


Matthew 20:18-19 -“We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified.

Matthew 27:1- When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

Matthew 27:35- When they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments by casting lots.

Mark 15:24- And they crucified Him. They also divided His garments by casting lots to decide what each of them would take

Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross

Acts 4:10,11 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 7:52 Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him

Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him

1 Corinthians 2:8- None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

color coded for easy Biblical understanding.

 

[Diserner]

So criminals enact justice?

Not the righteous Judge?

Nah.

 

[civic]

So criminals enact justice?

Not the righteous Judge?

Nah.

Thats not dealing with all the scriptures I just posted, thats evading them with a question.

I just provided a dozen passages to substantiate my point is biblical. And they were all ignored.

 

[civic]

“The Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son” (John 5:22).

hope this helps !!!

 

[Johann]

“The Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son” (John 5:22).

hope this helps !!!

Joh 3:36 The one trusting in the son has [life eternal]; but the one resisting the son shall not see the life, but the anger of God remains upon him.
The wrath of God (ὀργὴ τοῦ Θεοῦ)

Both ὀργὴ and θυμός are used in the New Testament for wrath or anger, and without any commonly observed distinction. Ὁργη denotes a deeper and more permanent sentiment; a settled habit of mind; while θυμός is a more turbulent, but temporary agitation.

Both words are used in the phrase wrath of God, which commonly denotes a distinct manifestation of God's judgment (Rom_1:18; Rom_3:5; Rom_9:22; Rom_12:19). Ὁργὴ (not θυμός) also appears in the phrase the wrath to come (Mat_3:7; Luk_3:7; 1Th_2:16, etc.). Compare wrath of the Lamb (Rev_6:16).
Abideth (μένει)

The present tense.
As the believer hath life, so the unbeliever hath wrath abiding on him. He lives continually in an economy which is alienated from God, and which, in itself, must be habitually the subject of God's displeasure and indignation.
VWS

(7) God's attitude toward the unbelieving is that of "wrath" [ orgee (G3709)], that is, righteous displeasure, whose judicial expression is called "vengeance" [ ekdikeesis (G1557)]. While it repays [ apodidoosi (G591)] the unbelieving by excluding them from "seeing life," it does so still more awfully by leaving them under the weight of God's settled, abiding displeasure. And yet, with such teaching sounding in their ears, there are those who confidently teach that there never was, is not, nor can be anything in God against sinners, needing to be removed by Christ, but solely in men against God. Having formed to themselves certain notions of the love and unchangeableness of God, which they think incompatible with there being anything in Him against the sinner needing to be removed in order to his salvation, they make the Scripture to bend to these notions, instead of adjusting their own views to its indisputable teaching.

Cannot agree with you here-jumping around the "wrath references" makes me wonder.

 

[civic]

Joh 3:36 The one trusting in the son has [life eternal]; but the one resisting the son shall not see the life, but the anger of God remains upon him.
The wrath of God (ὀργὴ τοῦ Θεοῦ)

Both ὀργὴ and θυμός are used in the New Testament for wrath or anger, and without any commonly observed distinction. Ὁργη denotes a deeper and more permanent sentiment; a settled habit of mind; while θυμός is a more turbulent, but temporary agitation.

Both words are used in the phrase wrath of God, which commonly denotes a distinct manifestation of God's judgment (Rom_1:18; Rom_3:5; Rom_9:22; Rom_12:19). Ὁργὴ (not θυμός) also appears in the phrase the wrath to come (Mat_3:7; Luk_3:7; 1Th_2:16, etc.). Compare wrath of the Lamb (Rev_6:16).
Abideth (μένει)

The present tense.
As the believer hath life, so the unbeliever hath wrath abiding on him. He lives continually in an economy which is alienated from God, and which, in itself, must be habitually the subject of God's displeasure and indignation.
VWS

(7) God's attitude toward the unbelieving is that of "wrath" [ orgee (G3709)], that is, righteous displeasure, whose judicial expression is called "vengeance" [ ekdikeesis (G1557)]. While it repays [ apodidoosi (G591)] the unbelieving by excluding them from "seeing life," it does so still more awfully by leaving them under the weight of God's settled, abiding displeasure. And yet, with such teaching sounding in their ears, there are those who confidently teach that there never was, is not, nor can be anything in God against sinners, needing to be removed by Christ, but solely in men against God. Having formed to themselves certain notions of the love and unchangeableness of God, which they think incompatible with there being anything in Him against the sinner needing to be removed in order to his salvation, they make the Scripture to bend to these notions, instead of adjusting their own views to its indisputable teaching.

Cannot agree with you here-jumping around the "wrath references" makes me wonder.

NEVER and I repeat NEVER does the BIBLE ever say there was wrath from the Father to the Son.

Wrath always falls upon the unrighteous, wicked,reprobate, evil, God haters and never on the Holy, Righteous, Sinless.

Its made up.

 

[Johann]

NEVER and I repeat NEVER does the BIBLE ever say there was wrath from the Father to the Son.

Wrath always falls upon the unrighteous, wicked,reprobate, evil, God haters and never on the Holy, Righteous, Sinless.

Its made up.

Read the post again-that is not what I have said.

 

[civic]

Wrath from God is not required for the forgiveness of sins, that is a misnomer.

Exodus 34:6 Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in faithfulness and truth;

Isaiah 48:9 For the sake of My name I will delay My wrath; for the sake of My praise I will restrain it, so that you will not be cut off.

Psalm 78:38 And yet He was compassionate; He forgave their iniquity and did not destroy them. He often restrained His anger and did not unleash His full wrath.

Psalm 85:1-3 You, Lord, showed favor to your land;you restored the fortunes of Jacob.2 You forgave the iniquity of your people and covered all their sins. 3 You set aside all your wrath and turned from your fierce anger.

1 Corinthians 5:7 say the following: For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. This means just like the firstborn were spared by the blood on the posts of their doors from God’s wrath so to are we passed over Gods wrath from the blood of Jesus. The blood of Jesus provides forgiveness of sins and God’s wrath like with the Israelites are passed over and it falls upon the wicked, not those covered and protected by the blood of the Lamb. Gods’ wrath as Romans 1 declares is still being poured out upon sin and ungodliness and the bowls of Gods wrath and punishment is still yet to come. So, if Jesus bore Gods’ wrath for sinners, then why is God’s wrath still being poured out now and in the future if in the Atonement Gods wrath was satisfied? The fact is Jesus did not bear God’s wrath on the cross because it still exists and is being poured out in the bowls of Revelation before His 2nd Coming.

Romans 1:18- The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness

Romans 5:9- Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!

Colossians 3:6-Because of these, the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.

Ephesians 5:6- Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience

Thessalonians 1:10- and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

conclusion: Wrath always falls upon the unrighteous, wicked,reprobate, evil, God haters and never on the Holy, Righteous, Sinless.

hope this helps !!!