Sealed by the baptism en the Holy Ghost

[Jim]

I believe what the Bible teaches.

You only think you do.

You have nothing against the evidence I supplied.

You supplied only your own misguided thinking, but not any evidence.

Run along...

Said the cripple.

 

[Fred]

You only think you do.

You supplied only your own misguided thinking, but not any evidence.

All the Greek lexicons are wrong but your delusion is correct.
Yeah, okay. Run with that.

 

[Jim]

All the Greek lexicons are wrong but your delusion is correct.
Yeah, okay. Run with that.

All the Greek lexicons???

 

[dwight92070]

Yes, I do. Acts 10:44. All (both the Gentiles who were not saved, and the Jews who were) who heard the message (just hearing does not save) received the empowerment of the Spirit.

The ONLY reason you feel compelled to insist that Cornelius and his family and friends were NOT saved when the Holy Spirit fell on them - is because you MUST believe they were saved later at their baptism in water, so that it won't contradict your pet legalistic, false doctrine - that baptism is required in order to be saved - which NO scripture validates.
Also, just as Fred has said, NO New Covenant scripture (and we are dealing with the New Covenant here) shows anyone being baptized in the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were saved - NOT in Acts 10 or anywhere else. But again, you MUST deny that truth in order to hang on to your false doctrine.

 

[Fred]

All the Greek lexicons???

I quoted from the BDAG (3rd Edition) and from Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament.

No Greek lexicon was quoted that refuted what they said.

 

[dwight92070]

The proof is included in post #79.

There is only one baptism in the NT Church (Eph 4:5), and that baptism is the baptism in which we are saved (Mark 16:16, 1 Pet 3:21), and it requires human action and water (Matt 28:19, 1 Pet 3:21, Acts 2:38).

You MUST misinterpret EVERY one of those verses, so they will fit in, with your false doctrine.

 

[Jim]

The ONLY reason you feel compelled to insist that Cornelius and his family and friends were NOT saved when the Holy Spirit fell on them - is because you MUST believe they were saved later at their baptism in water, so that it won't contradict your pet legalistic, false doctrine - that baptism is required in order to be saved - which NO scripture validates.
Also, just as Fred has said, NO New Covenant scripture (and we are dealing with the New Covenant here) shows anyone being baptized in the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were saved - NOT in Acts 10 or anywhere else. But again, you MUST deny that truth in order to hang on to your false doctrine.

And the only reason you feel as you do is because that you misguidedly think that baptism in the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit falling upon them. But baptism in the Holy Spirit is the giving of the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit. It is what happens in water baptism. It is what happens when one is born again in water and Spirit.

 

[dwight92070]

That statement makes a lie of 1 Pet 3:21, Acts 8:36, Matt 28:19, and other passages. Your doctrine must be true to ALL Scripture.

Matthew 28:19 requires salvation BEFORE water baptism. Why are you lying about that?

 

[Jim]

I quoted from the BDAG (3rd Edition) and from Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament.

No Greek lexicon was quoted that refuted what they said.

You should instead concentrate on what the Holy Spirit says in the Bible. You can find any number of Greek "sources" to prove whatever your beliefs might be.

 

[Fred]

You should instead concentrate on what the Holy Spirit says in the Bible. You can find any number of Greek "sources" to prove whatever your beliefs might be.

I go by how the words from the Bible are properly defined. I am not going by how you define them.

That would be playing make believe.

There comes a time to put away such childhood notions.

 

[Jim]

Matthew 28:19 requires salvation BEFORE water baptism. Why are you lying about that?

Matthew 28:10 identifies baptism and teaching as the method whereby disciples are made. That is simple Greek (and English) grammar. Baptizing and teaching are participles modifying the command "to make".

 

[Jim]

There comes a time to put away such childhood notions.

Let us know when you have done that.

 

[dwight92070]

And the only reason you feel as you do is because that you misguidedly think that baptism in the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit falling upon them. But baptism in the Holy Spirit is the giving of the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit. It is what happens in water baptism. It is what happens when one is born again in water and Spirit.

I was saved, born again, indwelt by the Holy Spirit BY FAITH - (which is confirmed by over 213 verses in the scripture) approximately two weeks BEFORE I was baptized. Of course this is true with millions of other believers, so your false teaching that water baptism is required for salvation - (which is confirmed by ZERO verses in the scripture) is a cruel lie which dishonors faith.

 

[Fred]

Let us know when you have done that.

Get a mirror.

 

[dwight92070]

Matthew 28:10 identifies baptism and teaching as the method whereby disciples are made. That is simple Greek (and English) grammar. Baptizing and teaching are participles modifying the command "to make".

False. First of all, it's NOT Matthew 28:10 - it's Matthew 28:19-20. You can't even agree with the order given in those verses.

Your order is 1. Baptizing, 2. Teaching 3. To make disciples.

But the order in Matthew 28:19-20 is 1. Make disciples (by faith) 2. Baptize them 3. Then teach them to obey all My commands.

So your twisting of the facts in these verses and their proper order is OBVIOUS.

This confirms my own personal experience and millions of others. We were first saved by faith with no works -Romans 4:5, Titus 3:5 "He saved us, NOT on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, (like baptism or confessing Jesus as Lord), but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration (this is NOT water baptism - the Greek word is "loutron" 3067 in Strong's, means a washing or a bath, but it can't be water baptism, because that WOULD BE a deed we have done in righteousness) and renewing by the Holy Spirit."

Obviously the washing referred to here is spiritual, not physical - we were cleansed of our sins by the blood of Jesus - and regenerated - born again with a new Spirit, the Holy Spirit.

Then, AFTER we were saved, by faith in the gospel, we obeyed Jesus and got baptized in water. THEN, we sat under teaching, urging us to obey Jesus' commands.

 

[Doug Brents]

No, you simply misinterpreted those verses.

No sir, I have not. You have set your doctrine, and then seek to twist verses to fit what you believe. Instead, you should read what Scripture says, and allow it to shape your doctrine.

In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you),

You are correct down to here. Baptism is not about washing dirt from the physical body.

"but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

Not just symbolized, but actually takes place during the action of being immersed in water. You seem to think that just because it is not about removing dirt from the body that the physical action doesn't matter. It does matter, because without the physical action, the Spiritual transaction does NOT take place.

Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, only the wicked in Noah's day came in contact with the water and they all perished.

*So, by Peter saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony in H20.

ROTFLMBO Noah and his family had faith in God, and in that faith they obeyed God's command to built the Ark into which God went and called them in with Him. Today, just as then, our faith must be shown in our obedience to God's command. It is in the obedience that we receive salvation. Noah was saved physically in the Ark, but he was saved spiritually through obedience to God (this is why he was considered righteous even before the Flood occurred).

In regard to Acts 8:36, the eunuch was saved when he believed in Jesus Christ (compare with John 20:31) before he was water baptized.

No, he was not. Else Jesus lied to Nicodemus when he told him that no one could be born again without water and the Spirit.

In regard to Matthew 28:19, we have here a command from Jesus here to go and make disciples of all nations and baptize them. However, it does not say here that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation.

Matt 28:19 and Mark 16:16 depict the same event. Mark says that those who are baptized will be saved, so the baptism spoken of in Matthew is referring to the baptism in which we are saved. And this baptism must be done by man; it is NOT "Spirit baptism".

Also, see post #113.

False. Acts 10:43 - Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”

Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

When he asks, "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?", what is Peter really asking? He is asking the Jews with him if they have any doubt that God will allow the Gentiles into the Church. He is stating that it is through water (water baptism) that they join (and are joined to) the Church, and he sees in the Spirit's gifting of tongues to the Gentiles clear indication that God is inviting them into the Church with the Jews. He knows that the gifting of the Spirit in power did not indicate them already having been saved, because that would negate Jesus' own words in John 3:5.

 

[mailmandan]

No sir, I have not. You have set your doctrine, and then seek to twist verses to fit what you believe. Instead, you should read what Scripture says, and allow it to shape your doctrine.

You are correct down to here. Baptism is not about washing dirt from the physical body.

Not just symbolized, but actually takes place during the action of being immersed in water. You seem to think that just because it is not about removing dirt from the body that the physical action doesn't matter. It does matter, because without the physical action, the Spiritual transaction does NOT take place.

ROTFLMBO Noah and his family had faith in God, and in that faith they obeyed God's command to built the Ark into which God went and called them in with Him. Today, just as then, our faith must be shown in our obedience to God's command. It is in the obedience that we receive salvation. Noah was saved physically in the Ark, but he was saved spiritually through obedience to God (this is why he was considered righteous even before the Flood occurred).

No, he was not. Else Jesus lied to Nicodemus when he told him that no one could be born again without water and the Spirit.

Matt 28:19 and Mark 16:16 depict the same event. Mark says that those who are baptized will be saved, so the baptism spoken of in Matthew is referring to the baptism in which we are saved. And this baptism must be done by man; it is NOT "Spirit baptism".

When he asks, "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?", what is Peter really asking? He is asking the Jews with him if they have any doubt that God will allow the Gentiles into the Church. He is stating that it is through water (water baptism) that they join (and are joined to) the Church, and he sees in the Spirit's gifting of tongues to the Gentiles clear indication that God is inviting them into the Church with the Jews. He knows that the gifting of the Spirit in power did not indicate them already having been saved, because that would negate Jesus' own words in John 3:5.

 

[Doug Brents]

The ONLY reason you feel compelled to insist that Cornelius and his family and friends were NOT saved when the Holy Spirit fell on them - is because you MUST believe they were saved later at their baptism in water, so that it won't contradict your pet legalistic, false doctrine - that baptism is required in order to be saved - which NO scripture validates.

No. It is because to believe they were saved by the Spirit falling on them in power would contradict many other passages of Scripture. What I see you and fred and dan and others doing with this passage is defining passages of instruction based upon an interpretation of events in a descriptive passage. Rather, we must use the passages of instruction to show us what happened in the description of events.

Also, just as Fred has said, NO New Covenant scripture (and we are dealing with the New Covenant here) shows anyone being baptized in the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were saved - NOT in Acts 10 or anywhere else. But again, you MUST deny that truth in order to hang on to your false doctrine.

Again, no. The many passages that tell us that salvation is received in/during/by baptism in water are very clear and explicit. And they must hold the authority over the interpretation of events like those in Acts 10. What does Scripture say Cornelius received when the Spirit fell ON him? "Praise and tongues". He received empowerment just as those in the upper room on Pentecost did. Even the Jews with Peter in Cornelius' house received the same empowerment as the Gentiles did, for He fell on "all those who were listening". These Jews were already part of the Church, so they were already indwelt and did not need "re-indwelling". But we can all receive additional empowerment.

Yes, all of this deals with the New Covenant, but the stories of the Old Covenant are there for us to learn from, and to see how God deals with mankind. The evidence from the OC is that God can empower anyone and anything at any time regardless of the condition (or even presence) of its soul. The only change from the OC to the NC is that in the NC He added indwelling the hearts of those who are His, rather than simply residing with/on them.

 

[Jim]

False. First of all, it's NOT Matthew 28:10 - it's Matthew 28:19-20. You can't even agree with the order given in those verses.

Your order is 1. Baptizing, 2. Teaching 3. To make disciples.

But the order in Matthew 28:19-20 is 1. Make disciples (by faith) 2. Baptize them 3. Then teach them to obey all My commands.

So your twisting of the facts in these verses and their proper order is OBVIOUS.

This confirms my own personal experience and millions of others. We were first saved by faith with no works -Romans 4:5, Titus 3:5 "He saved us, NOT on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, (like baptism or confessing Jesus as Lord), but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration (this is NOT water baptism - the Greek word is "loutron" 3067 in Strong's, means a washing or a bath, but it can't be water baptism, because that WOULD BE a deed we have done in righteousness) and renewing by the Holy Spirit."

Obviously the washing referred to here is spiritual, not physical - we were cleansed of our sins by the blood of Jesus - and regenerated - born again with a new Spirit, the Holy Spirit.

Then, AFTER we were saved, by faith in the gospel, we obeyed Jesus and got baptized in water. THEN, we sat under teaching, urging us to obey Jesus' commands.

You need to go back to grade school and study English.

 

[Doug Brents]

Matthew 28:19 requires salvation BEFORE water baptism. Why are you lying about that?

No, it does not. It says to go and make disciples (learners/followers) baptize them into Christ. It is in baptism (the one baptism that exists in the NT Church (Eph 4:5), water baptism (1 Pet 3:21)) that we die to sin (Rom 6:3). It is in baptism that we are saved (1 Pet 3:21). It is in baptism that we are clothed with Christ and become God's children (Gal 3:26-27). It is in being washed with water (water baptism) that we are made pure and spotless (Eph 5:26-27). Matt 28:19 cannot disagree with these passages, nor does it invalidate them, or change what they mean.