praise_yeshua
Active Member
You're living in semantic overlap. When you say that God purposed the event. You are insisting that God created it.
Reconcile the two or become an Arminian.
Taking credit for your salvation
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
You're living in semantic overlap. When you say that God purposed the event. You are insisting that God created it.
Reconcile the two or become an Arminian.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Did I say anything about a synonym? No. I didn't.
civic
Active Member
The Rogue Tomato
Active Member
That's your assumption and reasoning. I do not subscribe to that kind of reasoning. The text says God meant it, which means God determined it. I don't see how creation has anything to do with it. Perhaps you can explain in detail how it requires creation.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
If you're going to just claim it is a paradox of sort, then I'll leave it at that.
However, when you say God purposed it, you basically have three or four options to explain the "how". I've never seen you say anything that makes me think that you hold a position outside the common arguments between Calvinists and Arminians.
Calvinism insists that predestination makes God responsible for all events. This creates culpability for God. "Create" fits your position better than just leaving "meant" (I reject Determined) open for interpretation.
Johann
Active Member
To say that "God purposed the event" means that God had an intentional plan or purpose for the event. It does not necessarily mean that God directly created every aspect of the event in the same way He created the universe. Instead, it reflects the biblical view that God, in His sovereignty, can purpose and direct events while working through human actions and decisions.
By examining these scriptures and the meanings of key terms, we see a comprehensive picture of how God's purposes are established and fulfilled, yet they do not negate human responsibility and actions. This understanding helps clarify the relationship between divine sovereignty and human agency.
This is where they "gotcha" you brother.
Johann
Active Member
Yes-scriptures is paradoxical and tension filled.
### Understanding God's Purpose and Human Responsibility
**1. Distinguishing Between God's Purpose and Human Responsibility:**
The Bible presents a complex interaction between divine sovereignty and human responsibility. While God purposes events according to His will, this does not negate human responsibility or make God the author of sin.
**2. Scriptural Basis for God's Sovereignty and Human Responsibility:**
- **Divine Sovereignty:**
- **Ephesians 1:11**: "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will."
- This verse highlights that God works out everything according to His purpose. The Greek word for "plan" (πρόθεσις, prothesis) indicates an intentional design.
- **Isaiah 46:10**: "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.’"
- This emphasizes God’s sovereign will and plan, which He brings to fulfillment.
- **Human Responsibility:**
- **Acts 2:23**: "This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross."
- This verse shows that while God’s plan was in place, the actions of the people involved were also morally significant and responsible.
- **Genesis 50:20**: "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives."
- Joseph acknowledges his brothers' evil intent while recognizing God's sovereign purpose in the outcome.
**3. Theological Insights:**
Theological perspectives vary on how to reconcile divine sovereignty and human free will. Calvinism and Arminianism offer different explanations, but there are other views as well:
- **Calvinism:** Emphasizes God's absolute sovereignty, often interpreted as predestination that encompasses all events. Critics argue this can imply God is responsible for evil, though proponents insist on a distinction between God's permissive will and decreative will.
- **Arminianism:** Emphasizes human free will and responsibility, with God's foreknowledge not necessarily determining every action. This view avoids attributing the authorship of sin to God.
- **Middle Knowledge (Molinism):** Posits that God knows what free creatures would do under any circumstance, balancing sovereignty and free will without making God the author of sin.
**4. Clarifying "Purpose" vs. "Create":**
The term "purpose" (πρόθεσις, prothesis) in the context of God's will means a deliberate intention or plan. It does not necessarily imply direct causation or creation of every event. Instead, it reflects God’s overarching plan and ability to bring about His desired ends through various means, including human choices.
**Conclusion:**
When you say God "purposed" an event, you are acknowledging His sovereign plan and ability to work all things according to His will. However, this does not equate to God directly creating every event, especially sinful actions. It recognizes that God, in His omniscience and sovereignty, can bring about His purposes without being the author of sin.
Thus, it’s crucial to differentiate between God’s ultimate purposes and the means by which those purposes are realized, which can involve genuine human choices and actions. This approach respects the biblical tension between divine sovereignty and human responsibility.
Hope this provides a balanced response that incorporates scriptural references, theological nuance, and a clear distinction between God's purpose and the implications of direct causation or creation.
Shalom.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
There is no "gotcha". You've been approving of these Calvinists for some time now without realizing they believe exactly what I said.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Commit now to responding to everything I write and I will take this journey concerning your collected comments above. I don't have time now but I will review later.
Johann
Active Member
Far as I can tell there are no "Calvinists" but fellow believers, brothers and sisters IN Christ Jesus.
Johann
Active Member
I will respond cordially if or when you are cordial-if not, I have no interest in any dialogue.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Define what you mean by "cordial". Can you give a specific example of what I said that you will not accept?
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I'm not a Universalist. As much I would like to believe everyone is a brother and sister in Christ. I don't believe that is true anywhere.
However, I can assure that I consider every person is my brother and sister in Adam. In my view, that is reflected clearly in my theology. I don't tell my brothers and sisters in Adam that they are without hope. To me, that is exactly what you seem to support at times. You seem to present a theological system that denies hope to your brother and sisters in Adam.
Correct me if I'm wrong but tell me how I'm wrong.
TibiasDad
Active Member
It means something purposed. God used the brother’s actions to accomplish his purposes.
Doug
Johann
Active Member
I have no problem with this @TibiasDad-I am aware this was to @The Rogue Tomato.
Would you say God is active, or passive in the affairs of the kosmos?
Colossians 1:17 (NIV)
"He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."
John 1:3 (NIV)
"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."
2 Peter 3:7 (NIV)
"By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly."
Psalm 33:6 (NIV)
"By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth."
Psalm 147:15-18 (NIV)
"He sends his command to the earth; his word runs swiftly. He spreads the snow like wool and scatters the frost like ashes. He hurls down his hail like pebbles. Who can withstand his icy blast? He sends his word and melts them; he stirs up his breezes, and the waters flow."
I hold these verses collectively emphasize Jesus' divine authority and power in creation, sustaining the universe, and fulfilling God's purposes through His word.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Of all the ways that God could get Joseph in Egypt, God needed the brothers to sin?
I see these requirements in your statement above.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
It is never "active OR passive". It is both.
At times, God is active. At times God is passive.
Why are you restricting the answer to "either or"?
Johann
Active Member
No-I would not go that far-i.e. God predetermined only the elect should be saved and the non-elect to everlasting damnation.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
John 5:24 - "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
Romans 8:1 - "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Romans 10:9 - "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Acts 4:12 - "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
1 John 5:10-12 - "He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."
Mark 16:16 - "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
John 3:36 - "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
Acts 16:30-31 - "And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."
Ephesians 2:8-9 - "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
1 John 5:13 - "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
I assume you are familiar with the Greek and Hebrew text? The Morphology and Syntax?
Johann
Active Member
Christlike @praise_yeshua-not speaking in a condescendingly manner.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
In my view, this isn't a complete answer.
Predeterming requirements for the elect and the damned does not require that individuals be either chosen or rejected.
I am. I have responded to you several times on this. The impact of Morphology is overstated. Etymology is vastly more important. Most English words come to us "through" or are greatly influenced by Latin. I feel absolutely no need to accept a Latin influence in anything. I've often used the word "mansion" in the KJV to describe how Latin has greatly corrupted our understanding of ancient languages.
Etymology is difficult to construct before the Greek language. Most every single word that comes to any English Bible comes through the Greek language. This why the word Genesis is used by almost every single English speaking person in the world and NOT Bereshit. I'm more than capable of dealing with this topic at any level you would like.
The best method to understand ancient words that are largely lost to history in the Hebrew language is through the Greek language. After all, that is what the apostles did.
Search for how words are translated from the OT to the NT. You will find how these words are translated through their "range" of translation by the apostles.
