Taking credit for your salvation

civic said:
It’s so sad they blame God for the murdering of the innocent and attributing it to His prescriptive will. It’s blasphemy
Click to expand...
I wonder what they will do when it happens to them?

Like Job.... "Blessed be the name of the Lord"?

It is one thing to say "Blessed be the name of the Lord" and it is entirely another to actually believe it.

It is a "equation" they leave out entirely in their lives. They see pleasing God as nothing more than compliance.

Job lived through disaster and realized he didn't mean what He said.
 
Johann said:
Here are ten scriptures that demonstrate God's sovereign control and determinative action in various aspects of human affairs, countering the idea that His sovereignty excludes determination of man's desires and actions:

  1. Proverbs 16:9
    • "The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps."
    • This shows that while man may make plans, it is ultimately God who directs his steps.
  2. Jeremiah 10:23
    • "I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps."
    • This verse highlights that man's path is determined by God.
  3. Psalm 33:10-11
    • "The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; he frustrates the plans of the peoples. The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations."
    • God's sovereign plans override human intentions and desires.
  4. Isaiah 46:9-10
    • "Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’"
    • God's sovereignty includes the declaration and fulfillment of all His purposes.
  5. Proverbs 21:1
    • "The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will."
    • Even the desires and decisions of rulers are directed by God.
  6. Daniel 4:35
    • "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, ‘What have you done?’"
    • God acts according to His will, and no one can question or thwart His actions.
  7. Acts 17:26
    • "And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,"
    • God determines the times and places in which people live.
  8. Ephesians 1:11
    • "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,"
    • God works all things according to His will, indicating a comprehensive sovereignty.
  9. Romans 9:18
    • "So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."
    • God's sovereignty extends to showing mercy and hardening hearts according to His will.
  10. Jeremiah 18:6
    • "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the Lord. Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel."
    • This metaphor indicates God's control over the destinies and actions of people.
These scriptures collectively demonstrate that God's sovereignty encompasses control over human affairs, desires, and decisions, affirming the view that God indeed determines everything, including the desires and actions of man.
Click to expand...
👍
 
Presby02 said:
👍
Click to expand...

Jeremiah 10:23
"I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps."
This verse highlights that man's path is determined by God.

I thought God directed His own?

Here you are insisting that God leads all men. You didn't give much thought to this at all.

@Johann
 
Last edited:
Johann said:
So--in summary, while the text does not explicitly state that God determined the brothers to harm Joseph, it does depict God's providential involvement in the events, ultimately using them for His redemptive purposes.
Click to expand...
Providential involvement does not necessitate predetermination. God’s sovereignty gives him the right to manipulate/control the outcome any way he chooses. Thus, the intents of Joseph’s brother’s actions were over ridden by God’s intents.

Doug
 
TibiasDad said:
Providential involvement does not necessitate predetermination. God’s sovereignty gives him the right to manipulate/control the outcome any way he chooses. Thus, the intents of Joseph’s brother’s actions were over ridden by God’s intents.

Doug
Click to expand...
So--in summary, while the text does not explicitly state that God determined the brothers to harm Joseph, it does depict God's providential involvement in the events, ultimately using them for His redemptive purposes.

I think this is clear enough.
 
TibiasDad said:
He certainly allows “bad things” to happen for the purpose of our good.

Doug
Click to expand...

That is certainly worth of debate. :)

I said "His good" in my quote.

God doesn't need us. My theology revolves around the fact that God doesn't need us. That Grace is actually Grace (I know you believe this).

He allows such for our profit.........

There are many things in this life that requires that we gain experience for ourselves. This creates/fosters the need for us to learn through failure. We bring this upon ourselves. It never comes from the hand of God.

Also, experience can often be passed on ("Cloud of witness"....)

Yet, we often don't value things we get from others. In his weakness, Adam showed that he treasured some things above what was most beneficial for himself. He could have abandoned Eve. Just like Moses could have abandoned Israel when God offered to make of him a great nation. Just like Abraham could have abandoned Sarah's barren womb.

The "experience" we live in this life gives us the opportunity to live as gods among our own. To experience the same emotions and experiences that God experiences with us.
 
praise_yeshua said:
Jeremiah 10:23
"I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps."
This verse highlights that man's path is determined by God.

I thought God directed His own?

Here you are insisting that God leads all men. You didn't give much thought to this at all.

@Johann
Click to expand...
Where have I "insisted" YHVH leads all men? I give everything much thought and since I am fallible, I can make mistakes. Unless this is a ekpeiradzo from your end. And yet--read carefully--@praise_yeshua


Jeremiah 10:23 (Lexham English Bible)
"I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps."

Breakdown and Analysis
"I know" (יָדַעְתִּי | yādaʿtî) YHVH ONLY knows believers-correct?

Lexical Form: יָדַע (yadaʿ)
Parsing: Qal Perfect, first person singular
Meaning: "I know" – This verb expresses certainty and personal knowledge. The perfect tense indicates a completed action, underscoring a firm understanding or realization by the speaker (Jeremiah).
"O Lord" (יְהוָה | Yahweh)

Lexical Form: יהוה (YHWH)
Meaning: This is the personal name of God, often rendered as "LORD" in English translations. It is a vocative expression, directly addressing God.
"that the way of man" (כִּי לֹא לְאָדָם דַּרְכּוֹ | kî lōʾ ləʾādām darkô)

"that" (כִּי | kî)
Lexical Form: כִּי (kî)
Meaning: A conjunction often translated as "that" or "because," introducing a reason or explanation.
"the way" (דֶּרֶךְ | derek)
Lexical Form: דֶּרֶךְ (derek)

Meaning: Path, way, or manner. Here it refers to the course of life or actions of a person.
"of man" (אָדָם | ʾādām)
Lexical Form: אָדָם (ʾādām)

Meaning: Man, human being. This term often emphasizes humanity in general.
"is not in himself" (לֹא לְעִיר | lōʾ bəʾîsh)
Lexical Form: לֹא (lōʾ)
Meaning: Negation, "not".
"in himself" (לְעִיר | bəʾîsh)
Lexical Form: בְּ (bə) + עִיר (ʾîsh)
Meaning: "in" + "man." Combined, it emphasizes that the ability or capacity is not within a person.
"that it is not in man who walks" (לֹא לְעִיר הֹלֵךְ | lōʾ bəʾîsh hôlēk)

"in man" (לְעִיר | bəʾîsh)
Reiteration of the previous phrase, emphasizing humanity.
"who walks" (הֹלֵךְ | hôlēk)
Lexical Form: הָלַךְ (hālak)

Parsing: Qal Active Participle, masculine singular
Meaning: "walking" or "one who walks." The participle form emphasizes ongoing action, indicating a person's journey or conduct in life.
"to direct his steps" (לְכוֹנֵן אֶת-צְעָדָיו | ləkhōnēn ʾet-ṣəʿādāw)

"to direct" (לְכוֹנֵן | ləkhōnēn)
Lexical Form: כּוּן (kûn)
Parsing: Piel Infinitive Construct
Meaning: To establish, prepare, or direct. The Piel stem often conveys an intensive or causative action.
"his steps" (אֶת-צְעָדָיו | ʾet-ṣəʿādāw)
Lexical Form: צְעָד (ṣāʿad)
Meaning: Steps, referring to the specific actions or decisions a person takes.
Interpretation
This verse emphasizes human dependence on God for guidance. It expresses the belief that:


Human Limitations: Humans inherently lack the ability to chart their own course independently of divine direction.

Divine Sovereignty: God is the one who ultimately directs and establishes a person's path.

Theological Implications
Human Dependence: The verse underscores the need for humans to rely on God for guidance and direction in life. It negates self-sufficiency in spiritual and moral matters.

Divine Guidance: God’s sovereignty and involvement in the daily affairs and overall direction of human lives is emphasized, reflecting a deep trust in His wisdom and plan.

Application
Believers are encouraged to seek God’s guidance in their decisions and acknowledge their need for His direction. This fosters humility and a deeper reliance on God's wisdom and plan for one's life.

By examining the Hebrew words and their syntactic roles, we gain a richer understanding of this passage’s emphasis on divine guidance and human dependence.

***************************************************************************************************************************************************
1. John 16:13
"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."

Meaning: This verse highlights the role of the Holy Spirit in guiding believers into all truth, providing divine revelation and understanding of future events.

2. Romans 8:14
"For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God."

Meaning: This passage emphasizes that being led by the Spirit is a characteristic of being a child of God, indicating a relationship where the Spirit provides direction and guidance.

3. Galatians 5:18
"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."

Meaning: Here, Paul contrasts life under the law with life led by the Spirit, suggesting that the Spirit's guidance brings freedom and alignment with God's will.

4. Acts 16:6-7
"Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia. When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to."

Meaning: This passage provides a practical example of the Holy Spirit actively directing the missionary efforts of Paul and his companions, showing the Spirit's involvement in decision-making and guidance.

5. Ezekiel 36:27
"And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws."

Meaning: This prophetic promise speaks of the Holy Spirit being placed within believers to move and enable them to follow God's laws and decrees, illustrating the transformative and guiding power of the Spirit.

These scriptures collectively show that the Holy Spirit plays a crucial role in guiding, directing, and leading believers in their spiritual journey and daily lives.

Would you agree?
 
Johann said:
Where have I "insisted" YHVH leads all men? I give everything much thought and since I am fallible, I can make mistakes. Unless this is a ekpeiradzo from your end. And yet--read carefully--@praise_yeshua


Jeremiah 10:23 (Lexham English Bible)
"I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps."

Breakdown and Analysis
"I know" (יָדַעְתִּי | yādaʿtî) YHVH ONLY knows believers-correct?

Lexical Form: יָדַע (yadaʿ)
Parsing: Qal Perfect, first person singular
Meaning: "I know" – This verb expresses certainty and personal knowledge. The perfect tense indicates a completed action, underscoring a firm understanding or realization by the speaker (Jeremiah).
"O Lord" (יְהוָה | Yahweh)

Lexical Form: יהוה (YHWH)
Meaning: This is the personal name of God, often rendered as "LORD" in English translations. It is a vocative expression, directly addressing God.
"that the way of man" (כִּי לֹא לְאָדָם דַּרְכּוֹ | kî lōʾ ləʾādām darkô)

"that" (כִּי | kî)
Lexical Form: כִּי (kî)
Meaning: A conjunction often translated as "that" or "because," introducing a reason or explanation.
"the way" (דֶּרֶךְ | derek)
Lexical Form: דֶּרֶךְ (derek)

Meaning: Path, way, or manner. Here it refers to the course of life or actions of a person.
"of man" (אָדָם | ʾādām)
Lexical Form: אָדָם (ʾādām)

Meaning: Man, human being. This term often emphasizes humanity in general.
"is not in himself" (לֹא לְעִיר | lōʾ bəʾîsh)
Lexical Form: לֹא (lōʾ)
Meaning: Negation, "not".
"in himself" (לְעִיר | bəʾîsh)
Lexical Form: בְּ (bə) + עִיר (ʾîsh)
Meaning: "in" + "man." Combined, it emphasizes that the ability or capacity is not within a person.
"that it is not in man who walks" (לֹא לְעִיר הֹלֵךְ | lōʾ bəʾîsh hôlēk)

"in man" (לְעִיר | bəʾîsh)
Reiteration of the previous phrase, emphasizing humanity.
"who walks" (הֹלֵךְ | hôlēk)
Lexical Form: הָלַךְ (hālak)

Parsing: Qal Active Participle, masculine singular
Meaning: "walking" or "one who walks." The participle form emphasizes ongoing action, indicating a person's journey or conduct in life.
"to direct his steps" (לְכוֹנֵן אֶת-צְעָדָיו | ləkhōnēn ʾet-ṣəʿādāw)

"to direct" (לְכוֹנֵן | ləkhōnēn)
Lexical Form: כּוּן (kûn)
Parsing: Piel Infinitive Construct
Meaning: To establish, prepare, or direct. The Piel stem often conveys an intensive or causative action.
"his steps" (אֶת-צְעָדָיו | ʾet-ṣəʿādāw)
Lexical Form: צְעָד (ṣāʿad)
Meaning: Steps, referring to the specific actions or decisions a person takes.
Interpretation
This verse emphasizes human dependence on God for guidance. It expresses the belief that:


Human Limitations: Humans inherently lack the ability to chart their own course independently of divine direction.

Divine Sovereignty: God is the one who ultimately directs and establishes a person's path.

Theological Implications
Human Dependence: The verse underscores the need for humans to rely on God for guidance and direction in life. It negates self-sufficiency in spiritual and moral matters.

Divine Guidance: God’s sovereignty and involvement in the daily affairs and overall direction of human lives is emphasized, reflecting a deep trust in His wisdom and plan.

Application
Believers are encouraged to seek God’s guidance in their decisions and acknowledge their need for His direction. This fosters humility and a deeper reliance on God's wisdom and plan for one's life.

By examining the Hebrew words and their syntactic roles, we gain a richer understanding of this passage’s emphasis on divine guidance and human dependence.

***************************************************************************************************************************************************
1. John 16:13
"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."

Meaning: This verse highlights the role of the Holy Spirit in guiding believers into all truth, providing divine revelation and understanding of future events.

2. Romans 8:14
"For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God."

Meaning: This passage emphasizes that being led by the Spirit is a characteristic of being a child of God, indicating a relationship where the Spirit provides direction and guidance.

3. Galatians 5:18
"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."

Meaning: Here, Paul contrasts life under the law with life led by the Spirit, suggesting that the Spirit's guidance brings freedom and alignment with God's will.

4. Acts 16:6-7
"Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia. When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to."

Meaning: This passage provides a practical example of the Holy Spirit actively directing the missionary efforts of Paul and his companions, showing the Spirit's involvement in decision-making and guidance.

5. Ezekiel 36:27
"And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws."

Meaning: This prophetic promise speaks of the Holy Spirit being placed within believers to move and enable them to follow God's laws and decrees, illustrating the transformative and guiding power of the Spirit.

These scriptures collectively show that the Holy Spirit plays a crucial role in guiding, directing, and leading believers in their spiritual journey and daily lives.

Would you agree?
Click to expand...

In the context of your comments earlier, I believe that you were attempting to use "direct steps" relative to God purpose. I agree. However, the conversation was centered around the assumption that God purposes all the steps of mankind relative to what you believe "Sovereignty" demands. If I'm wrong, I apologize.

Can you confirm that you do not believe that God's Sovereignty includes purposing the steps that lead to the damnation of certain men?
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
I didn't say "created". I said what the text says, which is "meant", which means "determined".
Click to expand...
Determine
1. krino (G2919), primarily "to separate," hence, "to be of opinion, approve, esteem," Rom_14:5, also "to determine, resolve, decree," is used in this sense in Act_3:13; Act_20:16; Act_25:25; Act_27:1; 1Co_2:2; 2Co_2:1; Tit_3:12. See CONDEMN, JUDGE, JUDGMENT, LAW, B, No.
2. horizo (G3724) denotes "to bound, to set a boundary" (Eng., "horizon"); hence, "to mark out definitely, determine"; it is translated "to determine" in Luk_22:22, of the foreordained pathway of Christ; Act_11:29, of a "determination" to send relief; Act_17:26, where it is used of fixing the bounds of seasons. In Act_2:23 the verb is translated "determinate," with reference to counsel. Here the verbal form might have been adhered to by the translation "determined"; that is to say, in the sense of "settled."
In Rom_1:4 it is translated "declared," where the meaning is that Christ was marked out as the Son of God by His resurrection and that of others (see under DECLARE). In Act_10:42 and Act_17:31 it has its other meaning of "ordain," that is, "to appoint by determined counsel." In Heb 4.7, it is translated "limiteth," but preferably in the RV, "defineth," with reference to a certain period; here again it approaches its primary meaning of marking out the bounds of see DECLARE, No. 9, LIMIT ORDAIN.
3. proorizo (G4309), pro, "beforehand," and No. 2, denotes "to mark out beforehand, to determine before, foreordain"; in Act_4:28, KJV, "determined before," RV, "foreordained"; so the RV in 1Co_2:7, KJV, "ordained", in Rom_8:29-30 and Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11, KJV, "predestinate," RV, "foreordain." see ORDAIN, Note (1), PREDESTINATE.
4. epiluo (G1956), lit., "to loosen upon," denotes "to solve, expound," Mar_4:34; "to settle," as of a controversy, Act_19:39, KJV, "it shall be determined," RV, "it shall be settled." see EXPOUND, SETTLE.
5. diaginosko (G1231), besides its meaning "to ascertain exactly," Act_23:15, was an Athenian law term signifying "to determine," so used in Act_24:22, RV, "determine"; KJV, "know the uttermost of."
6. tasso (G5021): see APPOINT, No. 5.
Note: Boulomai, "to be minded, to purpose," is translated "determined" in Act_15:37; RV, was minded. See MINDED, No. 2.
Vine's Expository Dictionary.

I have no problem with the fact that YHVH CAN indeed determine events, nations, etc. and that He is not "Passive" in believers.
 
Johann said:
Determine
1. krino (G2919), primarily "to separate," hence, "to be of opinion, approve, esteem," Rom_14:5, also "to determine, resolve, decree," is used in this sense in Act_3:13; Act_20:16; Act_25:25; Act_27:1; 1Co_2:2; 2Co_2:1; Tit_3:12. See CONDEMN, JUDGE, JUDGMENT, LAW, B, No.
2. horizo (G3724) denotes "to bound, to set a boundary" (Eng., "horizon"); hence, "to mark out definitely, determine"; it is translated "to determine" in Luk_22:22, of the foreordained pathway of Christ; Act_11:29, of a "determination" to send relief; Act_17:26, where it is used of fixing the bounds of seasons. In Act_2:23 the verb is translated "determinate," with reference to counsel. Here the verbal form might have been adhered to by the translation "determined"; that is to say, in the sense of "settled."
In Rom_1:4 it is translated "declared," where the meaning is that Christ was marked out as the Son of God by His resurrection and that of others (see under DECLARE). In Act_10:42 and Act_17:31 it has its other meaning of "ordain," that is, "to appoint by determined counsel." In Heb 4.7, it is translated "limiteth," but preferably in the RV, "defineth," with reference to a certain period; here again it approaches its primary meaning of marking out the bounds of see DECLARE, No. 9, LIMIT ORDAIN.
3. proorizo (G4309), pro, "beforehand," and No. 2, denotes "to mark out beforehand, to determine before, foreordain"; in Act_4:28, KJV, "determined before," RV, "foreordained"; so the RV in 1Co_2:7, KJV, "ordained", in Rom_8:29-30 and Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11, KJV, "predestinate," RV, "foreordain." see ORDAIN, Note (1), PREDESTINATE.
4. epiluo (G1956), lit., "to loosen upon," denotes "to solve, expound," Mar_4:34; "to settle," as of a controversy, Act_19:39, KJV, "it shall be determined," RV, "it shall be settled." see EXPOUND, SETTLE.
5. diaginosko (G1231), besides its meaning "to ascertain exactly," Act_23:15, was an Athenian law term signifying "to determine," so used in Act_24:22, RV, "determine"; KJV, "know the uttermost of."
6. tasso (G5021): see APPOINT, No. 5.
Note: Boulomai, "to be minded, to purpose," is translated "determined" in Act_15:37; RV, was minded. See MINDED, No. 2.
Vine's Expository Dictionary.

I have no problem with the fact that YHVH CAN indeed determine events, nations, etc. and that He is not "Passive" in believers.
Click to expand...
Exactly. "Created" is not a synonym for "meant" or "determined".
 
Johann said:
Determine
1. krino (G2919), primarily "to separate," hence, "to be of opinion, approve, esteem," Rom_14:5, also "to determine, resolve, decree," is used in this sense in Act_3:13; Act_20:16; Act_25:25; Act_27:1; 1Co_2:2; 2Co_2:1; Tit_3:12. See CONDEMN, JUDGE, JUDGMENT, LAW, B, No.
2. horizo (G3724) denotes "to bound, to set a boundary" (Eng., "horizon"); hence, "to mark out definitely, determine"; it is translated "to determine" in Luk_22:22, of the foreordained pathway of Christ; Act_11:29, of a "determination" to send relief; Act_17:26, where it is used of fixing the bounds of seasons. In Act_2:23 the verb is translated "determinate," with reference to counsel. Here the verbal form might have been adhered to by the translation "determined"; that is to say, in the sense of "settled."
In Rom_1:4 it is translated "declared," where the meaning is that Christ was marked out as the Son of God by His resurrection and that of others (see under DECLARE). In Act_10:42 and Act_17:31 it has its other meaning of "ordain," that is, "to appoint by determined counsel." In Heb 4.7, it is translated "limiteth," but preferably in the RV, "defineth," with reference to a certain period; here again it approaches its primary meaning of marking out the bounds of see DECLARE, No. 9, LIMIT ORDAIN.
3. proorizo (G4309), pro, "beforehand," and No. 2, denotes "to mark out beforehand, to determine before, foreordain"; in Act_4:28, KJV, "determined before," RV, "foreordained"; so the RV in 1Co_2:7, KJV, "ordained", in Rom_8:29-30 and Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11, KJV, "predestinate," RV, "foreordain." see ORDAIN, Note (1), PREDESTINATE.
4. epiluo (G1956), lit., "to loosen upon," denotes "to solve, expound," Mar_4:34; "to settle," as of a controversy, Act_19:39, KJV, "it shall be determined," RV, "it shall be settled." see EXPOUND, SETTLE.
5. diaginosko (G1231), besides its meaning "to ascertain exactly," Act_23:15, was an Athenian law term signifying "to determine," so used in Act_24:22, RV, "determine"; KJV, "know the uttermost of."
6. tasso (G5021): see APPOINT, No. 5.
Note: Boulomai, "to be minded, to purpose," is translated "determined" in Act_15:37; RV, was minded. See MINDED, No. 2.
Vine's Expository Dictionary.

I have no problem with the fact that YHVH CAN indeed determine events, nations, etc. and that He is not "Passive" in believers.
Click to expand...

You assuming connections to English words. Do you believe English is inspired by God?
 

Similar threads

Johann
The Shocking Truth About False Salvation |
2 3
Replies
58
Views
616
MTMattie
MTMattie
MTMattie
The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
Replies
13
Views
219
brightfame52
brightfame52
GodsGrace
The Absurdity of Calvinism
Replies
7
Views
199
Pancho Frijoles
Pancho Frijoles
brightfame52
Salvation by Grace through Faith
5 6 7
Replies
124
Views
1K
civic
civic
civic
Ephesians 2:8 salvation is the gift
13 14 15
Replies
281
Views
2K
Red Baker
R
Back
Top Bottom