Shema Israel and identifying Jesus as Jehovah/Yahweh

[TomL]

He is the firstborn of all creation. False religions twist it to mean something else because truth exposes their falseness.

LOL you never address rebuttal which shows firstborn does not mean first created. That firstborn of creation would mean He was born of the creation and that can denote a position of favoritism or pre-eminence

Firstborn prototokos gr sometimes used to denote preeminence or headship or even favoritism. it is sometimes transferred


Exodus 4:22 (LEB) — 22 And you must say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says Yahweh, “Israel is my son, my firstborn.”

Isael was neither the first nation created nor the offspring of God

Psalm 89:27 (LEB) — 27 I will also make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.

Here it refers to a position of pre-eminence

1 Chronicles 5:1–3 (LEB) — 1 The sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel (for he was the firstborn, but when he defiled the couch of his father, his birthright was given to the sons of Joseph, the son of Israel, so that he was not enrolled in the genealogy as the firstborn, 2 though Judah became strong among his brothers and a chief came from him, but the birthright belonged to Joseph). 3 The sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel: Enoch, Pallu, Hezron, and Carmi.

Here it is a position which can be revoked

Genesis 41:50–52 (LEB) — 50 Before the year of famine came, two sons were born to Joseph, whom Asenath, daughter of Potiphera priest of On, bore to him. 51 And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh, for he said, “God has caused me to forget all my hardship and all my father’s house.” 52 And the name of the second he called Ephraim, for he said, “God has made me fruitful in the land of my misfortune.”

Jeremiah 31:9 (LEB) — 9 With weeping they will come, and with pleas for mercy I will bring them; I will let them walk by streams of water in a straight path. They will not stumble in it, for I have become to Israel a father, and Ephraim, he is my firstborn.”

And here it was transferred from Manasseh to Ephraim

 

[Keiw1]

LOL you never address rebuttal which shows firstborn does not mean first created. That firstborn of creation would mean He was born of the creation and that can denote a position of favoritism or pre-eminence

Firstborn prototokos gr sometimes used to denote preeminence or headship or even favoritism. it is sometimes transferred


Exodus 4:22 (LEB) — 22 And you must say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says Yahweh, “Israel is my son, my firstborn.”

Isael was neither the first nation created nor the offspring of God

Psalm 89:27 (LEB) — 27 I will also make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.

Here it refers to a position of pre-eminence

1 Chronicles 5:1–3 (LEB) — 1 The sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel (for he was the firstborn, but when he defiled the couch of his father, his birthright was given to the sons of Joseph, the son of Israel, so that he was not enrolled in the genealogy as the firstborn, 2 though Judah became strong among his brothers and a chief came from him, but the birthright belonged to Joseph). 3 The sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel: Enoch, Pallu, Hezron, and Carmi.

Here it is a position which can be revoked

Genesis 41:50–52 (LEB) — 50 Before the year of famine came, two sons were born to Joseph, whom Asenath, daughter of Potiphera priest of On, bore to him. 51 And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh, for he said, “God has caused me to forget all my hardship and all my father’s house.” 52 And the name of the second he called Ephraim, for he said, “God has made me fruitful in the land of my misfortune.”

Jeremiah 31:9 (LEB) — 9 With weeping they will come, and with pleas for mercy I will bring them; I will let them walk by streams of water in a straight path. They will not stumble in it, for I have become to Israel a father, and Ephraim, he is my firstborn.”

And here it was transferred from Manasseh to Ephraim

All creation occurred at the beginning-Jesus is the firstborn of that creation= created direct, first and last=all other things created THROUGH-him.

 

[TomL]

All creation occurred at the beginning-Jesus is the firstborn of that creation= created direct, first and last=all other things created THROUGH-him.

Why did you just ignore these

Firstborn prototokos gr sometimes used to denote preeminence or headship or even favoritism. it is sometimes transferred


Exodus 4:22 (LEB) — 22 And you must say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says Yahweh, “Israel is my son, my firstborn.”

Isael was neither the first nation created nor the offspring of God

Psalm 89:27 (LEB) — 27 I will also make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.

Here it refers to a position of pre-eminence

1 Chronicles 5:1–3 (LEB) — 1 The sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel (for he was the firstborn, but when he defiled the couch of his father, his birthright was given to the sons of Joseph, the son of Israel, so that he was not enrolled in the genealogy as the firstborn, 2 though Judah became strong among his brothers and a chief came from him, but the birthright belonged to Joseph). 3 The sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel: Enoch, Pallu, Hezron, and Carmi.

Here it is a position which can be revoked

Genesis 41:50–52 (LEB) — 50 Before the year of famine came, two sons were born to Joseph, whom Asenath, daughter of Potiphera priest of On, bore to him. 51 And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh, for he said, “God has caused me to forget all my hardship and all my father’s house.” 52 And the name of the second he called Ephraim, for he said, “God has made me fruitful in the land of my misfortune.”

Jeremiah 31:9 (LEB) — 9 With weeping they will come, and with pleas for mercy I will bring them; I will let them walk by streams of water in a straight path. They will not stumble in it, for I have become to Israel a father, and Ephraim, he is my firstborn.”

And here it was transferred from Manasseh to Ephraim

 

[Keiw1]

Why did you just ignore these

Firstborn prototokos gr sometimes used to denote preeminence or headship or even favoritism. it is sometimes transferred


Exodus 4:22 (LEB) — 22 And you must say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says Yahweh, “Israel is my son, my firstborn.”

Isael was neither the first nation created nor the offspring of God

Psalm 89:27 (LEB) — 27 I will also make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.

Here it refers to a position of pre-eminence

1 Chronicles 5:1–3 (LEB) — 1 The sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel (for he was the firstborn, but when he defiled the couch of his father, his birthright was given to the sons of Joseph, the son of Israel, so that he was not enrolled in the genealogy as the firstborn, 2 though Judah became strong among his brothers and a chief came from him, but the birthright belonged to Joseph). 3 The sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel: Enoch, Pallu, Hezron, and Carmi.

Here it is a position which can be revoked

Genesis 41:50–52 (LEB) — 50 Before the year of famine came, two sons were born to Joseph, whom Asenath, daughter of Potiphera priest of On, bore to him. 51 And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh, for he said, “God has caused me to forget all my hardship and all my father’s house.” 52 And the name of the second he called Ephraim, for he said, “God has made me fruitful in the land of my misfortune.”

Jeremiah 31:9 (LEB) — 9 With weeping they will come, and with pleas for mercy I will bring them; I will let them walk by streams of water in a straight path. They will not stumble in it, for I have become to Israel a father, and Ephraim, he is my firstborn.”

And here it was transferred from Manasseh to Ephraim

The term all creation is showing when that occurred. Your religion has to twist firstborn to mean something other than truth. Truth exposes their falseness.

 

[TomL]

The term all creation is showing when that occurred. Your religion has to twist firstborn to mean something other than truth. Truth exposes their falseness.

You failed to address the point. If all creation is through Christ/the word, he is not a part of creation

Firstborn prototokos gr sometimes used to denote preeminence or headship or even favoritism. it is sometimes transferred


Exodus 4:22 (LEB) — 22 And you must say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says Yahweh, “Israel is my son, my firstborn.”

Israel was neither the first nation created nor the offspring of God

Psalm 89:27 (LEB) — 27 I will also make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.

Here it refers to a position of pre-eminence

1 Chronicles 5:1–3 (LEB) — 1 The sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel (for he was the firstborn, but when he defiled the couch of his father, his birthright was given to the sons of Joseph, the son of Israel, so that he was not enrolled in the genealogy as the firstborn, 2 though Judah became strong among his brothers and a chief came from him, but the birthright belonged to Joseph). 3 The sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel: Enoch, Pallu, Hezron, and Carmi.

Here it is a position which can be revoked

Genesis 41:50–52 (LEB) — 50 Before the year of famine came, two sons were born to Joseph, whom Asenath, daughter of Potiphera priest of On, bore to him. 51 And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh, for he said, “God has caused me to forget all my hardship and all my father’s house.” 52 And the name of the second he called Ephraim, for he said, “God has made me fruitful in the land of my misfortune.”

Jeremiah 31:9 (LEB) — 9 With weeping they will come, and with pleas for mercy I will bring them; I will let them walk by streams of water in a straight path. They will not stumble in it, for I have become to Israel a father, and Ephraim, he is my firstborn.”

And here it was transferred from Manasseh to Ephraim

 

[Keiw1]

You failed to address the point. If all creation is through Christ/the word, he is not a part of creation

Prov 8:22-Produced me as the beginning of your way( firstborn of all creation)=Gods master worker= Jesus. Your error filled translation has possessed me= makes no sense.

 

[TomL]

Prov 8:22-Produced me as the beginning of your way( firstborn of all creation)=Gods master worker= Jesus. Your error filled translation has possessed me= makes no sense.

So you are going to claim God once had no wisdom

Hello

You fudged on this previously, are you going to do so again?

 

[Keiw1]

So you are going to claim God once had no wisdom

Hello

You fudged on this previously, are you going to do so again?

Prov 8 switches to speaking about Gods master worker.

 

[TomL]

Prov 8 switches to speaking about Gods master worker.

Wisdom

Are you going to claim God was without wisdom?

Stop letting the Watchtower organization do your thinking for you

 

[Keiw1]

Wisdom

Are you going to claim God was without wisdom?

Stop letting the Watchtower organization do your thinking for you

God always had wisdom, it was never created. Gods master worker was created, And Jesus became wisdom- 1Cor 1:30

 

[TomL]

God always had wisdom, it was never created. Gods master worker was created, And Jesus became wisdom- 1Cor 1:30

Sorry you provide no evidence of that

You have admitted wisdom always exists and you have equated Christ and wisdom therefore Christ always existed

 

[Keiw1]

Sorry you provide no evidence of that

You have admitted wisdom always exists and you have equated Christ and wisdom therefore Christ always existed

you are so good at twisting.

 

[TomL]

you are so good at twisting.

Rather, you are so poor at handling the evidence, and are not able to rebut that which is contrary to your view

You have admitted wisdom always exists, and you have equated Christ and wisdom therefore Christ always existed

 

[Keiw1]

Rather, you are so poor at handling the evidence, and are not able to rebut that which is contrary to your view

You have admitted wisdom always exists, and you have equated Christ and wisdom therefore Christ always existed

No it said Christ became wisdom=wisdom was there first.

 

[101G]

No it said Christ became wisdom=wisdom was there first.

Jesus is the Wisdom of God, meaning God own Word. scripture, 1 Corinthians 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." Now, let's see that WISDOM, before, before, before creation.

Genesis 1:3 "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." LIGHT here is Wisdom.
H216 אוֹר 'owr (ore) n-f.
1. illumination.
2. (concretely) luminary (in every sense, including lightning, happiness, etc.).
[from H215]
KJV: bright, clear, + day, light (-ning), morning, sun.
Root(s): H215

Here Light is illumination or WISDOM. and not luminous, as in Physical Light on day 4.

and in the definition above, in concrete form... happiness

another word for "happiness" is rejoice and delight
Proverbs 8:22 "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old." Proverbs 8:23 "I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was." Proverbs 8:24 "When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water." Proverbs 8:25 "Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:" Proverbs 8:26 "While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world." Proverbs 8:27 "When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:" Proverbs 8:28 "When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:" Proverbs 8:29 "When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:" Proverbs 8:30 "Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;" Proverbs 8:31 "Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men."

101G.

 

[TomL]

No it said Christ became wisdom=wisdom was there first.

You are reading out of context

It does not say Christ became wisdom before creation for the purpose of creation.

Further, you cannot point to wisdom being created in an effort to posit Christ was created

As you affirmed wisdom always existed

Your argument is a total failure.

 

[Keiw1]

Jesus is the Wisdom of God, meaning God own Word. scripture, 1 Corinthians 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." Now, let's see that WISDOM, before, before, before creation.

Genesis 1:3 "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." LIGHT here is Wisdom.
H216 אוֹר 'owr (ore) n-f.
1. illumination.
2. (concretely) luminary (in every sense, including lightning, happiness, etc.).
[from H215]
KJV: bright, clear, + day, light (-ning), morning, sun.
Root(s): H215

Here Light is illumination or WISDOM. and not luminous, as in Physical Light on day 4.

and in the definition above, in concrete form... happiness

another word for "happiness" is rejoice and delight
Proverbs 8:22 "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old." Proverbs 8:23 "I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was." Proverbs 8:24 "When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water." Proverbs 8:25 "Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:" Proverbs 8:26 "While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world." Proverbs 8:27 "When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:" Proverbs 8:28 "When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:" Proverbs 8:29 "When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:" Proverbs 8:30 "Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;" Proverbs 8:31 "Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men."

101G.

Well since you know Jesus is wisdom then you must know he is Gods master worker--And us at Gen 1:26= YHVH(Jehovah) and his master worker. Because verse 27 is clear-HE created = 1 single being has the power and knowledge to do so. He did it THROUGH his master worker. And Jesus tells all at Prov 8:27-28= HE created, not we created. These are bible facts.

 

[Keiw1]

You are reading out of context

It does not say Christ became wisdom before creation for the purpose of creation.

Further, you cannot point to wisdom being created in an effort to posit Christ was created

As you affirmed wisdom always existed

Your argument is a total failure.

God always had Wisdom. Jesus became Wisdom by doing his Fathers will 100% of the time.

 

[TomL]

God always had Wisdom. Jesus became Wisdom by doing his Fathers will 100% of the time.

Then it does not point to him being created, And your argument is a failure

 

[101G]

Well since you know Jesus is wisdom then you must know he is Gods master worker

ERROR, JESUS is GOD who is the Master-Worker. Wisdom is the PERSON GOD who is Jesus. your wisdom is not separate from you. my God what's wrong with people. if 101G say your wisdom is terrible, is your wisdom is a separate person or thing from YOU? don't be silly. your wisdom is you. just as God wisdom is HIM. come on people THINK.

And us at Gen 1:26= YHVH(Jehovah) and his master worker.

ANOTHER ERROR on your PART. there is no one but one Person at Genesis 1:26 and 27... can you understand that? listen to the Lord Jesus who cannot LIE, Listen. Matthew 19:4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female," How many is "he?" only ONE PERSON. God is one person. in Genesis 1:26 he is foretelling us that he, he, he, is coming in his, his, his, OWN, OWN, OWN, IMAGE. my God how hard is it to understand. the US and the OUR in Genesis 1:26 is the IMAGE of God that was to come. supportive scripture, Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" K do you understand that?

Because verse 27 is clear-HE created = 1 single being has the power and knowledge to do so. He did it THROUGH his master worker. And Jesus tells all at Prov 8:27-28= HE created, not we created. These are bible facts.

are you that IGNORANT? scripture, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" he was ALONE, and BY HIMSELF which answer your ERRIOUS assessment above. listen and learn. the term ALONE means, "having no one else present". and the term "BY HIMSELF" means, using the Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English, "BY",
BY, prep.
1. Near; close; as, sit by me; that house stands by a river.
[L. pressus.]
2. Near, in motion; as, to move, go or pass by a church. But it seems, in other phrases,or with a verb in the past time, to signify past, gone beyond. "The procession is gone by;" "the hour is gone by;" "John went by." We now use past as an equivalent word. The procession is gone past. Gone by is in strictness tautology, as now used; but I apprehend by signifies primarily near.
3. Through, or with, denoting the agent, means, instrument or cause; as, "a city is destroyed by fire;" "profit is made by commerce;" "to take by force." This use answers to that of the Latin per, through, denoting a passing, acting, agency, or instrumentality.

THROUGH? yes THROUGH or "BY" HIMSELF, just as Isaiah said, "that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;". my God this is too easy. he was ALONE and acted "BY" HIMSELF..... Oh boy, when will they ever LEARN.

look K, just read ..... and here read the dictionary by Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English. then you would have understood the term through. the agent or master worker was he HIMSELF.... for he WAS "alone" .... and by, by, by, Himself. which means there was no one to go through... hello. and also by being alone, that eliminates any two or three person Godhead.

is this clear? .... if you have any questions, just ask. 101G is here to help you, ok.

101G.