Sealed by the baptism en the Holy Ghost

[Doug Brents]

You are right. This is very easy.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/all-believers-are-baptized-into-the-body-of-christ.507/#post-11033

Your initial premise, that the baptism mentioned in Rom 6:3 is baptism in the Spirit, is completely false. And with a false foundation, nothing that you build on it has any value. We went through all of this almost two years ago, but you are still stuck with false foundations.

 

[Johann]

Your initial premise, that the baptism mentioned in Rom 3 is baptism in the Spirit, is completely false. And with a false foundation, nothing that you build on it has any value. We went through all of this almost two years ago, but you are still stuck with false foundations.

You mean
Romans 6:3–4
“Or are you ignorant that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death...”
(Greek: ἐβαπτίσθημεν – aorist passive indicative)--not Romans 3-right @Doug Brents?

J.

 

[Doug Brents]

You mean
Romans 6:3–4
“Or are you ignorant that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death...”
(Greek: ἐβαπτίσθημεν – aorist passive indicative)--not Romans 3-right @Doug Brents?

J.

Thank you for the correction, yes.

 

[Fred]

Your initial premise, that the baptism mentioned in Rom 6:3 is baptism in the Spirit, is completely false.

Zero proof against it.

 

[Doug Brents]

Zero proof against it.

The proof is included in post #79.

There is only one baptism in the NT Church (Eph 4:5), and that baptism is the baptism in which we are saved (Mark 16:16, 1 Pet 3:21), and it requires human action and water (Matt 28:19, 1 Pet 3:21, Acts 2:38).

 

[Fred]

The proof is included in post #79.

You started with John 3:5 and then for support you went to Galatians 3:27.

Then you couldn't refute at all that this refers to the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Thanks for making this easy for me.

 

[Doug Brents]

You started with John 3:5 and then for support you went to Galatians 3:27.

Then you couldn't refute at all that this refers to the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Thanks for making this easy for me.

Just because you don't accept the truth doesn't mean that I didn't refute your false assertion.

 

[Fred]

Just because you don't accept the truth doesn't mean that I didn't refute your false assertion.

You haven't refuted anything I wrote concerning Galatians 3:27.

 

[Doug Brents]

You haven't refuted anything I wrote concerning Galatians 3:27.

There is ONLY ONE BAPTISM in the NT Church.
In the absence of any modifier ("baptism in cloud and fire", etc.) that one baptism must be the one that is described and defined by the actions and words of other Scriptures.
1 Pet 3:21 - the baptism that saves requires water.
Acts 8:36 - the baptism taught by the teachers of the Gospel in the first years of the Church required water.
Mark 16:16, Matt 28:19 - the baptism in which we are saved requires the action of the teacher to perform.
Acts 2:38 - the baptism in which our sins are forgiven requires the action of the penitent person to receive.

The fact that the first part of Gal 3 references the Spirit frequently has nothing to do with the necessity, or not, of water baptism. The Holy Spirit is also completely necessary in salvation: John 3:5 says BOTH water AND the Spirit are essential.

Because the baptism in which we are saved requires both the Spirit AND water, Cornelius could not have been saved before he was baptized in water, and demonstrates that what he received of the Spirit was not indwelling (which is received upon salvation, and is the assurance of salvation), but as the Scripture says was only the empowerment of tongues and praise.

 

[TomL]

That verse says that the gift of tongues is one of the gifts of the Spirit. But it does not say that one has to be in the Church to have that gift.

In other terms, this verse says that things that are in water are wet, and you are trying to say that because it is wet it has to be in water. And that is not necessarily true.

The text

1 Corinthians 12:27–31 (LEB) — 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of it individually, 28 and whom God has appointed in the church: first, apostles, second, prophets, third, teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helps, administrations, kinds of tongues. 29 Not all are apostles, are they? Not all are prophets, are they? Not all are teachers, are they? Not all are workers of miracles, are they? 30 Not all have gifts of healing, do they? Not all speak with tongues, do they? Not all interpret, do they? 31 But strive for the greater gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.

 

[Fred]

There is ONLY ONE BAPTISM in the NT Church.

The evidence I supplied concerning Galatians 3:27 has still not been refuted.

 

[Jim]

It is taught they were in the church.
See 1 Corinthians 12:28 for help.

1Co 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.

That does not say what you want it to say. It says that in the church there are those various miracles and gifts, one being speaking in tongues. It does not say that only in the church are those gifts given.

 

[Jim]

This is very easy.

Eph 4:5 says that there is only one baptism in the NT Church.
Matt 28:19 says that the teacher of the Gospel is to do the baptizing of their students.
Acts 2:38 says that the student must submit to being baptized.
1 Pet 3:21 says that it is in water baptism that we are saved.
These passages show that the baptism in which we are saved is the baptism that man does, man receives, and that water is the medium of that baptism.

Further, since there is only one baptism in the NT Church:
Gal 3:26-27 says that in this baptism we are clothed with Christ and become children of God.
Eph 5:26-26 says that in this baptism we are washed clean of all stains of sin and made perfect.
Rom 6:1-7 says that in this baptism we die to sin and are united with the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Col 2:11-14 says that in this baptism sin is cut from us and we are united with Jesus' resurrection.

So when Jesus says that we cannot enter the Kingdom of God (be saved) unless we are born of water and the Spirit (John 3:3, 5), we must accept that He is in agreement with the rest of His Scripture and that these passages all agree.

Actually, properly translated/interpreted, Matthew 28:19-20 says that baptizing and teaching are how disciples are to be made. At that point in Jesus' teaching, water baptism was the only baptism.

 

[Jim]

If one has been "given" the Holy Spirit then he/she dwells in God (1 John 4:13).
Cornelius and the other Gentiles with him were "given" the Holy Spirit before their water baptism (Acts 15:8).
Therefore, Cornelius and the other Gentiles with him dwelt in God before their water baptism.

To be given the Holy Spirit in 1 John 4:13 is speaking of the indwelling Holy Spirit. That says nothing about being given the empowering Holy Spirit to work miracles. That has been going on certainly since the time of Moses and says nothing about those given the empowering Holy Spirit being saved.

 

[mailmandan]

There is only one baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is SPIRIT baptism, not water baptism.

Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. *Also see John 4:10,14; 7:37 for the word drink(s).

 

[Fred]

1Co 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.

That does not say what you want it to say. It says that in the church there are those various miracles and gifts, one being speaking in tongues. It does not say that only in the church are those gifts given.

Supply one example where an unbeliever during the new covenant had the gift of tongues.

Hint: You can't.

 

[Fred]

To be given the Holy Spirit in 1 John 4:13 is speaking of the indwelling Holy Spirit. That says nothing about being given the empowering Holy Spirit to work miracles. That has been going on certainly since the time of Moses and says nothing about those given the empowering Holy Spirit being saved.

The same Greek word for "given" (didōmi) is used both in Acts 15:8 and 1 John 4:13. Your distinction between indwelling and empowering concerning the Holy Spirit is a man-made one. Not one example exists of this in the New Covenant.

 

[Jim]

Supply one example where an unbeliever during the new covenant had the gift of tongues.

Hint: You can't.

Cornelius was a believer in God. He was not a believer in Jesus Christ as the Son of God until Peter spoke to him. And he was not saved until he was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of his sins and to receive the gift, the INDWELLING, of the Holy Spirit.

Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

 

[Jim]

The same Greek word for "given" (didōmi) is used both in Acts 15:8 and 1 John 4:13. Your distinction between indwelling and empowering concerning the Holy Spirit is a man-made one. Not one example exists of this in the New Covenant.

The account of Philip in Samaria (Acts 8) describes that very distinction. If you do not understand that distinction then you do not understand that account.

 

[Jim]

There is only one baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is SPIRIT baptism, not water baptism.

Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. *Also see John 4:10,14; 7:37 for the word drink(s).

There is one baptism, two results, namely forgiveness of sins and the giving of the gift of the Holy Spirit. The baptism in/with/by the Holy Spirit occurs in water baptism and is the giving of the gift of the Holy Spirit.