Satan and his Lies

[Studyman]

@Studyman

After God created both angels and man, he left them to themselves, to the power of their free will, and we all know the end of that.

It is foolish to continue with you. Nevertheless, this lie needs to be exposed. God never left Eve or Lucifer to themselves or to the power of their own free will. They both had God's Law that was given to them to limit the power of their free will, to protect them from it. They both knew and understood the Law. Just as Noah and Gabriel knew and understood the Law. One believed God, the other didn't. Now you preach, as evidenced by your last question, that it is God's Fault Eve didn't believe God, because she wasn't "First "born of God". Therefore it is impossible to believe God.

" NO, "no man" has the power to believe God on his own power without first being born of God."

Your peaching that EVE "couldn't" believe God because God withheld from her from the power to believe Him, is wicked. And not supported in scriptures at all.

I'm not lying about your preaching, I'm replying to your own worlds. Paul exposes this foolishness.

Rom. 10: 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then "shall they call on him" in whom they have not believed? and "how shall they "believe in him"" "of whom they have not heard"? and "how shall they hear" without a preacher?

If you would stop preaching from the imagination of your own heart, and turn away from the religions of this world, and place your trust in what is actually written, you would become renewed in the spirit of your mind. But of your own free will, you choose to adopt Calvinism. You should ask yourself "why".

 

[Studyman]

The Law of Moses condemns every Jew (by revelation) and Gentile (by conscience) to death, because we have failed to keep its righteousness, which is necessary to stand before God without being condemned to the lake of fire, which is the second death. . Who could keep every precept of Moses with a perfect heart to fulfill perfect righteousness? Not man, but Jesus Christ alone.

Another lie. God knew from the foundation of the world, that His children, like any child, would fall before learning to walk. Jesus was slain from the foundation of the World for this very purpose. Paul tells us why the penalty of sin was so steep, death, if you would only believe him.

Rom. 7: 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good "made death unto me"? God forbid.

That means no Red, The Law of God He gave to Moses, that is holy, and just, and good, was "NOT" to condemn every Jew and Gentile to Death. You preach it did, "Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, preaches that it did, But Paul tells you right here, that NO, God Law was NOT created to make Paul dead. God forbid. So why then, is the wages of Sin "Death" then? Paul tells you.

But sin, that it might appear sin, "working death in me by that which is good"; that sin by the commandment might become "exceeding sinful".

The wages of Sin being death, is there so that men will understand how exceedingly wicked it is to reject God's Judgment. It's really really evil and wicked to know God's Law, but to exalt yourself above it, and reject it of your own free will, like Adam and Lucifer. This is why Jesus told those men who He healed, "No go and Sin no more".

those who blow of God's Laws as "Beggarly Element", Rudiments of this world no different than Pagan rituals and traditions, are super wicked. Exceedingly evil. But they don't know it, because as promised, God has given them over to the lusts of their own flesh. (Rom. 1: 21-24) God sent His Own Son to atone for the sins of the repentant. But those who blow off God's Law as irrelevant, of their own free will, like Adam and Lucifer and Sodom did, That is really really bad.

This is what Paul is teaching about the Law and the steep penalty for rejecting it.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman BTW, God didn't blame the devil for Adam and Eves sin.

I know this was written to civic, so I will let him answer his own post. I want to take one sentence you said and just give proof that God did curse the serpent for being used of the devil himself in deceiving Eve. Actually God pronounces four different judgements on all four that were guilty.

Genesis 3: 12-19~"And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; (the devil) it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

BTW, God didn't blame the devil for Adam and Eves sin.

2nd Corinthians 11:3​

“But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.”

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

It is foolish to continue with you.

And you do no think others are not thinking the same about you? You might be one of the most deceived person I have ever encounter. Your delusion is very strong.

God never left Eve or Lucifer to themselves or to the power of their own free will.

Then I ask you this question: why did they sinned? He could have prevented it if He so desire to do so. They sinned as the fallen angles did, because God alone is immutable, and cannot be tempted to sin ~ in spite of what you think man is capable of without God securing their salvation from death and condemnation. Your opinion of man is against the scriptures, much higher than Christ knew about man!

John 2:24,25​

“But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.”

Of course he left them to themselves and we see the results of doing so. He elected some of he angels, because he knew that if he did not do so, then they too would have left their own estate in which they were created in. There is so much of the word of God that you reject ~ and what you do not reject, you do not understand, which is very evident when you attempted to explain it, you just gloss over it as though you were explaining them as you did with Romans 8:1-10, etc. pitiful.

1st Timothy 5:21​

“I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.”

God never left Eve or Lucifer to themselves or to the power of their own free will. They both had God's Law that was given to them to limit the power of their free will, to protect them from it. They both knew and understood the Law.

Why are you using Eve and Lucifer as two separate entities, when you do not believe that is so? You believe that Eve's mind was Lucifer, that's deceitful if you ask me. An easy way to deceived young believers.

Also, God only gave Adam and Eve one simple commandment to keep, and placed them in a beautiful garden, and then left them to themselves, and we see the results of that, and not only see it but have felt the sorrows of it until this very day. Man and angels are not immutable and can be tempted to sin, and will if opportunity present itself, unless God protects them, or gives them an heart that truly fears him and the consequences of sinning.

Gabriel knew and understood the Law.

Studyman, who is Gabriel in your theology?

Just as Noah and Gabriel knew and understood the Law.

Noah FIRST found grace in the eyes of the LORD, and apart from that, he would have been no better than the ones that perished in flood. To believe otherwise is to deny the word of God and to exalt man above what the scriptures said of man.

Now you preach, as evidenced by your last question, that it is God's Fault Eve didn't believe God, because she wasn't "First "born of God". Therefore it is impossible to believe God.

Wrong as usual. God created Adam and Eve after his image, upright, without indwelling sin. There was no need of the new birth, since there were no siiners expect fallen angels whom God made no provisions for. You have trouble of being honest.

NO, "no man" has the power to believe God on his own power without first being born of God."

That is the truth of all born through Adam's posterity, that comes through his loins.

Your peaching that EVE "couldn't" believe God because God withheld from her from the power to believe Him, is wicked. And not supported in scriptures at all.

Before her fall, she knew God her Creator. God does not withhold form man believing, his depraved heart is his enemy, that was given to him by his disobedience. He did take on the image of Satan in this sense, he lost God's image as it was stolen from him by the old serpent.

Rom. 10: 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then "shall they call on him" in whom they have not believed? and "how shall they "believe in him"" "of whom they have not heard"? and "how shall they hear" without a preacher?

You have no clue as to what Paul is saying ~ Paul is speaking about one's practical salvation from ignorance to the truth of Christ's gospel. As you say...read the context from Romans 1-13! Paul was speaking concerning those who did fear God, yet lack true knowledge of Jesus Christ and the righteousness he obtained for his people, going about to establish their own righteousness. I have addressed Romans 10:1-13 before on this forum, not going through this again at the moment.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

Another lie.

So, you are saying that:

Who could keep every precept of Moses with a perfect heart to fulfill perfect righteousness? Not man, but Jesus Christ alone.

Is this a lie? If you believe this, then you sir, are still in your sins, and will died in those sins and face the lake of fire.

Acts 4:12​

“Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

Jesus was made a curse for his people by offering up himself ~ his perfect life of faith and obedience for our sins. No man is able to keep the law of God in thoughts, words, and deeds, no man but ONE ~ the Son of God.

So, pray to tell me what was a lie in my statement. Here is it again, word for word:

The Law of Moses condemns every Jew (by revelation) and Gentile (by conscience) to death, because we have failed to keep its righteousness, which is necessary to stand before God without being condemned to the lake of fire, which is the second death. . Who could keep every precept of Moses with a perfect heart to fulfill perfect righteousness? Not man, but Jesus Christ alone.

Rom. 7: 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good "made death unto me"? God forbid.

That means no Red, The Law of God He gave to Moses, that is holy, and just, and good, was "NOT" to condemn every Jew and Gentile to Death. You preach it did,

I'm assuming you mean that God's law was not given to condemn sinners both Jews and Gentiles. Let's look at this.

Romans 7:13​

“Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.”

Was then that which is good made death unto me?

The law against covetousness (7:7) was good, as Paul declared in the previous verse (7;12). Was Paul’s death by the commandment against lust due to the law or to his sin (7:9)? There is a conceptual sense in which law causes sin (Romans 4:15), but not in this context. The commandment did not condemn or kill Paul, but rather his lust that violated it.

God forbid.

The emphatic negative here is further evidence of Paul’s primary or exclusive design, which is to defend the Law and himself against any slanderous charges against the Law. God’s law reflects God Himself, and He does not kill unjustly. Sin by the Law is what kills.

But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good.

Sin’s violation of a good commandment does not condemn the commandment, but rather sin! What evil inside! If a holy, just, and good commandment that we assume is for salvation and that we know is for our good results in condemning us to death – we are incredibly sinful! How can something so noble and virtuous expose our sinfulness? By our depraved natures! @Studyman a truth you reject.

It was sin that condemned and killed Paul, not the Law revealing how sinful he actually was. The Law, or any commandment, is only a statement of God’s righteousness that sin violates.

The Law, by having life or death attached, exposed Paul’s wickedness and condemned him. The Law, for every individual, prepares us for needing and appreciating Jesus our Saviour ~so Paul said the law it is OUR schoolmaster! Conviction for sin is essential to properly grasp and appreciate the gospel for faith in Christ.

That sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

The main design of Moses' Law, and the tenth commandment, was to aggravate the evil of sin. When something holy, just, and good brings condemnation and death, then sin is very bad. The Law makes sin sinful, rather than making the Law sinful, to answer the question (7:7). The exceeding sinfulness of sin is made clear by men breaking a holy rule they trust for life. The exceeding sinfulness of sin is made clear by men breaking a holy rule they know is good. The Law exposes our depraved wickedness by something holy, just, good, and spiritual. Holiness leads to humility, for the more we grasp of God’s holy law the more sinful we are. The word of God declares His law for our lives and is useful in driving us to Christ, for until and unless we have the same conviction and guilt of Paul, how can we assume his salvation?

I'm coming back to finish

 

[civic]

I believe the devil is real, I just don't believe the teaching of this worlds religions you have adopted concerning it. And no doubt there were immortal angels with free will, that rejected the boundaries and limitations given them from God, and sinned, just as Adam and Eve rejected the boundaries and limitation for their free will given to them by God, And sinned.

So who "deceived the angels that sinned"? Whose voice did Lucifer listen to? In God's Kingdom where the Angels lived, who was the "prince of that world" the ruler of the darkness in the high places in the Kingdom Lucifer was kicked out of, "Because he sinned".

Wasn't Lucifer and Eve both created a perfect being with free will??

Ez. 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;
"every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

Who is this? Adam and Eve yes? Or Lucifer?

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Who said this in their heart? Adam and Eve did, Yes? Or Lucifer?

How can you say that Adam and Eve didn't choose, of her own free will, to do, from the heart, the exact same thing "the devil" did.

Now you and Red and "Many" who come in Christ's Name, calling Jesus Lord, Lord, say it wasn't something from inside Eve that cause her to reject God's Law, because she was created perfect, it was the "devil" from without that caused her sin. That is your judgment BTW, God didn't blame the devil for Adam and Eves sin.

So who caused Lucifer's sin then? Since he was perfect in his ways from the day he was created, just like Adam and Eve. Since he was in the kingdom of God with Gabriel and other righteous angels where there was no sin, just like Adam and Eve. How is it Lucifer sinned? If Eve was not defiled from within, but from without, as you guys preach, where did the iniquity come from in Lucifer.

You guys won't even discuss it. There is no seeking to know God with this world's religions, the only thing you seek is self justification. Just like Adam and just like Eve. But not like Abel or Noah or Abraham.



Here is undeniable Truth. A being with Free Will must have boundaries and limitations or death and misery and destruction will swallow their kingdom.

Even God, the Greatest Power Free Will to ever exists, places limitations on His Own Free will, on Himself, for the good of His Kingdom. He is a Just God. No one makes Him be a just God, HE "Chooses" of His own free will, to be Just. He is a Merciful God. He doesn't have to be, and what could we do about it if HE chose not to be? But HE is Merciful because HE chooses, of His Own Free Will, to be Merciful.

God loved Adam and Eve, and created them after His own image, to have Free will. And HE gave them "limitations and boundaries" to this free will to keep them from destroying themselves with the potential for Lust that comes with free will. A Lust that will destroy the entire Kingdom if it is not ruled over. Lucifer was also given limitations to his free will. He, like Eve, rejected it, from his own free will, from the lust of his own heart.

As a free will being, we have the ability to "choose" to submit to the Limitations God created for us, or reject it. Lucifer rejected it. Adam and Eve rejected it. Abel and Noah didn't reject it.

This isn't a man-made religion, it's the teaching of God to His People who seek to know Him. There is someone on this forum who understands what I am saying, because they too, are interested in more than just self justification, like Adam and Eve. "It was the serpent God placed in the garden that caused me to reject God's Love" not the lusts of my own mind. It was the woman God gave me, that caused me to reject God's Love, not the lust that was in my own mind".

But God teaches differently. Men are defiled by things from within, not without.

"For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

Answer the question, "Where did this lust in Lucifer come from"? The answer is, the exact same place the same lust in Eve came from.

Evil did not exist before the fall of the devil and his angels.

 

[Affinity]

God is always honest with us. He always tells the truth, even when the truth is hard for us to accept. God “does not lie.” In fact, “it is impossible for God to lie,” He is the foundation and the source of truth. There is nothing artificial, phony, or misleading about him.

Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

By contrast, Satan is always dishonest. He constantly twists the truth, even when his words sound safe and compelling on the surface.

Jesus said this about the devil, “There is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies” John 8:44

In the Garden of Eden, Satan deceived Adam and Eve, and ever since he’s been doing his best to create a deceptive environment where “evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.” 2 Tim 3:13

Jesus tells us of a big wide road many people travel, and it could also be called the “LIE,” for it is a road based on Satan’s misinformation. “Enter through the narrow gate,” Jesus warned. “For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it” Matt 7:13-14

 

[Studyman]

@Studyman BTW, God didn't blame the devil for Adam and Eves sin.

YESSSSS. That is the point of my entire reply. God DID NOT blame an evil, an adversary, "another voice", "from without" of the mind and heart of Adam and Eve for their Sin. They, "of their own free will", given to them at creation, "CHOSE" to reject God's Law that HE gave them.

God wants men to "Choose" HIM of their own free will, Like Noah did.

They could have used their own free will, that God gave them, to "Choose" to "Yield themselves" to Him and not the world around them.

But they didn't. Of their own free will given to them at creation, they "Chose" to reject God. Just as Lucifer did. Then when they realized their Sin, the "chose" to "Justify themselves". "It wasn't my fault". It was the talking snake "You" created. It was the woman "You gave to me".

I have come to understand that this is the lesson God wants men to garner from this story. "to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted".

You and I and Civic have been taught by the religious voices in this world God placed us in, since our youth, and I believed for a long time, that Adam and Eve wasn't created with the free will capacity to "choose" evil. That they were created perfect, and therefore, in our minds that means they "couldn't" choose evil. That it was the devil from without that caused her to be evil.

But God didn't blame the devil. You do, Eve did, Civic does, I did in times past, this world's entire religious system does. You flat out said it was an evil from without, not from within, that deceived Eve. But God didn't. God blames Eve, punishes Eve for Eve's free will choice to reject Him in favor of her own lusts.

So that of itself, is us rejecting God's Judgment in favor of our own. Exalting ourselves above God, of our own free will. No one made you believe and preach to others that Eve wasn't defiled from things within her heart. Jesus even told you men are defiled from "Evil thoughts from within". But you "Choose", of your own free will, not to believe Him where Adam is concerned. And when it is pointed out to you, you choose of your own free will, to justify your choices.

That is us saying in our own heart, by our own free will, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

You and Civic and I were wrong to choose, of our own free will, to reject God's Judgment of Adam and Eve, that they were tempted when they were drawn away of their own lust and enticed. Like God tells us. Choosing instead to blame, as you still do, the evil that was from "Without" Adam and Eve's heart.

There are actually other voices in the world that God placed me in, that preach to the entire world that because of Adam's free will choice to reject God, I am now created "totally depraved". That God made me, from birth, have a "sin nature" because Adam sinned. We should, of our own free will, stop filling our heart with this wickedness.

This is why I asked Civic the question, "Who enticed Lucifer" to, of His Own perfect free will, sin against God? Who was his talking snake in the Kingdom HE was thrown out of? Where did the Lust that enticed him come from? The truth is, the same free will spirit that enticed Lucifer, also enticed Adam and Eve and also entice us to be "drawn away of our own lust".

So I won't be enticed from within, to listen to any "other voice" in the garden God placed me in. And God has given me the ability to "choose" Words to live by.

This is why God blamed Adam, for Adams sin, and blamed Lucifer, for Lucifer sins, and is the reason why the Christ inspires it to be written, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad".

And again;

"And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth "according to every man's work", pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

And again;

"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, "according to their deeds."

And again;

"If thou sayest, Behold, "we knew it not"; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man "according to his works"?

And lastly, the Christ Himself. "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man "according as his work shall be".

This is because "every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed".

This was true with the angels that sinned, it was true with Adam and Eve who sinned, and it's true with you and I.

It's also true with Noah and Abraham, Caleb and Shadrack, Daniel and Zacharias.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

YESSSSS. That is the point of my entire reply.

That was your quote to civic. That was my fault for not putting it in a quote box. I was quoting you. The rest of my post shows that to be so.

That was my fault, sorry.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

They could have used their own free will

After the fall of Adam and Eve, man is born into thsi world from Adam, in bondage to sin and the devil! There is no such thing as man having a "free" will. Sinners are dead spiritually speaking, so, in possible for them to do spiritual acts with a so-called free will, impossible.

Romans 9:16​

“So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.”

I'll be happy to discuss this doctrine with you.

 

[Studyman]

Evil did not exist before the fall of the devil and his angels.

Really, that is your answer to my questions? Where is this written in Scriptures?

How then did some, not all of the Angels in heaven with God, become evil? Where did this "evil " come from that was found in them, if Evil didn't exist as you preach? Were they not also created perfect, with Free will?

Are you saying then that an angel created evil in heaven with God, out of nothing, without God's knowledge?? Did God also forget to Warn the Angels of some danger from "Without", like you imply in your preaching that God forgot to warn Eve against?

If they sinned, that means God gave them Laws, same as Adam. Why did God give angels Laws, were they not created perfect, like Adam and Eve?

Where is the talking snake or deceiving spirit that enticed Angel's to Sin who were in heaven with God, where, according to your religion, NO EVIL Existed? Who then enticed Lucifer to sin?

Will you answer my questions, honestly engage? Or by your own free will, choose to deflect away from the discussion at hand?

 

[civic]

Really, that is your answer to my questions? Where is this written in Scriptures?

How then did some, not all of the Angels in heaven with God, become evil? Where did this "evil " come from that was found in them, if Evil didn't exist as you preach? Were they not also created perfect, with Free will?

Are you saying then that an angel created evil in heaven with God, out of nothing, without God's knowledge?? Did God also forget to Warn the Angels of some danger from "Without", like you imply in your preaching that God forgot to warn Eve against?

If they sinned, that means God gave them Laws, same as Adam. Why did God give angels Laws, were they not created perfect, like Adam and Eve?

Where is the talking snake or deceiving spirit that enticed Angel's to Sin who were in heaven with God, where, according to your religion, NO EVIL Existed? Who then enticed Lucifer to sin?

Will you answer my questions, honestly engage? Or by your own free will, choose to deflect away from the discussion at hand?

sin and evil are a result of the fall- they did not exist beforehand. Everything God created was GOOD- not evil or sinful.

 

[Studyman]

@Studyman

After the fall of Adam and Eve, man is born into thsi world from Adam, in bondage to sin and the devil!

That is your religion Red, adopted from this world's religious system. Adam sinned. Was he also then in bondage to sin and the devil? Or did Adam, of his own free will, given him by God, choose to sin? Who convinced you that because of Adams free will choice,, you have no choice, but to live in Sin. It's a lie promoted by the wicked and deceitful hearts of other men who have chosen of their free will, to reject God. You don't have to listen to them Red. You "choose", of your own free will, to listen to them. And God, as promised, has given you over to the lusts of your own heart.

But even now, as it is written, "Today, if you hear his Voice, harden not your hearts", Is this not written to everyone, even you?

Lucifer sinned. After the fall of Lucifer, was Adam then born into this world from Lucifer, in bondage to sin and the devil? Was it then Lucifers free will choice to sin, that caused Adam and Eve to fall?

Your adopted religious philosophy is foolishness Red. To believe it I would have to erase a 1/2, if not 3/4 of the Bible.

Please stop working so hard to justify your adopted religion Red, your every tradition, your every religious philosophy. You are wrong about this topic.

We all chose from the free will that God gave us, a free will where we are given the ability to "Choose" to listen to God, or "Choose" not to listen to God. It is not "EVIL" to have this choice as your religion implies. God gave men the choice, "And it was good".

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that "I have set before you" life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed "may live": 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them."

These are all men that you preach were born with a "sin nature".

This was the same for His angels, Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham and Sodom, the Children of Israel. Zacharias, Simeon and Cornelius.

You choose, of your own free will, to reject God, or obey God by virtue of the free will HE gave all of His creation that was created after His image. Just as Lucifer, just as Adam, just as David, just as Jesus, just as me.

Then we, Angels and men, are judged by our works, according as it is written.

Your religion blames someone else for your choices, same as Adam did, same as Eve. Abel and Noah and Abraham and Caleb, chose a different spirit. It is this spirit that I seek.

There is no such thing as man having a "free" will. Sinners are dead spiritually speaking, so, in possible for them to do spiritual acts with a so-called free will, impossible.

So then, Jesus said "Man shall live by Every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God"

But Red Baker says, "Don't listen to Jesus, listen to me, "It is not possible to Live by God's Word".

Jesus says, Now go and sin not more".

But Red baker says, "Don't listen to Jesus, listen to me. "It is not possible to go and sin no more".

Paul says, "Yield your mind to God and your body as instruments of righteousness unto God.

But Red Baker says, "Don't listen to Paul, listen to me, it is impossible for a man who sinned, to yield themselves to God and your bodies as instruments of God's Righteousness.

God told Adam and Eve, "if you eat from a specific tree, you will die.

But another voice said to Eve, "Don't listen to God, listen to me, "You shall surely not die, for eating of the forbidden tree".

God says, "Today, if you hear My voice, harden not your hearts".

But Red Baker says, don't listen to God, it is "impossible" to hearken unto God's Word.

You choose to adopt this world's religious philosophies, and promote them to others. Eve chose, of her own free will, to adopt the philosophies of "another voice, same as you, and promote them to others.

I have the God given ability to choose God's Word or your words. Because I understand the dangers of free will, I choose God to place the limitations on my free will.

I welcome you to do the same.

Romans 9:16​

“So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.”

Yes, God Chooses Mercy, Justice and limits on His Own Free will. Paul didn't wright this verse to justify the free will choice of men to reject Gods Word. That isn't what this chapter is about. He is talking about the Scriptures and what happened to Israel. As he also teaches in another place.

"Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore let him "that thinketh he standeth" take heed lest he fall.

That is why "YOU" posted it, to promote a religion that teaches, "Don't listen to Paul" listen to us Calvinists instead, it's impossible "that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand".

I'll be happy to discuss this doctrine with you.

I'm not interested in discussing your doctrines. You are, that is your mission here. I am interested in what God Word actually says. This is the contention between us.

 

[Studyman]

sin and evil are a result of the fall- they did not exist beforehand. Everything God created was GOOD- not evil or sinful.

How are angels defiled by something that doesn't even exist, or has never existed before? You are not making any sense.

This is what I mean. Men, of their own free will, have created, actually have adopted, their own judgments concerning good and not good. Just like Eve did. And they, like you are, refuse to consider that maybe it is "their" judgments that are evil. Consider the implications of the last 2 posts? You are implying that angels, in heaven with God, in God's Perfect Kingdom, "created Evil" out of absolutely nothing, right under God's nose.

"For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

You just said, "Everything God created was GOOD- not evil or sinful". I agree 100%. Yet this is the thoughts of a perfect angel, in HEAVEN with God, that HE created!! You say I make God out to be a liar, because I know it wasn't a voice from "Without" that defiled Eve. Just as I know it wasn't a voice from "without" that defiled Lucifer.

But the Evil was the same? God gave these two perfect creations, created after His Own image, perfect in HIS Eyes, Laws. Why did he do that?

You and Red preach to everyone that it was a voice from without that defiled Eve. This judgement of yours is opposite of Gods. You are making a mistake, and this from the dictates of your own heart, by your own free will choice.

So where did this evil thought in the heart of Lucifer come from, according to your adopted religion? Go to your teachers and ask them. Surely you must know, since you judged me, from your own heart, as a Liar for addressing these important topics.

I know why you can't answer because you have to save face and all. But I truly wish you could escape the bondage that won't let you engage in an honest and absolutely fascinating study of this topic for the edification of all. Surely there is someone on this forum that is pricked a little bit in their hearts over this topic, at least that is my sincere hope.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

Where is the talking snake or deceiving spirit that enticed Angel's to Sin who were in heaven with God, where, according to your religion, NO EVIL Existed? Who then enticed Lucifer to sin?

I have answered this many times over in the past year or so.

Once God created both angles and man, he left to themselves without any assistance to continue in the state in which they were created. All that God created was very good, the only exception being no angels or man are created with God's infinite attributes one of them being immutability. God alone is immutable, and cannot be tempted to sin, impossible. To secure some of the angles from leaving, he elected many of them, a number no man can number. That's why Paul mentioned the elect angels. One reason why Satan hates the doctrine of election of grace, he was not among them. Not a very good sign for man to hate this blessed truth. Sin was born in the heart of Lucifer when left to himself. God created all things, even knowing what would come to pass, that's why this scriptures is written.

Isaiah 45:7​

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

Proverbs 16:4​

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.​

Who is the true God? The LORD is His name! What does LORD mean? It is the English designation for the sacred Hebrew tetragrammaton, JHVH, which stands for I AM THAT I AM, which you pronounce as Jehovah! Allah is merely the moon god of hallucinating Arabians; Vishnu, Brahma, and Shiva are merely three of hundreds the Hindu imagined deities.

The LORD Jehovah is the true God. He is the only God. He looked for other gods, but He could not find any. He alone is God. He created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and all that is in them in six days. He is independent of all His creatures. He is infinite by any measure. He is eternal, immortal, invisible, omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.

Why does evil exist? Some believe the first three answers. They believe Jehovah created all things for Himself. But they limit His dominion by suggesting that wicked men and their sinful actions are outside His plan and control. To correct this false notion, Solomon immediately included even the wicked and their judgment in Jehovah’s creating of all things for Himself. Even wicked men and their eventual destruction are for God’s glory.

Evil exists because God gave Satan and man a free will. Rather than be content with his office, he swelled up in pride (1st Timothy 3:6). God gave him privilege and freedom, and he used it to rebel against his Creator. The blessed God was not surprised or disappointed; Satan is responsible for his wicked deed; God is righteous in tormenting him destroying for his sin.

Where does suffering come from? Satan brought his rebellion to earth. He lied to your first parents, and Adam chose his foolish wife over God. Jehovah made man very good in a perfect world, but man corrupted the earth by sinning against His Maker (Gensisi 1:31 3:16-19; etc). Adam chose the curse of sin for his family over Paradise with God. The whole creation groans in pain, travail, and death due to his sin (Romans 5:12-14; 8:22).

Evolutionists cannot explain death. It should have evolved away long ago, since it is the most dreaded and hated thing in life. If a slimy salamander can evolve to be a bald eagle, then surely man could have evolved death away. Death is the wages of sin. And the Bible teaches this fact clearly, which no evolutionist will ever find in a test tube or telescope. God created death, in several forms, as just punishment for sin. Therefore, all men die.

Adam’s sin in the Garden of Eden did not surprise or confuse the LORD. He had planned the entrance of sin into the human family, though Adam freely chose Eve over God without any coercion at all. Adam alone is responsible for his sin and the consequences. God made him perfect, warned him, and gave him only one commandment to keep. God had planned the entrance of sin for the ultimate display of both his wrath and mercy ~or else, he would not have created all things knowing what would come to pass.

Depraved children of Adam, with hearts in all-out rebellion against God and morality, commit atrocities daily. You hear and read about them. They, nor their atrocities, surprise or confuse the LORD. He made them as surely as any creature. He restrains their wickedness, so all they can do is what He will use for Himself (Psalms 76:10). They never think about God at all (Psalms 10:4); they only want to satisfy themselves (James 1:13-16).

The blessed and holy God does not make men sin, but He does control and use their sins for wise and righteous purposes. God is perfectly holy and good. Man chooses sin willfully against the light of nature and warnings from God and men. God never puts sinful lusts in men, for He does not need to. They are so full of lust and wickedness, all He needs to do is lift His restraining mercy, and any man will do anything. Believe it!

He controls and directs all wickedness in the universe to His own praise and glory. Even the devil must obtain permission to touch a man or pig (Job 1:12; 2:6; Matthew 8:31). He can keep a king from touching a woman (Genesis 20:6), and he can use the offspring of incest for His glory (Genesis 38:1-30). He used the envy of Joseph’s brothers to get him to Egypt (Genesis 45; 50:20), and He used Roman cruelty to crucify His Son on a tree (John 18:30,31).

When God needs to reveal His wrath and power against sin, He looses men to rush greedily after their own lusts, and then He punishes them for it. About 6000 years after creation, He drowned the earth with a flood for their sins. He let Satan have David to number Israel, and He killed 70,000 men in punishment for their sins (2nd Samuel 24). God controls and directs the sins of men and their punishment to magnify Himself.

King Sennacherib wanted to expand the Assyrian Empire and conquer neighboring nations; God used him to chasten the rebellious Israelites, and then He destroyed him for his arrogant presumption about doing it (Isaiah 10:5-19). God used Jewish hatred for Jesus to bruise His only begotten Son for the sins of His elect, and then He miserably destroyed them by the Romans just 40 years later for that horrible crime. It was their wicked hands that crucified Him, but it was all according to His eternal purpose (Acts 2:23 4:27,28).

Here is the wisdom of God’s saints. They are never alarmed or surprised by wicked men. They know the LORD made Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, and Idi Amin for Himself. He used their evil to accomplish holy and wise ends, and then He did, and will yet, punish them for their wickedness. If God used World War II to crush Germany for the blasphemous higher criticism coming out of that country, give Him glory. If He crushed Japan for their blasphemous worship of Hirohito, give Him glory.

You cannot know the secrets things of God’s eternal counsel, unless and until He reveals them (Romans 11:34,35). History reveals some secret things (2nd Samuel 12:22,23), and so do His prophets, which recorded them for you in Scripture (Daniel 2; Amos 3:7). Most of His secret purposes are far outside your ability to know or understand. But He has revealed many things for you to do, and these are for your children and you (Deuteronomy 29:29 ).

A great Day of Evil is coming, the Day of Judgment, in which all angels and men shall be judged. The wicked were created for this day, as the proverb declares. The “evil” is the misery and pain He will pour on them. He has eternally purposed to display His mercy on the elect and His wrath on the reprobates (Jude 1:4).

“Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?” (Romans 9:21-24).

Do not even think of questioning Him! It took Nebuchadnezzar seven years to learn He is above questioning (Daniel 4:35). Paul, blasting those who might question God’s absolute sovereignty, wrote, “Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?” (Romans 9:20). You should not even complain or question, if He made you without hands (Is 45:9). Rational men do not accuse their parents of error, much less should you accuse God (Isaiah 45:10 ).

What should we do? “Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil” (Eccl 12). Hear Solomon’s father, “Stand in awe, and sin not: commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still. Selah” (Psalms 4:4). And, “Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth” (Psalms 46:10).

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

That is your religion Red, adopted from this world's religious system. Adam sinned. Was he also then in bondage to sin and the devil? Or did Adam, of his own free will, given him by God, choose to sin? Who convinced you that because of Adams free will choice,, you have no choice, but to live in Sin. It's a lie promoted by the wicked and deceitful hearts of other men who have chosen of their free will, to reject God. You don't have to listen to them Red. You "choose", of your own free will, to listen to them. And God, as promised, has given you over to the lusts of your own heart.

I'll address this tomorrow the Lord willing.