Sealed by the baptism en the Holy Ghost

TomL said:
i quoted scripture while you merely post your thoughts
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Correction: You posted YOUR / your Denomination's INTERPRETATION of Scripture.

The reality is: Salvation = Holy Spirit INDWELLING the person as a result of their repentance and FAITH in the Sin offering of Jesus.

Baptism in the Holy SPirit = The Holy Spirit ON a person, as it was in the OLD TESTAMENT (Before the Holy Spirit indwelled anybody) when people (and occasionally animals or even inanimate objects) were empowered to do supernatural things.
 
Bob Carabbio said:
Correction: You posted YOUR / your Denomination's INTERPRETATION of Scripture.

The reality is: Salvation = Holy Spirit INDWELLING the person as a result of their repentance and FAITH in the Sin offering of Jesus.

Baptism in the Holy SPirit = The Holy Spirit ON a person, as it was in the OLD TESTAMENT (Before the Holy Spirit indwelled anybody) when people (and occasionally animals or even inanimate objects) were empowered to do supernatural things.
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There was no Baptism en the Spirit in the Old Testament and the baptism en the Spirit includes the indwelling

Further, you just ignored this

This is the baptism en the Spirit

1 Corinthians 12:13 — 13 For en one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

it is saving and includes the indwelling

Acts 1:4–5 (NASB95) — 4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

In this baptism one receives the promise of the Father

Here is an example of a promise of the Father

Ezekiel 36:26–27 (NASB95) — 26 “Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

This was to be received by the baptism en the spirit as promised by Jesus
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we see such transpiring among the gentiles here

Acts 11:15–16 (LEB) — 15 And as I was beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as also on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

being baptized en the Spirit

they received the Spirit

Acts 10:44–47 (LEB) — 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all those who were listening to the message. 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did!”
Acts 15:8 (LEB) — 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us.
 
Jim said:
Cornelius and the other Gentiles with him were given the power of the Holy Spirit to work the miracle of speaking in tongues. That is quite apart from the indwelling Holy Spirit received upon being saved.
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If one has the gift of tongues then he/she is in the church (1 Cor. 12:28).
 
Fred said:
If one has the gift of tongues then he/she is in the church (1 Cor. 12:28).
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That verse says that the gift of tongues is one of the gifts of the Spirit. But it does not say that one has to be in the Church to have that gift.

In other terms, this verse says that things that are in water are wet, and you are trying to say that because it is wet it has to be in water. And that is not necessarily true.
 
Doug Brents said:
That verse says that the gift of tongues is one of the gifts of the Spirit. But it does not say that one has to be in the Church to have that gift.
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The boldface below is mine for you to be able to see it.

1 Corinthians 12;28
And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

All these gifts are given to those in the church "for the common good" (1 Cor. 12:7).
 
Fred said:
The boldface below is mine for you to be able to see it.

1 Corinthians 12;28
And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

All these gifts are given to those in the church "for the common good" (1 Cor. 12:7).
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Precisely. In the Church these gifts are in the order of importance given. But that does not make them exclusively given within the Church. These gifts can be, and have been, given outside the Church, and even outside the human race (ie: Balaam's donkey).
 
Fred said:
Yes, it does.
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In your opinion it does, but not according to Scripture.
Fred said:
Different covenant.
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The different covenant doesn't change the empowerment of the Spirit. The New Covenant brought about the indwelling of the Spirit, but the empowerment of the Spirit remained the same across the covenants.
Fred said:
But you have been told this before. You love your heresy.
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No, I love the truth. In your opinion, the truth is heresy, just as it was with the Pharisees. But the truth does not change just because you don't believe it.
 
Doug Brents said:
In your opinion it does, but not according to Scripture.
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1 Corinthians 12:28 is Scripture.

Doug Brents said:
The different covenant doesn't change the empowerment of the Spirit.
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Yes, it does for now He permanently indwells the believer.



When coming to Acts 10:46 keep in mind when Luke presents people speaking in tongues in the Book of Acts it always refers to saved people. All the examples agree with this.

None agree with your outlandish assertion.
 
Fred said:
1 Corinthians 12:28 is Scripture.
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Indeed it is, but your interpretation of it is not.
Fred said:
Yes, it does for now He permanently indwells the believer.
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That is what I said. But His indwelling does not impact His ability to empower those whom He does not indwell. Nor does it mean that He MUST empower those He indwells. As I have told you before, these are completely different functions of the Spirit, and are not mutually inclusive.
Fred said:
When coming to Acts 10:46 keep in mind when Luke presents people speaking in tongues in the Book of Acts it always refers to saved people. All the examples agree with this.

None agree with your outlandish assertion.
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Not all of the people Luke presents as speaking in tongues were saved when they began speaking in tongues. Cornelius most certainly was not.
 
Doug Brents said:
Indeed it is, but your interpretation of it is not.
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Tongues are for those "in the church". You have zero passages where during the church age an unbeliever has this NT gift.


Doug Brents said:
Not all of the people Luke presents as speaking in tongues were saved when they began speaking in tongues. Cornelius most certainly was not.
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No proof.

100% of the time Luke presents this as belonging to saved people.

I'll stick with the 100%.
You can relish the 0% all you want.
 
Fred said:
Tongues are for those "in the church". You have zero passages where during the church age an unbeliever has this NT gift.
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Yes, I do. Acts 10:44. All (both the Gentiles who were not saved, and the Jews who were) who heard the message (just hearing does not save) received the empowerment of the Spirit.
 
Fred said:
Tongues are for those "in the church". You have zero passages where during the church age an unbeliever has this NT gift.




No proof.

100% of the time Luke presents this as belonging to saved people.

I'll stick with the 100%.
You can relish the 0% all you want.
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Wrong. Cornelius and the other Gentiles were not stated to be in the church.
 
Jim said:
Cornelius and the other Gentiles with him were given the power of the Holy Spirit to work the miracle of speaking in tongues. That is quite apart from the indwelling Holy Spirit received upon being saved.
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If one has been "given" the Holy Spirit then he/she dwells in God (1 John 4:13).
Cornelius and the other Gentiles with him were "given" the Holy Spirit before their water baptism (Acts 15:8).
Therefore, Cornelius and the other Gentiles with him dwelt in God before their water baptism.
 
Fred said:
No proof for that.
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Yes, there is.
Jesus said that you must be born again of water and the Spirit in order to be in born again (John 3:3, 5).
Being born again is synonymous with being in the Church, being saved, having the indwelling of the Spirit.
The Gentiles in Cornelius' house received the Spirit (tongues and praise (Acts 10:46)), but they had not yet been born again because they had not yet passed through water.
The Gentiles here were saved (and received the indwelling of the Spirit (a completely different function of the Spirit from empowerment)) when they were baptized into Christ (Gal 3:27, Rom 6:3) in water (1 Pet 3:21, Acts 2:38, Matt 28:19).
 
Fred said:
You must prove that "water" must refer to Christian water baptism in this passage.

Go ahead...
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This is very easy.

Eph 4:5 says that there is only one baptism in the NT Church.
Matt 28:19 says that the teacher of the Gospel is to do the baptizing of their students.
Acts 2:38 says that the student must submit to being baptized.
1 Pet 3:21 says that it is in water baptism that we are saved.
These passages show that the baptism in which we are saved is the baptism that man does, man receives, and that water is the medium of that baptism.

Further, since there is only one baptism in the NT Church:
Gal 3:26-27 says that in this baptism we are clothed with Christ and become children of God.
Eph 5:26-26 says that in this baptism we are washed clean of all stains of sin and made perfect.
Rom 6:1-7 says that in this baptism we die to sin and are united with the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Col 2:11-14 says that in this baptism sin is cut from us and we are united with Jesus' resurrection.

So when Jesus says that we cannot enter the Kingdom of God (be saved) unless we are born of water and the Spirit (John 3:3, 5), we must accept that He is in agreement with the rest of His Scripture and that these passages all agree.
 

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