Satan and his Lies

[jeremiah1five]

I pull out this book "Perplexing Scriptures Explained"

By, Ángel Manuel Rodríguez who is part-time associate director of the Biblical Research Institute, having retired from leading that organization. Previously he was president of Antillian College and the academic vice president of Southwestern Adventist University. He earned his ThD in biblical theology from Andrews University. His special research interests include Old Testament, Sanctuary and Atonement, and Old Testament Theology. He has written several books, and authors a monthly column in Adventist World.

John the Baptist was also compared to:

1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,
2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness. Luke 3:1–2.

One Caesar, one governor, three tetrarchs, and two high priests, all men of accomplishment, or letters and credentials, but Luke says the Word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.

Credentials mean nothing to one who bears the Word of God. It is a matter of authority, and to whom God has given authority to bear His Word.

 

[jeremiah1five]

@jeremiah1five

Matthew 4 and Jesus' three temptations are the sum of all temptations according to the scriptures.

1st John 2:15​

“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.”

These three avenues were all three use on Christ by the devil in Matthew 4, so in essence he was tempted in all points as we are.

Enough said to you on this subject, neither you or @ Studyman have taken scriptures given by me and prove them wrong, by using the the very ones I used, to give your understanding on them, and proving to me where I'm wrong, by refuting the emphasis I put on them, and until you both do that, then you really are doing nothing more than promoting your own doctrines.

You quote the Scripture in James, but you don't believe it. You add a fallen angel as the one who tempts Jesus.
If a fallen angel is the one who tempts Jesus Christ, then Jesus Christ was NOT tempted "in all points as we" and cannot be Mediator nor Intercessor for He was not tempted as we are. It is impossible to add a fallen angel into the narrative when Peter states the angels that sinned are all locked up and awaiting judgment.

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2 Peter 2:4.

By adding to one passage of Scripture you destroy another.

Good work.

I don't add to Scripture as you do. James states under the anointing that temptation comes from within:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. James 1:13–14.

Jesus' temptation was also "of his own lust" as stated by James. There are NOT two ways of being tempted, only one.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

They are a distraction you use to move away from the Adam and Eve story, and the message God intended us to garner from it. I have learned over the years that if I let you, you will just keep moving the bar, misdirecting the discussion.

So, all the scriptures I provided, many of which, were given to answer your post. were done as a distraction, and nothing more than moving the bar? You are a very dishonest person. Let us test you words:

Matthew 4:5​

“Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone."

Are you saying that Jesus had thoughts within his heart of whether or not he was the Son of God? That's impossible, for that would have been a sin, a weakness on his part, which that never happened, no not for one second! It was the devil himself that was tempting him to tempt God!

Matthew 4:8​

“Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.”

Now, THINK....can a man's heart which some say is the devil, actually has the power to give us anything? This is the prince of this world offering Jesus greatness if he only would fall down and worship him, which many have done, actually all are doing even now, who have given their souls over to him just to enjoy the things Mystery Babylon is offering them to serve its purposes.

These temptation did not come from within Jesus, those would have been a sin to even desire such things, desire is conceiving, all it has to do is make a way to fulfill those wicked lust. Jesus never had a lustful sinful thought, never. The only lust that drove him was teh will God, in thoughts, words and deeds.

James 1:14​

“But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”

So, you deny that which is clearly written in Genesis 3:

Genesis 3:1​

“Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?”

Studyman, you have a major problem brewing, let's keep going.

Genesis 3:4​

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:”

So, you reject a talking serpent going upright before the fall? You reject one of the foundational truths of the scriptures when you reject Genesis three, but there more....

Genesis 3:14​

“And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:”

Now, let us see what Paul said concerning Genesis three.

2nd Corinthians 11:3​

“But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.”

2 Corinthians 11:14​

“And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.”

The old serpent the devil, who made use of a serpent, the most subtle creature of all the beasts of the field, and seduced Eve from her obedience to God, to transgress his command, by eating the forbidden fruit. This temptation came from outside of her, since God created Adam and Eve free of indwelling sin, of any sinful lust. You are going against plain scriptures and even worse, denying evil spirits, even Satan himself. Tony Warren and his group do the same, so obviously you were affected by them more than you think!

Jesus flesh was FREE of indwelling sin, unlike us...he was tempted by the Devil himself, not from anything within him!

There is much more, but enough to show you how dishonest you are, by saying what I said were distractions and me moving the bar, when I did nothing but use scriptures that for most part you never addresses. I use some for Jeremiah that you could have addressed but did not.

I have never said that I our flesh is not an enemy of God; actually, I believe that more than you do, let me give you a prime example, not that you will hear, for your mind is closed to every voice other than your voice, even to the voice of the prophets, apostles of God, from the scriptures.

How many times have you and others heard me say, that our flesh is at enmity against God, from our birth, not just an enemy, which is bad enough, but is at war against, truth, righteousness and God! That's why I have said hundred's of time, that the new birth must occur before we can see, hear, believe, and repent, which you have many times over mock as though that is not so, since it is you, sir, which believes nd teach our flesh/hearts by nature can do spiritual acts pleasing to God without God first showing mercy to the sinner who is dead in trespasses and sins!. So do not accuse me of what you are guilty of doing when it serve your other false teaching about the new birth, That's very hypocritical on your part, which is to be expected when folks hold to false doctrines, while falsely accusing others of doing so.

You don't believe it more than I do, at least not based on your sermons.

Okay, let me ask you these few questions and see if you believe the flesh is at enmity against God, and you believe this more than I do. I know that you do not. You are either confused, or you talk out of both sides of your mouth, we shall see. Simply test for you.

So, do you believe that you, or any man as far as that goes, have a free will now, after the fall of Adam and Eve? Do you believe you have the power to believe obey God without being first born of God? Do you beleive you are totally depraved from birth without any desire or power/strength to do God's commandments? Do you believe just as Paul said, yes or no? And please explain you answer.

Romans 8:7​

“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”

 

[Red Baker]

@jeremiah1five

You quote the Scripture in James, but you don't believe it. You add a fallen angel as the one who tempts Jesus.
If a fallen angel is the one who tempts Jesus Christ, then Jesus Christ was NOT tempted "in all points as we" and cannot be Mediator nor Intercessor for He was not tempted as we are. It is impossible to add a fallen angel into the narrative when Peter states the angels that sinned are all locked up and awaiting judgment.

Let's stop this back and forth, take the scriptures I used from 1st John 2:15,16 and prove that it does not fit with Jesus' temptation, if you refuse to do this, then I'm finished talking to you. You and @Studyman are good in not answering scriptures put before you two. He's by far worse than you.

You said: "It is impossible to add a fallen angel into the narrative when Peter states the angels that sinned are all locked up and awaiting judgment."

I have addressed this point many times in the last month or so, even in this thread. #129

 

[jeremiah1five]

@jeremiah1five

Let's stop this back and forth, take the scriptures I used from 1st John 2:15,16 and prove that it does not fit with Jesus' temptation, if you refuse to do this, then I'm finished talking to you. You and @Studyman are good in not answering scriptures put before you two. He's by far worse than you.

I don't answer irrelevant Scripture. If it doesn't apply then it doesn't apply.

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 1 John 2:15–16.

1 John 2:15-16 doesn't apply because the love of the Father to the Son, and the love of the Son to the Father overrides these "longings" as Jesus' temptation bears this out. What happened in Jesus' temptations and how He overcame His temptations was His love for the Father and His submission of His flesh to the Spirit.

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, John 17:2.

This includes His own flesh as well, and He proved that power because of the love between them.

for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. John 17:24.

Our Lord was not tempted by the sinful lusts of pride, avarice, ambition, envy, malice, hatred, anger, jealousy, gluttony, drunkenness, by evil desire, or by concupiscence of any kind. The assaults upon Christ were real and powerful through the channel of His human nature, but they had no answering chord in Him to strike. He said, "the prince of this world cometh , and hath nothing in me" (John 14:30.)

You said: "It is impossible to add a fallen angel into the narrative when Peter states the angels that sinned are all locked up and awaiting judgment."

I have addressed this point many times in the last month or so, even in this thread. #129

I stand upon Peter's word in 2 Peter 2:4.
The only thing to answer now is when this happened.
In my studies the time this occurred was before God created man.
There were no fallen angels in the Garden involved in Adam's and Eve's temptation either for again temptation comes from within. The Scripture states the serpent was a beast of the field meaning it was an animal God created along with the cattle and creeping thing. What throws many off is the mention of old serpent in Revelation said in association to the devil and Satan. There is no such thing as "the devil made me do it." Our sin nature, even after born-again is still an adversary to God. And the only way for the Holy Spirit of Promise to dwell within is the justification and sanctification of our flesh (and soul), with our bodies coming later when Christ returns, for He is returning and He brings something with Him and that is the completion of our salvation once we are body-changed in the twinkle twinkle of an eye.

 

[Obadiah]

Credentials mean nothing to one who bears the Word of God. It is a matter of authority, and to whom God has given authority to bear His Word.

You can have both.

 

[civic]

You can have both.

and there is no authority without having a spiritual gift/gifts being used in the local body to build up one another. one must be under the church leadership and affirmed by them to have any authority speaking on Gods behalf to others. and you are right you can have both.

 

[civic]

Denying the existence of the devil and his angels is on par with the atheist that denies the existence of God and His angels.

And if one denies the existence of demons to be consistent they must also deny the existence of angels.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

Choosing instead, to promote an ancient Catholic philosophy that places the blame of Eves sin, on a talking snake. Clearly God didn't hold the same philosophy, according to what is actually written.

It is not an ancient Catholic doctrine, as you want folks to believe. You continue to mock that a snake did talk before the fall of man? Actually it could do so now, if God willed it. I assume you do not believe that Balaam's *** talked with a man's voice?

2nd Peter 2:16​

“But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb *** speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.”

You said: "Clearly God didn't hold the same philosophy, according to what is actually written."
God's word said otherwise:

2nd Corinthians 11:3​

“But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.”

The devil, the old serpent, made use of the most subtle creature that God created to speak to Eve, speaking through the serpent.

What are you going to say concerning the curse put upon the serpent by God?

Genesis 3:14​

“And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:”

They did not believe that a snake talked to Eve, or an *** to Balaam!

This curse put upon the serpent does not fit the human mind/heart of man, as you attempt to try to make it to be, not even close. Try to make this a parable is cunning since one can make it to be whatever they desire to fit their lying doctrine.

We agree that God created Adam and Eve with free will and the ability to "Act" accordingly, Yes? If you don't believe this, please let me know.

I believe God created them after His image, with true holiness, wisdom, knowledge, and understanding, not with a heart and mind that was wicked. After God created them it is written:

Genesis 1:31​

“And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”

After God created everything including angels, he left them to their own selves without securing their state in which he created them in, with an exception of the elect angels, them he secured their first estate in which he created them for. Many of the angels left their first estate, and the devil the prince among them, caused Adam and Eve to disobey God, through his subtilty, deceiving Eve first, and she her husband.

Denying the existence of the devil and his angels is on par with the atheist that denies the existence of God and His angels.

And if one denies the existence of demons to be consistent they must also deny the existence of angels.

Actually brother, it is nothing but Sadduceeism all over again....They were known for their rejection of the resurrection of the dead, the existence of angels, and spirits ~ does this sounds like any one you know? They were often in conflict Jesus, the apostles, other Jewish sect.

Acts 23:8​

“For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.”

Of all of the religious sects in Israel in that day, they are the only ones that we never read where one was ever converted to the true faith, not one.

 

[mikesw]

Projecting just like a NT Pharisee with their religiosity

In your world there is no Satan so who are you trying to fool ?

That person is always a bit off on theology but hard to pinpoint what central doctrine he follows. If someone is holding to a unique theology there is necessity to be able to convince people of it -- or make that attempt.

It is not an ancient Catholic doctrine, as you want folks to believe. You continue to mock that a snake did talk before the fall of man? Actually it could do so now, if God willed it. I assume you do not believe that Balaam's *** talked with a man's voice?

2nd Peter 2:16​

“But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb *** speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.”

You said: "Clearly God didn't hold the same philosophy, according to what is actually written."
God's word said otherwise:

2nd Corinthians 11:3​

“But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.”

The devil, the old serpent, made use of the most subtle creature that God created to speak to Eve, speaking through the serpent.

What are you going to say concerning the curse put upon the serpent by God?

Interestingly, this focus on opposing "Catholic" doctrine appears often among the people presenting unusual views. The rejection of Catholic doctrine appears vague but also extensive. In each of the examples of people using here, that rejection seem to represent their variance from even the most solid doctrines.

 

[jeremiah1five]

You can have both.

I agree. Although you can count these priest/prophets' class on one hand.

Most prophets of God to Israel came out of the "wilderness" or places not associated with the 'ruling' class.

Samuel: He is a prominent example. Samuel was raised by Eli, the high priest, and served in the Tabernacle from a young age. He is recognized as both a prophet (receiving direct messages from God from a young age) and a judge, and he also anointed the first two kings of Israel, Saul and David. His life clearly combined priestly service with prophetic ministry.

Jeremiah: He came from a priestly family in Anathoth, indicating a background connected to the Levitical priesthood. While his main role was prophetic, his lineage placed him within the priestly class.

Ezekiel: He was explicitly identified as a priest (son of Buzi) who was among the exiles in Babylon. His prophecies often included detailed visions and regulations concerning the Temple, reflecting his priestly background and concern for its proper functioning and future restoration.

Asaph and other Tabernacle/Temple Musicians: 1 Chronicles 25:1-7 lists musicians whom King David commissioned to perform before the Tabernacle and identifies them as prophets. This suggests that some individuals involved in the musical service of the sanctuary also functioned prophetically.

While the roles were distinct, these examples show that some individuals were chosen by God to be prophets despite or in addition to their priestly lineage or service in the Tabernacle/Temple. The prophet's primary function was always to speak God's word, which might involve critiquing the very religious institutions and practices if they were not in alignment with God's will.

The priestly individuals were hereditary which were prone to corruption in which case God would send someone from outside the religious organization.

Also, I don't deny the existence of angels - fallen or otherwise, I am merely providing the Scripture as written.
The Lord told us through Isaiah "Let us reason together..." and so it is possible to reason these things out but only if one is honest with Scripture and doesn't add to God's Word things that are just not 'there.'

 

[Studyman]

@Studyman

So, all the scriptures I provided, many of which, were given to answer your post. were done as a distraction, and nothing more than moving the bar?

The flesh of man only cares about itself, preserving itself, justifying itself. Every discussion with you is about you. How holy you are. How "enlightened" you are. Justifying your every word. You use "some" of God's Word, just like the flesh of Eve used "some" of God's Word, to justify the lusts of your own flesh.

I know because I am guilty of the same. When Scriptures expose an evil within my flesh, whether it's through study, or through an A$$ as one story shows, my flesh resist's being corrected. It will not be humbled. So my flesh exacts revenge, strikes back, justifies itself, makes excuses because it cannot be corrected, it cannot be wrong, it cannot be humbled. My flesh does the same thing Eve's flesh did, when sin was exposed in it. She blamed God. "I sinned "because" of the talking snake that "you placed in the garden". Adam's Flesh blamed God, "I sinned "because" of the woman "you" gave me". You preach that you sin "because" of "the sin nature God gave you". And you further the preaching that the world sins "because" of the devil "God created".

The reason I replied to this thread in the first place, is because I have come to understand by study of what is actually written, that this isn't the "way of the Lord" at all. This isn't the TRUTH God intended me to garner from the Holy scriptures HE had written "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works".
When we walk in the flesh, we aren't interested in what God actually teaches, we are only interested in satisfying the lusts of our flesh. If you can't "see" this in the story about the very first example of a human being drawn away by the lusts of their own free will, then that blindness is beyond my paygrade.

The reason for this reply. The sole purpose of your words in this reply, is to preserve, justify and exalt your own flesh. Adam and Eve, when the lusts of their own flesh was exposed, did the exact same thing. It wasn't the fruit from without that defiled them, nor the words of a talking snake. It was choosing the lust of their flesh from within, that were were created with, and rejecting the Word of God, that defiled them. They didn't have to, they choose to of their own free will. They were not born with a sin nature, just as you are not born with a sin nature.

Your flesh doesn't want to engage in a discussion that will expose it as the deceiver, so you deflect as you are doing now, to preserve it. Just as I have.

Okay, let me ask you these few questions and see if you believe the flesh is at enmity against God,
and you believe this more than I do. I know that you do not. You are either confused, or you talk out of both sides of your mouth, we shall see. Simply test for you.

See! Everything is about you. You are better than me and anyone who would question even one of your words. You know more than me and anyone who would question even one of your statements. You are superior to me and everyone who would question even one of your philosophies. You are consumed with this. Your flesh demands justice for anything that would dare question it or challenge it. You must "put down" every word that would challenge even ONE of your declarations.

What spirit is this? Where does this come from? From God? A talking snake? No Red. Of your own free will, you "Choose" to exalt yourself every time you are even questioned. No doubt, you will deny this as well. We are both guilty of this. You don't have to. I don't have to. But we do? WHY is this?

You say it's because God created you with a sin nature that Eve wasn't created with. And when I question this popular philosophy, by wanting to examine the first ever example of a human being carried away of it's own fleshy lust, you deceitfully deflect. Then I get frustrated and strike back with my mouth. Flesh against flesh, evil against evil. It's stupid, wicked, and unfruitful. I want to know why, not by your religious opinions, or what the religions of this world teaches, but what Gods Word teaches.

So what makes us do this? Is it God's Fault, as this world's religious system implies? Whether its a "Sin Nature" they preach "God gave us", or a talking snake that crawls into our mind? Or did we, of our own free will, choose the works of the flesh we both know God teaches against, over the works of the Spirit which we can both recite "from our own mouths", just as Eve recited the very Law God gave her, that if she had chosen, with her God given Free will, to obey, would have saved her from falling?

How is this not the intended message from God to His People?

 

[Studyman]

So, do you believe that you, or any man as far as that goes, have a free will now, after the fall of Adam and Eve?

According to what is actually written in scriptures, Adam and Eve were given Laws by God, in His Love and Mercy, to place boundaries and limits on their own free will, to keep their own flesh from destroying them. Just as God placed limits on His Own Free will, which if not fettered, would destroy everything, just as all beings with free will, must have limits. This is undeniable Truth. God is a Just God, and Merciful. HE "Chooses" these things. No one "makes" God be just and Merciful.

All of these Truths are shields and swords God gives to me, to discard, mortify, resist to pulls of a flesh I fed for years.

According to what is actually written, Adam and Eve were created with the ability to "Choose" to have faith in, and be thankful for, Gods instruction, as they were created the perfect free will mortal human.

And also, they were created with the ability to "choose" of their free will, to reject Gods instruction, and have faith instead in their own flesh, as they were created the perfect free will mortal human. This is the reality of Free will.

They had these abilities "before" God placed them in a garden with a talking snake. God gave them a Law "before" God placed them in the garden with a talking snake. These are undeniable Biblical Truths.

I too, was born the perfect free will mortal human, after the image of God, no different than Adam. I am given boundaries by my parents God placed over me, in their love and mercy for me, to save me from my own free will choices, until I learn how to wield it. Without boundaries, all humans would destroy themselves "by their own free will choices".

This is why Law exists in every society. This is why Christ gave Laws to His People, as HE Himself tells us, if we could only believe him.

Deut. 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.

Do you believe you have the power to believe obey God without being first born of God?

Adam and Eve were given the power to choose to obey and believe God. How can a man who doesn't believe God, "be born of God?"

Will you also answer my questions? Or do you place burdens on others that you will not lift with even one of your fingers?

Do you beleive you are totally depraved from birth without any desire or power/strength to do God's commandments? Do you believe just as Paul said, yes or no?

I believe what Paul teaches, I don't believe what you preach. They are two completely different gospels.

And please explain you answer.

I am happy to do just that.

Romans 8:7​

“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then "they that are in" the flesh cannot please God.”

I have found that to understand the message of someone, anyone, it is best to consider all of the message, not just a sentence here or a sentence there. Eve encountered the exact same thing Red, that you promote to me. Here, lets look at what Paul really teaches in Rom. 7&8, and see if "total depravity" is wrought in God or the imagination of the heart of man that you have adopted.

Rom. 7: 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then "with the mind" I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom. 8:1 There is therefore now (Because Paul; serves the Law of God from the heart/mind) no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk "not after the flesh", but after the Spirit.

That is the exact same free will choice Adam and Eve had. Whose words are we to choose to "live by"? Doesn't the Christ tell Adam, Eve, you and I the answer to this question? You don't preach anything that even resembles what Paul is teaching here.

Lets continue.

2 For the law "of the Spirit of life" (That is) in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the "law of sin and death".

So isn't Paul saying that the choice of "Serving the Law of God", that Christ Jesus served, "with his mind", causes him to be free, from Law of sin, death.

How is that different from Adam and Eve? Had Eve "Served the Law of God" in her mind, she would have been free from the Law of Sin/death. Didn't she have a free will choice to do just that?

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, the wages of which was death. If she never ate the fruit again for the rest of her life, is she then free of the penalty? Can this Law, or any Law take away her sin? No, only by Mercy and Grace, the barriers God Chose, of HIS OWN Free will, to limit His Own free Will, can the death "EVE Chose" be annulled. And HE chooses to do this for the repentant.

Do you think Eve ever ate of that tree again? I would say no. She Chose to adopt God's Law, walking in the flesh, serving the Law of God in her mind, not walking in the Flesh, serving the imaginations of here own heart.

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who (Choose to) walk "not" after the flesh, (as she did in times past) but (instead, choose to walk) after the Spirit.

5 For they that are "after the flesh" (serve the Flesh) do mind the things of the flesh (Fleshy lust, works of the flesh) but they that are after the Spirit (Serve the Law of God with their minds) the things of the Spirit. (God's Laws)

6 For to (Choose to) be carnally minded (Reject God's Laws)is death; (Like Eve chose) but to (Choose to) be spiritually minded (Serve God's Laws) (like Jesus did) is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind (Unfettered free will) is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye (Who choose to serve the Law of God with your mind) are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, "if so be" that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So then if we refuse the Spirit of LIFE that was in Christ Jesus, if a man refuses to "Serve the Law of God with his mind", like Eve did, that we are not walking in the Spirit.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body (Flesh) is dead (Mortified, no longer rules over your thoughts and deeds, as it did with Eve) because of (our own free will) sin; but the Spirit is life (That is in Jesus) because of (The free Will choosing of) righteousness.

Total depravity is no different than Eve blaming God for her sins, or Adam blaming God for his sins. God Himself said you are going to be judged by "Your Works". Eve was Judged by "Her works", Adam was judged by His Works". Paul taught the opposite of "total depravity". It is a wicked and deceitful doctrine and is crated by fleshy men, to justify fleshy works.

 

[Studyman]

@Studyman

It is not an ancient Catholic doctrine, as you want folks to believe. You continue to mock that a snake did talk before the fall of man? Actually it could do so now, if God willed it. I assume you do not believe that Balaam's *** talked with a man's voice?

Ya, Ya, ya, and you found a piece of Jesus' Flesh and ate it, and a pint of His actual blood and drank it.

Sigh!

You can have your boogie man Red, and your exorcisms, and your holy water, and "total Depravity". Men can and will no doubt, continue blame God for their own free will choice to reject God's Judgments and Laws, just like Adam, just like Eve. And they will continue to justify their every word and every deed, as it is written.

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

And in the judgment these "many" will see what they never considered, even though God warned them. But they will still be in their perpetual self justification mode, and they will say in their defense, "Wait a minute Jesus, don't you know who we are? "We are "Many" and we preached in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and created massive religious businesses, schools and empires all in your name".

And then Jesus will declare to them, I don't even know you, you who by your own free will, rejected my counsel over the lusts of your own flesh.

I'm done here Red. I'm sure you will want the last word.

 

[Obadiah]

An unforgiving nature is fertile ground for Satan to control and take over, and use to his advantage. The progress from a lack of forgiveness to uncontrollable rage and violence is common and well known. These are all areas that Satanic forces easily dominate and the person is soon under the influence and control of Satan and his demons.

To choose not to forgive is to choose to allow someone other than the Lord to control our life. It is to choose to be a victim when Christ wants to set us free. It is also to give ground to the enemy so he can set up a guerrilla base from which to operate in our lives.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

I'm done here Red. I'm sure you will want the last word.

After all, you have sent me a few post, so, yes I do have more to say, not to get the last word, (you are welcome to continue) but to answer some of your false accusations and to clear up some of your misuse of scriptures.

Tomorrow, I'm resting to rest of the afternoon. I shall return, the Lord willing.

Ever heard of the Sadducees Studyman? You might want to do a genealogy check to find some of your relatives.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

Ya, Ya, ya, and you found a piece of Jesus' Flesh and ate it, and a pint of His actual blood and drank it.

I have indeed, too bad you mocked this truth, and have never live only by Christ and his gospel, or, you would not be mocking it, as you are doing.

John 6:54-58​

“Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.”

You can have your boogie man Red, and your exorcisms, and your holy water, and "total Depravity".

I am sure the Sadducees mock Jesus and his apostles as they cast our devils, with the same words, as you are doing. I personally I have never cast out devils, but have heard testimonies of others that have had them cast out, and heard them talking as they were being cast out.

Luke 9:38-42~"And, behold, a man of the company cried out, saying, Master, I beseech thee, look upon my son: for he is mine only child. And, lo, a spirit taketh him, and he suddenly crieth out; and it teareth him that he foameth again, and bruising him hardly departeth from him. And I besought thy disciples to cast him out; and they could not. And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither. And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father."

Do you reject this as being true? Do not say no, and then say nothing of these scriptures. How could you even be so bold as to say this is speaking of the evil deeds in this child mind being a unclean spirit that labor to destroy the child.

Why are you mocking total depravity, I thought you said you believe this more than I do, which of course, I knew that you did not. Studyman, you can not have it both ways.

You preach that you sin "because" of "the sin nature God gave you". And you further the preaching that the world sins "because" of the devil "God created".

Do not put words into my mouth that I do utter. I have never blame my sins on my sinful nature that I received from Adam, not God! I have never once have blame the devil for one sin that I have committed, not once. So, keep your false accusations to yourself.

When we walk in the flesh, we aren't interested in what God actually teaches, we are only interested in satisfying the lusts of our flesh.

Agreed, yet this is not what we are discussing ~you are trying to say that the devil, unclean spirits are works of the flesh, not actual spirits. This is what we are refuting!

The flesh of man only cares about itself, preserving itself, justifying itself. Every discussion with you is about you. How holy you are. How "enlightened" you are. Justifying your every word. You use "some" of God's Word, just like the flesh of Eve used "some" of God's Word, to justify the lusts of your own flesh.

Wrong, This is not about me, I'm refuting your corrupt teachings concerning Satan/evil spirit/fallen angels which you reject as non existence entity, yet the scriptures said otherwise very clearly. And truly we have hardly scratch the surface of this doctrine of angels/spirit/ etc. Yet, you are ready to stop, but we refuse to do, until we are finish, with, or without you. Young believers need to know the truth on this doctrine, to protect themselves from wolves coming in sheep clothing's like you.

Your flesh doesn't want to engage in a discussion that will expose it as the deceiver, so you deflect as you are doing now, to preserve it.

Not sure what you mean..."so you deflect as you are doing now, to preserve it"....Deflect? I think you are confusing me with yourself!

See! Everything is about you. You are better than me and anyone who would question even one of your words. You know more than me and anyone who would question even one of your statements. You are superior to me and everyone who would question even one of your philosophies. You are consumed with this. Your flesh demands justice for anything that would dare question it or challenge it. You must "put down" every word that would challenge even ONE of your declarations.

What spirit is this? Where does this come from? From God? A talking snake? No Red. Of your own free will, you "Choose" to exalt yourself every time you are even questioned. No doubt, you will deny this as well. We are both guilty of this. You don't have to. I don't have to. But we do? WHY is this?

Studyman, I labor to stand for God's truth only, and I'm here for no other reason. I think you are unfairly judging me, yet, I'll leave that in God's hand. Just because I for one on this forum (there are others) call you out with your bizarre and strange teaching, you take that personally to mean that it is all about me, when nothing can be farther from the truth.

I'll come back and address the rest later...

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

Do you believe you have the power to believe obey God without being first born of God?

Here is a question I asked you, and here's your answer:

Adam and Eve were given the power to choose to obey and believe God. How can a man who doesn't believe God, "be born of God?"

Will you also answer my questions? Or do you place burdens on others that you will not lift with even one of your fingers?

It is almost impossible to get biblical answers from you since you have created your own doctrines. "How can a man who doesn't believe God, "be born of God?"

You never answer my question, but came back with some bizarre statement. I never asked you if a man does not believe God, can it be said that his is born of God. I will answer it for you ~ NO, "no man" has the power to believe God on his own power without first being born of God. A very simple question, a very simple answer.

You asked: "Will you also answer my questions? Or do you place burdens on others that you will not lift with even one of your fingers?" I pray to God that I have never done so, and will never to so. I really put very little burden on my own family, but give them liberty to serve God from their hearts, without a bunch of do's and dont's.

Red Baker said:
Do you beleive you are totally depraved from birth without any desire or power/strength to do God's commandments? Do you believe just as Paul said, yes or no?

You came back with this:

I believe what Paul teaches, I don't believe what you preach. They are two completely different gospels.

So, actually, I believe more about the heart of man than you do by nature, you actually talk out of both sides of your mouth when it best suites what you are trying to say. I just do not believe that our hearts/mind are Satan/evil spirits as you do. They are separate entities all together, While I do agree, that our hearts by nature are much like Satan's image, since Adam took on his wicked nature when he sinned, and has passed that down to his posterity.

Genesis 5:3​

“And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:”

That is, his fallen nature, God's image was stolen form Adam by his disobedience.

Studyman, you believe nothing like Paul, stop deceiving yourself.

Red Baker said: Romans 8:7 “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then "they that are in" the flesh cannot please God.”

I have found that to understand the message of someone, anyone, it is best to consider all of the message, not just a sentence here or a sentence there. Eve encountered the exact same thing Red, that you promote to me. Here, lets look at what Paul really teaches in Rom. 7&8, and see if "total depravity" is wrought in God or the imagination of the heart of man that you have adopted.

Rom. 7: 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then "with the mind" I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom. 8:1 There is therefore now (Because Paul; serves the Law of God from the heart/mind) no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk "not after the flesh", but after the Spirit.

That is the exact same free will choice Adam and Eve had. Whose words are we to choose to "live by"? Doesn't the Christ tell Adam, Eve, you and I the answer to this question? You don't preach anything that even resembles what Paul is teaching here.

Lets continue.

2 For the law "of the Spirit of life" (That is) in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the "law of sin and death".

So isn't Paul saying that the choice of "Serving the Law of God", that Christ Jesus served, "with his mind", causes him to be free, from Law of sin, death.

How is that different from Adam and Eve? Had Eve "Served the Law of God" in her mind, she would have been free from the Law of Sin/death. Didn't she have a free will choice to do just that?

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, the wages of which was death. If she never ate the fruit again for the rest of her life, is she then free of the penalty? Can this Law, or any Law take away her sin? No, only by Mercy and Grace, the barriers God Chose, of HIS OWN Free will, to limit His Own free Will, can the death "EVE Chose" be annulled. And HE chooses to do this for the repentant.

Do you think Eve ever ate of that tree again? I would say no. She Chose to adopt God's Law, walking in the flesh, serving the Law of God in her mind, not walking in the Flesh, serving the imaginations of here own heart.

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who (Choose to) walk "not" after the flesh, (as she did in times past) but (instead, choose to walk) after the Spirit.

5 For they that are "after the flesh" (serve the Flesh) do mind the things of the flesh (Fleshy lust, works of the flesh) but they that are after the Spirit (Serve the Law of God with their minds) the things of the Spirit. (God's Laws)

6 For to (Choose to) be carnally minded (Reject God's Laws)is death; (Like Eve chose) but to (Choose to) be spiritually minded (Serve God's Laws) (like Jesus did) is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind (Unfettered free will) is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye (Who choose to serve the Law of God with your mind) are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, "if so be" that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So then if we refuse the Spirit of LIFE that was in Christ Jesus, if a man refuses to "Serve the Law of God with his mind", like Eve did, that we are not walking in the Spirit.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body (Flesh) is dead (Mortified, no longer rules over your thoughts and deeds, as it did with Eve) because of (our own free will) sin; but the Spirit is life (That is in Jesus) because of (The free Will choosing of) righteousness.

Total depravity is no different than Eve blaming God for her sins, or Adam blaming God for his sins. God Himself said you are going to be judged by "Your Works". Eve was Judged by "Her works", Adam was judged by His Works". Paul taught the opposite of "total depravity". It is a wicked and deceitful doctrine and is crated by fleshy men, to justify fleshy works.

Wow, you said a lot, but made no sense as far as answering Romans 8:7~you actually never answer it, and truly you made very little Biblical sense in reference to Romans 8: 1-10. Maybe the best I can described your words is that you rambled.

You said: "I have found that to understand the message of someone, anyone, it is best to consider all of the message, not just a sentence here or a sentence there."

I'll come back and look at Romans 8:1-10, or so

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

I believe what Paul teaches, I don't believe what you preach. They are two completely different gospels

We shall see, if you believe what Paul taught. I agree that you and I have two completely different gospels.

Romans 8:1​

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

Therefore... This is an inference from the general strain of the doctrine which Paul had been teaching in the preceding part of Romans; especially it follows from what he had asserted, in the seventh chapter, with respect to believers dying with Christ, and consequently being dead (legally) to sin and to the law. And if dead through the body of Christ, then it follows....there is now no condemnation to them are in Christ Jesus. How is one in Christ, Paul tell us:

Ephesians 1:4​

“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”

By God's election of pure grace! Romans 11:5,6.

"now no condemnation"~now, since they have died with Christ, and thereby given complete satisfaction to the law, both in its penalty and precept, it is not possible that by it they can "ever" be condemned. And, to mark the completeness of this exemption, he says, there is now no condemnation to them; the reason of which he fully explains in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th verses, which we shall consider.

God has rendered us accepted in the Beloved. Being now in Christ, we are not under the curse of the law, because Christ was made a curse for the elect. He has borne it for us In the moment in which he utter these three words: : IT IS FINSIHED...his people entered into another covenant, in which there is nothing but grace and pardon. That there is now no condemnation to them that are in Him is according to our Lord’s declaration:

John 5:24​

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

Afterwards, in express terms, he denies that they can be either accused or condemned ~ which they might be, were there any ground for either, but there are none. All that was commendable in them, which was sin, has been condemned in their Surety, as is shown in the 3rd verse, which we shall consider.

"who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit"~Those who are in Christ Jesus, do not walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit, not as a condition to inherit eternal life, but as the true biblical evidence of those Christ died for, who have the Spirit of God in them, that is, in their new man, that enables them to live according to the word of God producing the fruits of the Spirit in their life.

Romans 8:2
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

later...

 

[civic]

According to what is actually written in scriptures, Adam and Eve were given Laws by God, in His Love and Mercy, to place boundaries and limits on their own free will, to keep their own flesh from destroying them. Just as God placed limits on His Own Free will, which if not fettered, would destroy everything, just as all beings with free will, must have limits. This is undeniable Truth. God is a Just God, and Merciful. HE "Chooses" these things. No one "makes" God be just and Merciful.

All of these Truths are shields and swords God gives to me, to discard, mortify, resist to pulls of a flesh I fed for years.

According to what is actually written, Adam and Eve were created with the ability to "Choose" to have faith in, and be thankful for, Gods instruction, as they were created the perfect free will mortal human.

And also, they were created with the ability to "choose" of their free will, to reject Gods instruction, and have faith instead in their own flesh, as they were created the perfect free will mortal human. This is the reality of Free will.

They had these abilities "before" God placed them in a garden with a talking snake. God gave them a Law "before" God placed them in the garden with a talking snake. These are undeniable Biblical Truths.

I too, was born the perfect free will mortal human, after the image of God, no different than Adam. I am given boundaries by my parents God placed over me, in their love and mercy for me, to save me from my own free will choices, until I learn how to wield it. Without boundaries, all humans would destroy themselves "by their own free will choices".

This is why Law exists in every society. This is why Christ gave Laws to His People, as HE Himself tells us, if we could only believe him.

Deut. 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.



Adam and Eve were given the power to choose to obey and believe God. How can a man who doesn't believe God, "be born of God?"

Will you also answer my questions? Or do you place burdens on others that you will not lift with even one of your fingers?



I believe what Paul teaches, I don't believe what you preach. They are two completely different gospels.



I am happy to do just that.


I have found that to understand the message of someone, anyone, it is best to consider all of the message, not just a sentence here or a sentence there. Eve encountered the exact same thing Red, that you promote to me. Here, lets look at what Paul really teaches in Rom. 7&8, and see if "total depravity" is wrought in God or the imagination of the heart of man that you have adopted.

Rom. 7: 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then "with the mind" I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom. 8:1 There is therefore now (Because Paul; serves the Law of God from the heart/mind) no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk "not after the flesh", but after the Spirit.

That is the exact same free will choice Adam and Eve had. Whose words are we to choose to "live by"? Doesn't the Christ tell Adam, Eve, you and I the answer to this question? You don't preach anything that even resembles what Paul is teaching here.

Lets continue.

2 For the law "of the Spirit of life" (That is) in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the "law of sin and death".

So isn't Paul saying that the choice of "Serving the Law of God", that Christ Jesus served, "with his mind", causes him to be free, from Law of sin, death.

How is that different from Adam and Eve? Had Eve "Served the Law of God" in her mind, she would have been free from the Law of Sin/death. Didn't she have a free will choice to do just that?

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, the wages of which was death. If she never ate the fruit again for the rest of her life, is she then free of the penalty? Can this Law, or any Law take away her sin? No, only by Mercy and Grace, the barriers God Chose, of HIS OWN Free will, to limit His Own free Will, can the death "EVE Chose" be annulled. And HE chooses to do this for the repentant.

Do you think Eve ever ate of that tree again? I would say no. She Chose to adopt God's Law, walking in the flesh, serving the Law of God in her mind, not walking in the Flesh, serving the imaginations of here own heart.

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who (Choose to) walk "not" after the flesh, (as she did in times past) but (instead, choose to walk) after the Spirit.

5 For they that are "after the flesh" (serve the Flesh) do mind the things of the flesh (Fleshy lust, works of the flesh) but they that are after the Spirit (Serve the Law of God with their minds) the things of the Spirit. (God's Laws)

6 For to (Choose to) be carnally minded (Reject God's Laws)is death; (Like Eve chose) but to (Choose to) be spiritually minded (Serve God's Laws) (like Jesus did) is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind (Unfettered free will) is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye (Who choose to serve the Law of God with your mind) are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, "if so be" that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So then if we refuse the Spirit of LIFE that was in Christ Jesus, if a man refuses to "Serve the Law of God with his mind", like Eve did, that we are not walking in the Spirit.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body (Flesh) is dead (Mortified, no longer rules over your thoughts and deeds, as it did with Eve) because of (our own free will) sin; but the Spirit is life (That is in Jesus) because of (The free Will choosing of) righteousness.

Total depravity is no different than Eve blaming God for her sins, or Adam blaming God for his sins. God Himself said you are going to be judged by "Your Works". Eve was Judged by "Her works", Adam was judged by His Works". Paul taught the opposite of "total depravity". It is a wicked and deceitful doctrine and is crated by fleshy men, to justify fleshy works.

you don't believe Paul at all since he taught the following. You make Paul out to be a liar below just you do with Jesus in Matthew 4:1-11.


Ephesians 6:11-13
Put on the full armor of God, so that you can make your stand against the devil’s schemes. / For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world’s darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. / Therefore take up the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you will be able to stand your ground, and having done everything, to stand.

And you make James a liar too


James 4:7
New International Version
Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

And you make Peter a liar

1 Peter 5:8-9
Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. / Resist him, standing firm in your faith and in the knowledge that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kinds of suffering.

conclusion: you make Gods word a lie, Jesus , the Prophets and Apostles liars. Us true believers affirm the testimony of the Prophets, Apostles and Jesus over your false teaching and religious beliefs that are contrary to the word of God.

Let God be true and every man found to be a liar !!!!

Gods word is True, the truth. Amen !

hope this helps !!!