The 10 most Commonly referred to points against PSA

[civic]

How did God view His own death, atonement for sin ?

We see God the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation.

1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom

2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom

3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15Substitution, Ransom

4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51

5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28

6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11

7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution

8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28

Who put Jesus to death, who was responsible ?

Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Acts 2:36
“Therefore, let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

Acts 4:10- Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…

Acts 5:30- The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree

Matthew 16:21
From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life

Matthew 20:18-19
“We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. And on the third day He will be raised to life."

Matthew 27:1- When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

Matthew 27:35- When they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments by casting lots.

Mark 15:24- And they crucified Him. They also divided His garments by casting lots to decide what each of them would take


conclusion: The One who made Atonement for my sins completely left out PSA and not once mentioned it or hinted at it in any way, shape or form. He said His death was a substitution, ransom, Passover, sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- expiation. There was no wrath from the Father to the Son. The anger, wrath, vengeance, retribution as the Apostles taught in Acts and Jesus taught in the gospels came from evil and wicked men.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

The word “expiation” does not appear in the New Testament ( Neither does the word Trinity for that matter- emphasis mine ), but it does accurately describe an aspect of the sacrifice of Christ on our behalf. Expiation means “to cover sin” and/or “to cleanse sin.” Expiation reflects the idea that the negative and degrading effects of our sin are removed through the grace of God. Another word for expiation is atonement, and truly this is one of the results of Jesus’ atoning death for us.got?

Through expiation—the work of Christ on the cross for us—the sin of all those who would ever believe in Christ was cancelled. That cancellation is eternal in its consequence, even though sin is still present in the temporal sense. In other words, believers are delivered from the penalty and power of sin, but not the presence of it. Justification is the term for being delivered from the penalty of sin. This is a one-time act wherein the sinner is justified and made holy and righteous in the eyes of God who exchanged our sinful natures for the righteousness of Christ at the cross (2 Corinthians 5:21). Sanctification is the ongoing process whereby believers are delivered from the power of sin in their lives and are enabled by the new nature to resist and turn away from it. Glorification is when we are removed from the very presence of sin, which will only occur once we leave this world and are in heaven. All these processes—justification, sanctification and glorification—are made possible through the expiation or cancellation of sin.

hope this helps !!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Not bad-accept for the fact I am not a KJV-"onlyism"

Josephus also used other Greek translations than the LXX, most notably the proto-Lucian texts [WTOT:60, n.38].

He also praises the pagan king, who received the Greek translation of the Pentateuch (Ant 1.10-13):

No. You're a Hebrew Onlyist. I simply made the connect to my own experience.

I don't know if it is worth my time to discuss this with you if you're going to ignore the vast majority of what I said. I ask that you deal with what I stated. I never used Josephus as my primary source. I used the NT. I simply appealed to Josephus to make the point that He embraced the Greek language. He did so to deal with his audience. Which were JEWS and GENTILES. He had to. The Jews he was dealing with largely interacted in this world we live in with the Greek language. You can't deny this. I'm not saying the Hebrew wasn't used. It was. However, it was limited and the texts they used did not survive in large quantities through to the time of the Apostles. The Hebrew text did not support the huge explosion of Christianity throughout the known world. The Greek OT did.

As would be expected, the Greek-language and/or Egpytian-provenanced pieces demonstrate high LXX usage, but such usage is NOT confined to these texts. Below is a list of partial citations/allusions in the Pseudepigrapha to passages in the LXX. (The Apocrypha, of course, is PART of the LXX.)

More guilt by association tactics from you.... The Hebrew text is equally, if not more...... guilty of such things.

Did you just use the word Apocrypha? Do you know what language you just referenced?

Please don't tell me that you believe the "Apocrypha" has no origins in the Hebrew language? Jesus quoted the Apocrypha.

The "הספרים החיצונים" means what to you?

I believe you are lost in your argument. I ask that you respond to what I wrote and treat the competing texts with the same measure.

Your holding your thumb on the scales....

This brings us to a perfect example of the superiority of the Greek OT.

Pro 16:11 The balance of the yoke is righteousness with the Lord; and his works are righteous measures.

 

[civic]

No. You're a Hebrew Onlyist. I simply made the connect to my own experience.

I don't know if it is worth my time to discuss this with you if you're going to ignore the vast majority of what I said. I ask that you deal with what I stated. I never used Josephus as my primary source. I used the NT. I simply appealed to Josephus to make the point that He embraced the Greek language. He did so to deal with his audience. Which were JEWS and GENTILES. He had to. The Jews he was dealing with largely interacted in this world we live in with the Greek language. You can't deny this. I'm not saying the Hebrew wasn't used. It was. However, it was limited and the texts they used did not survive in large quantities through to the time of the Apostles. The Hebrew text did not support the huge explosion of Christianity throughout the known world. The Greek OT did.



More guilt by association tactics from you.... The Hebrew text is equally, if not more...... guilty of such things.

Did you just use the word Apocrypha? Do you know what language you just referenced?

Please don't tell me that you believe the "Apocrypha" has no origins in the Hebrew language? Jesus quoted the Apocrypha.

The "הספרים החיצונים" means what to you?

I believe you are lost in your argument. I ask that you respond to what I wrote and treat the competing texts with the same measure.

Your holding your thumb on the scales....

This brings us to a perfect example of the superiority of the Greek OT.

Pro 16:11 The balance of the yoke is righteousness with the Lord; and his works are righteous measures.

we are use to this type of arguments over the years from the C's and non trins. Its the same exact reasoning to defend their position with strawmen and fallacies.

 

[civic]

Old news to you-but it is making my case.

And you want to follow this mans teachings ?

Calvin spelled out his theologically reinforced vengeance in a personal letter:

---

“I am persuaded that it is not without the special will of God that, apart from any verdict of the judges, the criminals have endured protracted torment at the hands of the executioner.” - Calvin's letter to Farel on 24 July (for more words directly from Calvin’s pen, read Selected Works of John Calvin)

“Servetus offers to come hither, if it be agreeable to me. But I am unwilling to pledge my word for his safety, for if he shall come, I shall never permit him to depart alive, provided my authority be of any avail.” - Letter to Farel, 13 February 1546

“Servetus . . . suffered the penalty due to his heresies, but was it by my will? Certainly his arrogance destroyed him not less than his impiety. And what crime was it of mine if our Council, at my exhortation, indeed, but in conformity with the opinion of several Churches, took vengeance on his execrable blasphemies?” - Calvin

John Calvin argued:

“Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death, knowingly and willingly incur their guilt. It is not human authority that speaks, it is God who speaks and prescribes a perpetual rule for His Church.”

John Calvin followed Augustine’s biblical justification for burning heretics. Augustine excused extreme measures through his interpretation of Jesus’ Great Banquet parable in Luke 14:16-24. When the master could not fill up his banquet in the parable, he commanded his servants in Luke 14:23 “to compel people to come so that my house will be filled.” Augustine and Calvin believed burning heretics would “compel” more people to enter their house of God. Interpreting “compulsion” as a license to kill without consideration for Jesus’ other teaching to “love your enemies” is a major hermeneutical error. Any part of Jesus’ teaching should be interpreted in light of the whole. reinactingtheway.

hope this helps !!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Correct-Messiah is my dunamis/excousia and what I deduce from Scriptures is not my "view" or "theory"

More Greek. Got to love it........

 

[Johann]

More Greek. Got to love it........

You should try it-not that difficult.
The problem is with the morphologies and syntax-perfect-Imperfect and Hebrew is not that difficult either -Hiphael-Piel-Infinitive-Perfect-Imperfect-Qal-

 

[civic]

You should try it-not that difficult.

Can you read, translate Greek into English? Yes or no

Can you speak Greek and understand those who speak Greek ?

Do you know attic and koine Greek is not the same as modern Greek ?

 

[praise_yeshua]

You should try it-not that difficult.

I believe you realizes that I'm just "poking" you a little on your appeal to the superiority of Hebrew sources relative to derived Greek usages.

If Greek was not a capable language, the apostles would have never employed it to properly express the Scriptures to humanity.

Which is basically what men like Tovia Singer preach.

I know you know more than most about this subject. Even though we often disagree on such things, I enjoy discussing this with you. Thank you!

 

[Johann]

Can you read, translate Greek into English? Yes or no

Can you speak Greek and understand those who speak Greek ?

Do you know attic and koine Greek is not the same as modern Greek ?

I have a Koine Greek Bible on my desk-read it and can translate it.

I don't speak Greek -we converse in English

I am not interested in modern Greek or classical Greek-I often make my own studies and compare it with scholarly work-not the other way around, as with most.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Can you read, translate Greek into English? Yes or no

Can you speak Greek and understand those who speak Greek ?

Do you know attic and koine Greek is not the same as modern Greek ?

If you know modern Greek, it's not that hard to understand koine. Just as if you know modern Hebrew, it's not that hard to understand Biblical Hebrew.

 

[Johann]

Which is basically what men like Tovia Singer preach.

I believe you realizes that I'm just "poking" you a little on your appeal to the superiority of Hebrew sources relative to derived Greek usages.

If Greek was not a capable language, the apostles would have never employed it to properly express the Scriptures to humanity.

Which is basically what men like Tovia Singer preach.

I know you know more than most about this subject. Even though we often disagree on such things, I enjoy discussing this with you. Thank you!

Shalom Achi-late her in South Africa.
I am very familiar with Tovia Singer.
J.

 

[Johann]

I know you know more than most about this subject. Even though we often disagree on such things, I enjoy discussing this with you. Thank you!

As I enjoy discussing things with you brother.
J.

 

[praise_yeshua]

If you know modern Greek, it's not that hard to understand koine. Just as if you know modern Hebrew, it's not that hard to understand Biblical Hebrew.

There are connections but the "devil is in the details".

Nuance is important and it is usually what gets "lost in translation". However, there are more reasons that nuance is lost throughout the ages and in various cultures. No culture is immune to the progressive nature of languages. Not even Hebrew. Generally speaking, the relevance of Hebrew Idioms are largely over stated. It seems that every new translation seeks to bring "something new to the table".

 

[Johann]

There are connections but the "devil is in the details".

Nuance is important and it is usually what gets "lost in translation". However, there are more reasons that nuance is lost throughout the ages and in various cultures. No culture is immune to the progressive nature of languages. Not even Hebrew. Generally speaking, the relevance of Hebrew Idioms are largely over stated. It seems that every new translation seeks to bring "something new to the table".

Are you saying Hebrew is "evolving"-if so, the Koine Greek is in the process of "evolving" like the Quran.
To be honest with you-I hardly read the LXX-just try reading Isaiah 53 and see for yourself.

DSS-

Isaiah 53 from Scroll 1Q Isaiaha

1 Who has believed our message?

To whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed?

2 For he grew up before him as a tender plant,

and as a root out of dry ground.

He has no good looks or majesty.

When we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He was despised,

and rejected by men;

and a man of suffering,

and acquainted with disease.

He was despised as one from whom men hide their face;

and we didn’t respect him.



4 Surely he has borne our sickness,

and carried our suffering;

yet we considered him plagued,

struck by God, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions.

He was crushed for our iniquities.

The punishment that brought our peace was on him;

and by his wounds we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray.

Everyone has turned to his own way;

and Yahweh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.



7 He was oppressed,

yet when he was afflicted he didn’t open his mouth.

As a lamb that is led to the slaughter,

and as a sheep that before its shearers is silent,

so he didn’t open his mouth.

8 He was taken away by oppression and judgment;

and as for his generation,

who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living

and stricken for the disobedience of my people?

9 They made his grave with the wicked,

and with a rich man rich people in his death;

although he had done no violence,

nor was any deceit in his mouth.



10 Yet it pleased Yahweh to bruise him.

He has caused him to suffer.

When you make his soul an offering for sin,

he will see his offspring.

He will prolong his days,

and Yahweh’s pleasure will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,

he will see the light and be satisfied.

My righteous servant will justify many by the knowledge of himself;

and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion with the great,

and he will divide the plunder with the strong;

because he poured out his soul to death,

and was counted with the transgressors;

yet he bore the sins of many,

and made intercession for the transgressors.



Isaiah 53 from Scroll 1Q Isaiahb

1 Who has believed our message?

To whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed?

2 For he grew up before him as a tender plant,

and as a root out of dry ground.

He has no good looks or majesty.

When we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He was despised,

and rejected by men;

a man of suffering,

and acquainted with disease.

And he was despised as one from whom men hide their face;

and we didn’t respect him.



4 Surely he has borne our sickness,

and carried our suffering;

yet we considered him plagued,

struck by God, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions.

And he was crushed for our iniquities.

The punishment that brought our peace was on him;

and by his wounds we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray.

Everyone has turned to his own way;

and Yahweh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.



7 He was oppressed,

yet when he was afflicted he didn’t open his mouth.

As a lamb that is led to the slaughter,

and as a sheep that before its shearers is silent,

so he didn’t open his mouth.

8 He was taken away by oppression and judgment;

and as for his generation,

who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living

and stricken for the disobedience of my people?

9 They made his grave with the wicked,

and with a rich man in his death;

although he had done no violence,

nor was any deceit in his mouth.



10 Yet it pleased Yahweh to bruise him.

He has caused him to suffer.

When you make his soul an offering for sin,

he will see his offspring.

He will prolong his days,

and Yahweh’s pleasure will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,

he will see the light[1] and be satisfied.

My righteous servant will justify many by the knowledge of himself;

and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion with the great,

and he will divide the plunder with the strong;

because he poured out his soul to death,

and was counted with the transgressors;

yet he bore the sins of many,

and made intercession for the transgressors their transgressions.



Isaiah 53 from Scroll 4Q57 Isaiahc

1 Who has believed our message?

To whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed?

2 For he grew up before him as a tender plant,

and as a root out of dry ground.

He has no good looks or majesty.

When we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He was despised,

and rejected by men;

a man of suffering,

and acquainted with disease.

He was despised as one from whom men hide their face;

and we didn’t respect him.

[..]

6 All we like sheep have gone astray.

Everyone has turned to his own way;

and Yahweh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

[..]

8 He was taken away by oppression and judgment;

and as for his generation,

who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living

and stricken for the disobedience of my people?



Isaiah 53 from Scroll 4Q58 Isaiahd

8 He was taken away by oppression and judgment;

and as for his generation,

who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living

and stricken for the disobedience of my people?

9 They made his grave with the wicked,

and with a rich man in his death;

although he had done no violence,

nor was any deceit in his mouth.



10 Yet it pleased Yahweh to bruise him.

He has caused him to suffer.

When you make his soul an offering for sin,

he will see his offspring.

He will prolong his days,

and Yahweh’s pleasure will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,

he will see the light[1] and be satisfied.

My righteous servant will justify many by the knowledge of himself;

and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion with the great,

and he will divide the plunder with the strong;

because he poured out his soul to death,

and was counted with the transgressors;

yet he bore the sins of many,

and made intercession for the transgressors.






[1] Wording is the same in this scroll and the LXX, as well as the translation of the World English Bible, although the MT omits “the light.”


[1] The word “light,” present in the World English Bible, is in the scroll and the LXX but not in the MT.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Are you saying Hebrew is "evolving"-if so, the Koine Greek is in the process of "evolving" like the Quran.
To be honest with you-I hardly read the LXX-just try reading Isaiah 53 and see for yourself.

DSS-

Isaiah 53 from Scroll 1Q Isaiaha

1 Who has believed our message?

To whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed?

2 For he grew up before him as a tender plant,

and as a root out of dry ground.

He has no good looks or majesty.

When we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He was despised,

and rejected by men;

and a man of suffering,

and acquainted with disease.

He was despised as one from whom men hide their face;

and we didn’t respect him.



4 Surely he has borne our sickness,

and carried our suffering;

yet we considered him plagued,

struck by God, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions.

He was crushed for our iniquities.

The punishment that brought our peace was on him;

and by his wounds we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray.

Everyone has turned to his own way;

and Yahweh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.



7 He was oppressed,

yet when he was afflicted he didn’t open his mouth.

As a lamb that is led to the slaughter,

and as a sheep that before its shearers is silent,

so he didn’t open his mouth.

8 He was taken away by oppression and judgment;

and as for his generation,

who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living

and stricken for the disobedience of my people?

9 They made his grave with the wicked,

and with a rich man rich people in his death;

although he had done no violence,

nor was any deceit in his mouth.



10 Yet it pleased Yahweh to bruise him.

He has caused him to suffer.

When you make his soul an offering for sin,

he will see his offspring.

He will prolong his days,

and Yahweh’s pleasure will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,

he will see the light and be satisfied.

My righteous servant will justify many by the knowledge of himself;

and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion with the great,

and he will divide the plunder with the strong;

because he poured out his soul to death,

and was counted with the transgressors;

yet he bore the sins of many,

and made intercession for the transgressors.



Isaiah 53 from Scroll 1Q Isaiahb

1 Who has believed our message?

To whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed?

2 For he grew up before him as a tender plant,

and as a root out of dry ground.

He has no good looks or majesty.

When we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He was despised,

and rejected by men;

a man of suffering,

and acquainted with disease.

And he was despised as one from whom men hide their face;

and we didn’t respect him.



4 Surely he has borne our sickness,

and carried our suffering;

yet we considered him plagued,

struck by God, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions.

And he was crushed for our iniquities.

The punishment that brought our peace was on him;

and by his wounds we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray.

Everyone has turned to his own way;

and Yahweh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.



7 He was oppressed,

yet when he was afflicted he didn’t open his mouth.

As a lamb that is led to the slaughter,

and as a sheep that before its shearers is silent,

so he didn’t open his mouth.

8 He was taken away by oppression and judgment;

and as for his generation,

who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living

and stricken for the disobedience of my people?

9 They made his grave with the wicked,

and with a rich man in his death;

although he had done no violence,

nor was any deceit in his mouth.



10 Yet it pleased Yahweh to bruise him.

He has caused him to suffer.

When you make his soul an offering for sin,

he will see his offspring.

He will prolong his days,

and Yahweh’s pleasure will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,

he will see the light[1] and be satisfied.

My righteous servant will justify many by the knowledge of himself;

and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion with the great,

and he will divide the plunder with the strong;

because he poured out his soul to death,

and was counted with the transgressors;

yet he bore the sins of many,

and made intercession for the transgressors their transgressions.



Isaiah 53 from Scroll 4Q57 Isaiahc

1 Who has believed our message?

To whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed?

2 For he grew up before him as a tender plant,

and as a root out of dry ground.

He has no good looks or majesty.

When we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He was despised,

and rejected by men;

a man of suffering,

and acquainted with disease.

He was despised as one from whom men hide their face;

and we didn’t respect him.

[..]

6 All we like sheep have gone astray.

Everyone has turned to his own way;

and Yahweh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

[..]

8 He was taken away by oppression and judgment;

and as for his generation,

who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living

and stricken for the disobedience of my people?



Isaiah 53 from Scroll 4Q58 Isaiahd

8 He was taken away by oppression and judgment;

and as for his generation,

who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living

and stricken for the disobedience of my people?

9 They made his grave with the wicked,

and with a rich man in his death;

although he had done no violence,

nor was any deceit in his mouth.



10 Yet it pleased Yahweh to bruise him.

He has caused him to suffer.

When you make his soul an offering for sin,

he will see his offspring.

He will prolong his days,

and Yahweh’s pleasure will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,

he will see the light[1] and be satisfied.

My righteous servant will justify many by the knowledge of himself;

and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion with the great,

and he will divide the plunder with the strong;

because he poured out his soul to death,

and was counted with the transgressors;

yet he bore the sins of many,

and made intercession for the transgressors.






[1] Wording is the same in this scroll and the LXX, as well as the translation of the World English Bible, although the MT omits “the light.”


[1] The word “light,” present in the World English Bible, is in the scroll and the LXX but not in the MT.

Hebrew .... HAS... evolved. It has changed and we can not fully quantity to what degree it has changed.
I believe there is more historical stability with the Greek language than with Hebrew. Especially relative to the historical evidence of the Greek OT.

 

[Diserner]

the historical evidence of the Greek OT.

I'd say we can get every major truth from the LXX all the same.

But no reason to idolize it.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'd say we can get every major truth from the LXX all the same.

But no reason to idolize it.

I'm not. My God is alive and well and not confined to pen and paper. I know Him personally.

There is no reason to idolize a 9th century reconstruction in the MT.

 

[praise_yeshua]

To quote Troyer....

The problem with a recension is that one does not know what is the original form and what the recension. Hence, is the paleo-Hebrew Tetragrammaton secondary – a part of the recension – or proof of the Old Greek text? This debate has not yet been solved."

 

[civic]

1. Does God really need to appease his wrath with a blood sacrifice in order to forgive us? If so, does this mean that the law of “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” is the ultimate description of God’s character? And if this is true, what are we to make of Jesus’ teaching that this law is surpassed by the law of love? Not only this, but what are we to make of all the instances in the Bible where God forgives people without demanding a sacrifice (e.g. the prodigal son)?
2. If God’s holiness requires that a sacrifice be made before he can fellowship with sinners, how did Jesus manage to hang out with sinners without a sacrifice, since he is as fully divine and as holy as God the Father?
3. If Jesus’ death allows God the Father to accept us, wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that Jesus reconciles God to us than it is to say Jesus reconciles us to God? Yet the New Testament claims the latter and never the former (e.g. 2 Cor. 5:18-20). In fact, if God loves sinners and yet can’t accept sinners without a sacrifice, wouldn’t it be even more accurate to say that God reconciles God to himself than to say he reconciles us to God? But this is clearly an odd and unbiblical way of speaking.
4. How are we to understand one member of the Trinity (the Father) being wrathful towards another member of the Trinity (the Son), when they are, along with the Holy Spirit, one and the same God? Can God be truly angry with God? Can God actually punish God?
5. If God the father needs someone to “pay the price” for sin, does the Father ever really forgive anyone? Think about it. If you owe me a hundred dollars and I hold you to it unless someone pays me the owed sum, did I really forgive your debt? It seems not, especially since the very concept of forgiveness is about releasing a debt — not collecting it from someone else.
6. Are sin and guilt the sorts of things that can be literally transferred from one party to another? Related to this, how are we to conceive of the Father being angry towards Jesus and justly punishing him when he of course knew Jesus never did anything wrong?
7. If the just punishment for sin is eternal hell (as most Christians have traditionally believed), how does Jesus’ several hours of suffering and his short time in the grave pay for it?
8. If the main thing Jesus came to do was to appease the Father’s wrath by being slain by him for our sin, couldn’t this have been accomplished just as easily when (say) Jesus was a one-year-old boy as when he was a thirty-three year old man? Were Jesus’ life, teachings, healing and deliverance ministry merely a prelude to the one really important thing he did – namely, die? It doesn’t seem to me that the Gospels divide up and prioritize the various aspects of Jesus’ life in this way. (I maintain that everything Jesus did was about one thing – overcoming evil with love. Hence, every aspect of Jesus was centered on atonement — that is, reconciling us to God and freeing us from the devil’s oppression.)
9. To raise a more controversial question, if it’s true that God’s wrath must be appeased by sacrificing his own Son, then don’t we have to conclude that pagans who have throughout history sacrificed their children to appease the gods’ wrath had the right intuition, even if they expressed it in the wrong way?
10. What is the intrinsic connection between what Jesus did on the cross and how we actually live? The Penal Substitution view makes it seem like the real issue in need of resolution is a legal matter in the heavenly realms between God’s holy wrath and our sin. Christ’s death changes how God sees us, but this theory says nothing about how Christ’s death changes us. This is particularly concerning to me because every study done on the subject has demonstrated that for the majority of Americans who believe in Jesus, their belief makes little or no impact on their life. I wonder if the dominance of this legal-transaction view of the atonement might be partly responsible for this tragic state of affairs.

Interpreting the Cross: Guiding Rules of a Cruciform Hermeneutic
Darrin W. Snyder Belousek.

To me, these are all serious problems with the Penal Substitution view of the atonement. I do not deny that Jesus died as our substitute or even that it was God’s will to “crush and bruise” him (Isa 53:10). But we don’t need to imagine that the Father vented his wrath against sin on Jesus to make sense of these facts. One can (and I think should) rather see this as the Father offering up his Son to the principalities and powers to be bruised and crushed in our place, for this unsurpassable expression of self-sacrificial love is what was needed to destroy the devil and his works and to thus set humans free, reconciling them to the Father.

I will add to the OP.

1. God is perfectly just.

2. Since God is perfectly just then He cannot punish an innocent person who is holy, righteous and sinless.

3. Christ was an innocent person.

4. Therefore, God cannot punish Christ.

5. If God cannot punish Christ, penal substitution is false.

hope this helps !!!