Taking credit for your salvation

My point was that theology by analogy is flawed. I could come up with an analogy for just about any doctrine, but that doesn't make it true.
 
Johann said:
  1. Joseph's Dreams: Joseph has dreams that indicate his future authority over his brothers, which stirs jealousy and resentment among them (Genesis 37:5-11).
  2. Brothers' Plot: Joseph's brothers conspire to kill him but ultimately decide to sell him into slavery instead (Genesis 37:18-28).
  3. Joseph's Journey: Joseph is taken to Egypt, where he eventually rises to prominence in Potiphar's house and later in Pharaoh's court (Genesis 39-41).
  4. Reconciliation: Years later, Joseph encounters his brothers again during a famine, and they come to Egypt seeking food. Through a series of events, Joseph reveals himself to them and reconciles with them (Genesis 42-45).
  5. God's Providence: Throughout the story, God's providential care and guidance are evident. Despite the brothers' intentions to harm Joseph, God works through the circumstances to accomplish His purposes. Joseph himself recognizes this divine providence when he tells his brothers, "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives" (Genesis 50:20, NIV).
While the brothers' actions are motivated by jealousy and resentment, and they bear responsibility for their choices, God ultimately uses these events to fulfill His larger plan. The story of Joseph demonstrates how God can work through human actions, even those motivated by sin, to bring about His purposes.

So--in summary, while the text does not explicitly state that God determined the brothers to harm Joseph, it does depict God's providential involvement in the events, ultimately using them for His redemptive purposes.

You really seem to have a problem with God's sovereignty-God doesn't need us, we need God and our Lord Jesus Christ.
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You really have a problem understanding God's sovereignty does not mean he has to determine everything including all of man's desires

You have posted zero evidence God determined the brother's desire to harm Joseph.
 
Presby02 said:
Nope. That's not what "meant" means
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All you offer is bald denial

All it notes is God had a good purpose for the act

Doug is correct

Which means that God, in his omniscience, knew it was going to happen ahead of time and his allowance was purposeful
 
TibiasDad said:
I honestly don’t know how you could possibly think this communicates anything intelligently or logically. There is no stated premise, and yet you say this is the reason why you concluded that free will is unsustainable. As stated, your argument is meaningless and obscure in its purpose.
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Yeah that's what I said too when I stated I didn't even have a clue what they're trying to say.
 
TomL said:
All you offer is bald denial

All it notes is God had a good purpose for the act

Doug is correct

Which means that God, in his omniscience, knew it was going to happen ahead of time and his allowance was purposeful
Click to expand...
 
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The Rogue Tomato said:
"You meant it for evil but God meant it for good" is an example of that. Surely Joseph's brothers sold Joseph into slavery as a result of temptation, no? Yet God meant for it to happen.
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You keep repeating this false narrative even though you have repeatedly been proven wrong. You present a god that is powerless to instantly overcome evil. God could have placed Joseph on the throne Himself. Why are you claiming God is too weak to do it Himself that He had to use others to punish Joseph?
 
TomL said:
You really have a problem understanding God's sovereignty does not mean he has to determine everything including all of man's desires

You have posted zero evidence God determined the brother's desire to harm Joseph.
Click to expand...
Here are ten scriptures that demonstrate God's sovereign control and determinative action in various aspects of human affairs, countering the idea that His sovereignty excludes determination of man's desires and actions:

  1. Proverbs 16:9
    • "The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps."
    • This shows that while man may make plans, it is ultimately God who directs his steps.
  2. Jeremiah 10:23
    • "I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps."
    • This verse highlights that man's path is determined by God.
  3. Psalm 33:10-11
    • "The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; he frustrates the plans of the peoples. The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations."
    • God's sovereign plans override human intentions and desires.
  4. Isaiah 46:9-10
    • "Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’"
    • God's sovereignty includes the declaration and fulfillment of all His purposes.
  5. Proverbs 21:1
    • "The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will."
    • Even the desires and decisions of rulers are directed by God.
  6. Daniel 4:35
    • "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, ‘What have you done?’"
    • God acts according to His will, and no one can question or thwart His actions.
  7. Acts 17:26
    • "And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,"
    • God determines the times and places in which people live.
  8. Ephesians 1:11
    • "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,"
    • God works all things according to His will, indicating a comprehensive sovereignty.
  9. Romans 9:18
    • "So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."
    • God's sovereignty extends to showing mercy and hardening hearts according to His will.
  10. Jeremiah 18:6
    • "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the Lord. Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel."
    • This metaphor indicates God's control over the destinies and actions of people.
These scriptures collectively demonstrate that God's sovereignty encompasses control over human affairs, desires, and decisions, affirming the view that God indeed determines everything, including the desires and actions of man.
 
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Rockson said:
That's a surprising question. If you go to Tibia's post #100 it tells you who he was talking to and that gives you the answer.
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Right-that was between @TibiasDad and @The Rogue Tomato and then you answered back to Dough with "they?" Correct?
Nothing surprising from my end--or did you answer back to @Rockson? [you]
But no worries since that is what happens when we don't use the person's username.
 
Johann said:
Here are ten scriptures that demonstrate God's sovereign control and determinative action in various aspects of human affairs, countering the idea that His sovereignty excludes determination of man's desires and actions:

  1. Proverbs 16:9
    • "The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps."
    • This shows that while man may make plans, it is ultimately God who directs his steps.
  2. Jeremiah 10:23
    • "I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps."
    • This verse highlights that man's path is determined by God.
  3. Psalm 33:10-11
    • "The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; he frustrates the plans of the peoples. The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations."
    • God's sovereign plans override human intentions and desires.
  4. Isaiah 46:9-10
    • "Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’"
    • God's sovereignty includes the declaration and fulfillment of all His purposes.
  5. Proverbs 21:1
    • "The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will."
    • Even the desires and decisions of rulers are directed by God.
  6. Daniel 4:35
    • "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, ‘What have you done?’"
    • God acts according to His will, and no one can question or thwart His actions.
  7. Acts 17:26
    • "And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,"
    • God determines the times and places in which people live.
  8. Ephesians 1:11
    • "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,"
    • God works all things according to His will, indicating a comprehensive sovereignty.
  9. Romans 9:18
    • "So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."
    • God's sovereignty extends to showing mercy and hardening hearts according to His will.
  10. Jeremiah 18:6
    • "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the Lord. Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel."
    • This metaphor indicates God's control over the destinies and actions of people.
These scriptures collectively demonstrate that God's sovereignty encompasses control over human affairs, desires, and decisions, affirming the view that God indeed determines everything, including the desires and actions of man.
Click to expand...
Not one verse speaks to Joseph's brothers desire to kill Christ

Not one verse justifies Calvinist claims God determines all thing and these refute that idea

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world.

Jer. 32:35 They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Is. 30:1 “Ah, stubborn children,” declares the LORD,
“who carry out a plan, but not mine,
and who make an alliance, but not of my Spirit,
that they may add sin to sin;

Gal. 5:7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you.

1Cor. 14:33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.

1Cor. 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Rom. 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
 

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