Taking credit for your salvation

[TomL]

TomL said:
All you offer is bald denial

All it notes is God had a good purpose for the act

Doug is correct

Which means that God, in his omniscience, knew it was going to happen ahead of time and his allowance was purposeful

 

[praise_yeshua]

I thought so. It was Doug's pronouncement

@TibiasDad @TomL @Rockson @civic

This usage of Omniscience is fabricated to combat the teachings of Calvinism. As such, these types of responses are almost never 100 percent accurate.

I reject the idea that God allows bad things to happen to His children to further His good.

Can you explain to me how this response is actually any different than what the Calvinist is ultimately teaching?

 

[Johann]

I thought so. It was Doug's pronouncement

Scripture References
Proverbs 16:9: "The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps."

God determines the path of believers, guiding their steps.
Jeremiah 29:11: "For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope."

God has specific plans for the welfare and future of His people.
Romans 8:28: "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose."

God works all things for the good of those who love Him, determining their outcomes according to His purpose.
Ephesians 1:11: "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will."

God predestines believers' inheritance and works all things according to His will.
Philippians 2:13: "For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

God works within believers to fulfill His purposes.
Psalm 37:23: "The steps of a man are established by the Lord, when he delights in his way."

The Lord establishes the steps of those who delight in Him.
Isaiah 46:10: "Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose.’"

God declares and accomplishes His purpose from beginning to end.
Acts 17:26: "And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place."

God determines the times and places in which people live.
James 4:15: "Instead you ought to say, 'If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.'"

Believers acknowledge that their plans are subject to the Lord's will.
1 Corinthians 2:7: "But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory."

God decreed wisdom and plans for believers' glory before the ages.
Meaning of "Determine" in Greek and Hebrew
Greek: "ὁρίζω" (horizō) and Related Terms
ὁρίζω (horizō): To determine, appoint, designate, or set boundaries.

Acts 17:26: "Having determined (ὁρίσας, horisas) allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place."
Romans 8:29: "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined (προώρισεν, proōrisen) to be conformed to the image of his Son."
προορίζω (proorizō): To predestine, determine beforehand.

Ephesians 1:11: "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined (προορισθέντες, prooristhentes) according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will."
Hebrew: "חָרַץ" (charats) and Related Terms
חָרַץ (charats): To determine, decree, decide, or sharpen.

Job 14:5: "Since his days are determined (חֲרוּצִים, charutsim), and the number of his months is with you, and you have appointed his limits that he cannot pass."
קָבַע (qava): To determine, fix, or set.

Proverbs 22:28: "Do not move the ancient landmark that your fathers have set (קָבְעוּ, qavu)."
יָצַר (yatsar): To form, fashion, or determine.

Isaiah 46:10: "Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose (יָעַצְתִּי, yaatzti).’"
These terms and their contexts show that God actively determines and orchestrates the affairs of believers, shaping their lives according to His divine will and purposes.

I would rather have it God's way and not my own way.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Scripture References
Proverbs 16:9: "The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps."

God determines the path of believers, guiding their steps.
Jeremiah 29:11: "For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope."

God has specific plans for the welfare and future of His people.
Romans 8:28: "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose."

God works all things for the good of those who love Him, determining their outcomes according to His purpose.
Ephesians 1:11: "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will."

God predestines believers' inheritance and works all things according to His will.
Philippians 2:13: "For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

God works within believers to fulfill His purposes.
Psalm 37:23: "The steps of a man are established by the Lord, when he delights in his way."

The Lord establishes the steps of those who delight in Him.
Isaiah 46:10: "Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose.’"

God declares and accomplishes His purpose from beginning to end.
Acts 17:26: "And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place."

God determines the times and places in which people live.
James 4:15: "Instead you ought to say, 'If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.'"

Believers acknowledge that their plans are subject to the Lord's will.
1 Corinthians 2:7: "But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory."

God decreed wisdom and plans for believers' glory before the ages.
Meaning of "Determine" in Greek and Hebrew
Greek: "ὁρίζω" (horizō) and Related Terms
ὁρίζω (horizō): To determine, appoint, designate, or set boundaries.

Acts 17:26: "Having determined (ὁρίσας, horisas) allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place."
Romans 8:29: "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined (προώρισεν, proōrisen) to be conformed to the image of his Son."
προορίζω (proorizō): To predestine, determine beforehand.

Ephesians 1:11: "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined (προορισθέντες, prooristhentes) according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will."
Hebrew: "חָרַץ" (charats) and Related Terms
חָרַץ (charats): To determine, decree, decide, or sharpen.

Job 14:5: "Since his days are determined (חֲרוּצִים, charutsim), and the number of his months is with you, and you have appointed his limits that he cannot pass."
קָבַע (qava): To determine, fix, or set.

Proverbs 22:28: "Do not move the ancient landmark that your fathers have set (קָבְעוּ, qavu)."
יָצַר (yatsar): To form, fashion, or determine.

Isaiah 46:10: "Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose (יָעַצְתִּי, yaatzti).’"
These terms and their contexts show that God actively determines and orchestrates the affairs of believers, shaping their lives according to His divine will and purposes.

I would rather have it God's way and not my own way.

If you will commit to answering me, I will tell exactly where you're wrong on all of this. I grow tired of trying to get you to respond to me.

 

[Johann]

Doug is correct

@Doug left out some crucial aspects-

The statement "Which means that God, in his omniscience, knew it was going to happen ahead of time and his allowance was purposeful" is generally correct within the context of traditional Christian theology. It conveys the idea that God, being omniscient, foreknows everything that will happen and allows events to unfold according to His divine plan and purposes. This aligns with the biblical understanding of God's omniscience and sovereignty.

However, let's refine this with scriptural support and clarity. I.e.-not what @TibiasDad is saying-but what stands written-Perfect Tense.

Scriptural Support for God's Omniscience and Purposeful Allowance​

1. Omniscience (God's All-Knowing Nature)
   • Psalm 139:1-4: "O Lord, you have searched me and known me! You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar. You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether."
     • This passage highlights God's complete knowledge of all things, including human thoughts and actions.
2. Foreknowledge and Predestination
   • Romans 8:29-30: "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
     • Here, God's foreknowledge is linked to His predestined plan for believers, indicating purposeful allowance.
3. God's Sovereign Plan
   • Isaiah 46:9-10: "Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’"
     • God declares events from the beginning and ensures His purpose is fulfilled, demonstrating His sovereign control over history.
4. Purposeful Allowance
   • Acts 2:23: "This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men."
     • The crucifixion of Jesus is shown as part of God's predetermined plan, yet carried out by human actions, indicating that God allowed it purposefully for redemption.

Clarifying the Statement​

To refine the statement with a scriptural foundation, we might say:

"God, in His omniscience, knew all events ahead of time and allowed them to happen according to His purposeful and sovereign plan."

--what was left out-tell me, can a believer live his life and his will independently and apart from God?

This reflects the biblical understanding that God’s foreknowledge and allowance of events are not arbitrary but are aligned with His divine purposes and plans. It acknowledges God's complete knowledge of all things and His sovereign control over the unfolding of history, ensuring that everything happens according to His will and ultimate purpose.

 

[civic]

@TibiasDad @TomL @Rockson @civic

This usage of Omniscience is fabricated to combat the teachings of Calvinism. As such, these types of responses are almost never 100 percent accurate.

I reject the idea that God allows bad things to happen to His children to further His good.

Can you explain to me how this response is actually any different than what the Calvinist is ultimately teaching?

What if it was said like this ?

Which means that God, in his omniscience, knew it was going to happen ahead of time and his allowance was purposeful used it for His purpose.

In other words God was passive/ neutral in the circumstance but used it for His purposes.

 

[TomL]

Nope. That's not what "meant" means.

See post # 84 which not a one of you touched.

utterly absurd


you posted

Definition (Webster's)

Mean
a : to have in the mind as a purpose : INTEND
she means to win

b : to design for or destine to a specified purpose or future
I was meant to teach

Mean synonym: Determine

Multiple posters who spoke on this topic posted regarding the word intend

For example Doug posted

Which means that God, in his omniscience, knew it was going to happen ahead of time and his allowance was purposeful
speaking of God's intent or purpose
I posted

All it notes is God had a good purpose for the act

Doug is correct

Which means that God, in his omniscience, knew it was going to happen ahead of time and his allowance was purposeful

Nowhere do we read God determined the brother's desire to harm Joseph, which is necessary for a compatibilist understanding

 

[praise_yeshua]

What if it was said like this ?

Which means that God, in his omniscience, knew it was going to happen ahead of time and his allowance was purposeful used it for His purpose.

In other words God was passive/ neutral in the circumstance but used it for His purposes.

Much better! God could well have acted different at many places along the "timeline" to lead Joseph into Egypt.

 

[Johann]

@TibiasDad @TomL @Rockson @civic

This usage of Omniscience is fabricated to combat the teachings of Calvinism. As such, these types of responses are almost never 100 percent accurate.

I reject the idea that God allows bad things to happen to His children to further His good.

Can you explain to me how this response is actually any different than what the Calvinist is ultimately teaching?

That was my thought as well.

 

[civic]

Much better! God could well have acted different at many places along the "timeline" to lead Joseph into Egypt.

Thats where Sovereignty in reformed theology goes astray. God doesn't actively direct everything that comes to pass as they teach.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Thats where Sovereignty in reformed theology goes astray. God doesn't actively direct everything that comes to pass as they teach.

Watch out for getting labeled a "Deist".

It is a complicated construct.

God intervenes either angelically or in judgement along the "timeline" as necessary to bring about His longsuffering purpose within Humanity.

I've wanted to have a "long suffering" argument with a Calvinist for a long time. It is rare they will even answer you. The concepts of "long suffering" in the Scriptures present that God isn't ready to judge men immediately.

The children of Jacob were on "equal ground" relative to God's long suffering in this. Even though Joseph was certainly more relational to God than the others. This is also a "picture" of why Christ suffered among humanity the way He did. He was subjected to many of the "whims" of humanity in His Incarnation.

Add the concepts of prayer and mercy and you have a complicated construct of the timeline that operates freely within the natural construct of this planet.

I was thinking about how the wind carries seeds this morning. The wind blows. The seed gets carried by the wind. If you don't want certain seed where it doesn't belong, then you better cover your seed. If you're going to sow seed in the proper place, you better not sow it where it doesn't belong.

 

[civic]

Watch out for getting labeled a "Deist".

It is a complicated construct.

God intervenes either angelically or in judgement along the "timeline" as necessary to bring about His longsuffering purpose within Humanity.

I've wanted to have a "long suffering" argument with a Calvinist for a long time. It is rare they will even answer you. The concepts of "long suffering" in the Scriptures present that God isn't ready to judge men immediately.

The children of Jacob were on "equal ground" relative to God's long suffering in this. Even though Joseph was certainly more relational to God than the others. This is also a "picture" of why Christ suffered among humanity the way He did. He was subjected to many of the "whims" of humanity in His Incarnation.

Add the concepts of prayer and mercy and you have a complicated construct of the timeline that operates freely within the natural construct of this planet.

I was thinking about how the wind carries seeds this morning. The wind blows. The seed gets carried by the wind. If you don't want certain seed where it doesn't belong, then you better cover your seed. If you're going to sow seed in the proper place, you better not sow it where it doesn't belong.

labels for them are just nothing more than an excuse to avoid a dialogue with the text and use the fallacy of guilt by association. White has made a daily habit of doing that with his opponents- the boogie man tactics at work- Slick is another one who does the same thing all of the time.

 

[Johann]

Which means that God, in his omniscience, knew it was going to happen ahead of time and his allowance was purposeful used it for His purpose.

In other words God was passive/ neutral in the circumstance but used it for His purposes.

Your statement implies that God's omniscience means He merely allows events to unfold without actively participating or directing them, but then uses those events for His purposes. However, your interpretation might overlook the depth of God's involvement in human affairs as portrayed in the Bible.

Biblically, God's sovereignty is not merely passive or neutral; rather, it's active and purposeful. While God certainly knows all things, including future events, His sovereignty encompasses more than mere foreknowledge. Here's how your statement could be corrected to better align with biblical understanding:

"God, in His omniscience, knew in advance what would happen, and His allowance of events serves His sovereign purpose."

This adjustment acknowledges God's foreknowledge while emphasizing His active role in orchestrating events according to His purposes. Throughout the Bible, we see examples of God actively working in human history to bring about His plans and fulfill His promises. He doesn't just passively watch events unfold but actively intervenes and guides human affairs according to His will.

For instance, in the story of Joseph in the book of Genesis, God used the jealousy of Joseph's brothers and his subsequent enslavement in Egypt to ultimately save many lives during a severe famine. While God knew in advance what would happen, He actively worked through those events to accomplish His greater purposes.

Therefore, it's essential to emphasize God's active involvement in the circumstances of life, rather than portraying Him as merely permitting events to happen and then reacting to them. This perspective reflects the biblical understanding of God's sovereignty and His intimate engagement with His creation.

 

[TomL]

Your statement implies that God's omniscience means He merely allows events to unfold without actively participating or directing them, but then uses those events for His purposes. However, your interpretation might overlook the depth of God's involvement in human affairs as portrayed in the Bible.

Biblically, God's sovereignty is not merely passive or neutral; rather, it's active and purposeful. While God certainly knows all things, including future events, His sovereignty encompasses more than mere foreknowledge. Here's how your statement could be corrected to better align with biblical understanding:

"God, in His omniscience, knew in advance what would happen, and His allowance of events serves His sovereign purpose."

This adjustment acknowledges God's foreknowledge while emphasizing His active role in orchestrating events according to His purposes. Throughout the Bible, we see examples of God actively working in human history to bring about His plans and fulfill His promises. He doesn't just passively watch events unfold but actively intervenes and guides human affairs according to His will.

For instance, in the story of Joseph in the book of Genesis, God used the jealousy of Joseph's brothers and his subsequent enslavement in Egypt to ultimately save many lives during a severe famine. While God knew in advance what would happen, He actively worked through those events to accomplish His greater purposes.

Therefore, it's essential to emphasize God's active involvement in the circumstances of life, rather than portraying Him as merely permitting events to happen and then reacting to them. This perspective reflects the biblical understanding of God's sovereignty and His intimate engagement with His creation.

So you do not believe God determined the brothers' jealousy?

 

[Johann]

So you do not believe God determined the brothers' jealousy?

Work this out for yourself-you have a bible. And please allow the Holy Spirit to illuminate the scriptures-you are running hither and thither like a boat tossed to and fro on the open sea.

 

[civic]

Your statement implies that God's omniscience means He merely allows events to unfold without actively participating or directing them, but then uses those events for His purposes. However, your interpretation might overlook the depth of God's involvement in human affairs as portrayed in the Bible.

Biblically, God's sovereignty is not merely passive or neutral; rather, it's active and purposeful. While God certainly knows all things, including future events, His sovereignty encompasses more than mere foreknowledge. Here's how your statement could be corrected to better align with biblical understanding:

"God, in His omniscience, knew in advance what would happen, and His allowance of events serves His sovereign purpose."

This adjustment acknowledges God's foreknowledge while emphasizing His active role in orchestrating events according to His purposes. Throughout the Bible, we see examples of God actively working in human history to bring about His plans and fulfill His promises. He doesn't just passively watch events unfold but actively intervenes and guides human affairs according to His will.

For instance, in the story of Joseph in the book of Genesis, God used the jealousy of Joseph's brothers and his subsequent enslavement in Egypt to ultimately save many lives during a severe famine. While God knew in advance what would happen, He actively worked through those events to accomplish His greater purposes.

Therefore, it's essential to emphasize God's active involvement in the circumstances of life, rather than portraying Him as merely permitting events to happen and then reacting to them. This perspective reflects the biblical understanding of God's sovereignty and His intimate engagement with His creation.

Sometimes He does and most often He does not .

Just ask all the Jews and their families that hitler slaughtered or all the aborted babies. I can name 100’s of others too.

Next

 

[praise_yeshua]

Work this out for yourself-you have a bible. And please allow the Holy Spirit to illuminate the scriptures-you are running hither and thither like a boat tossed to and fro on the open sea.

Commit to something here. It is a valid question.

 

[Johann]

Sometimes He does and most often He does not .

Just ask all the Jews and their families that hitler slaughtered or all the aborted babies. I can name 100’s of others too.

Next

Next

 

[praise_yeshua]

Sometimes He does and most often He does not .

Just ask all the Jews and their families that hitler slaughtered or all the aborted babies. I can name 100’s of others too.

Next

The only conclusion they are willing to consider are the one's that make them look good......

 

[civic]

The only conclusion they are willing to consider are the one's that make them look good......

It’s so sad they blame God for the murdering of the innocent and attributing it to His prescriptive will. It’s blasphemy