Re. God's Purposes Regarding The Gentiles unto whom Paul was sent

[Complete]

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/whats-love-got-to-do-with-it.623/post-81642

@Complete: -reply #63:-

Hello @jeremiah1five,​

Please help me to understand you. For I do not want to do you an injustice. You give me the impression that you believe that only those in covenant relationship with God can be saved, and as only Israelites were ever covenanted with, then only they can receive salvation. That means that those of us who profess to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ from among the nations, Gentiles by birth, though we believe ourselves to be saved by God's grace, are mistaken.​

​

Surely this is not what you believe??​

@jeremiah1five - Reply#64 -

Gentile theology is 'mistaken' on many doctrines.​

I receive the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) as the Word of God that not only record 'beginnings' such as Genesis, but the beginnings of God's involvement with men on a more personal nature. When we get into the Abrahamic Covenant which is clearly stated this covenant is with Abram the Hebrew and later with his seed through his miracle son, Isaac, and also declared with Isaac's son, Jacob, whom God changed his name to Israel. Abraham's first birth was by a bondwoman, Hagar, whose name is Ishmael. You know this. Although Ishmael was seed of Abraham he was not in covenant with God as the promise went to Isaac born from Sarai, a freewoman and to whom the promise was made to her for a son way past her childbearing years. Isaac had two sons named Esau and Jacob. God declared covenant with Jacob. Jacob had twelve sons by four women. In Genesis God told Abraham his seed will come into bondage/slavery for four hundred years.​

​

From Exodus the Scripture records the history of Abraham's seed, a people that grew to over three million people when God delivered them from bondage. The rest of the Scripture records God's dealings with the children of Jacob/Israel from then onward. I won't itemize all the history, but the focus is upon the children of Israel and God's dealings with this people blessing and curses. The Mosaic Covenant comes into being in Exodus and the Abrahamic Covenant continues with the children of Jacob/Israel. Now, God is dealing with Abraham's seed. The Old Testament is a history of the children of Jacob/Israel as it weaves through the decades and centuries. Then we come to the Jeremiah prophecy of a New Covenant. Bear in mind that the New Covenant was built upon the Mosaic Covenant which was built upon the Abrahamic Covenant. And strictly with the Hebrews. I find no covenant in the OT between God and Gentiles (non-Hebrews.)​

A Deliverer-Redeemer was promised to Israel in accordance with covenant and prophecies. This Deliverer-Redeemer came to save "His people" as stated by prophecies and Gabriel who instructed the Name to give this Savior of the Hebrew people (Matt. 1:21.) He was born, grew up, was a Rabbi and taught the children of Israel which had divided into two kingdoms in its past and the whole salvation is locked up in the children of Israel in accordance with the Mosaic Covenant and all the sacrifices and representations of this covenant along with Tabernacle symbolism and shadows. This Jesus lived, died, and resurrected to save His people, the children of Israel who was the children of Abraham.​

​

Now, we have the four gospels which record the life of Israel's Deliverer-Redeemer Jesus the Christ and His effect upon the children of Israel.​

In Acts is recorded the first thirty years of this New Covenant era between the children/House of Israel and the acts and presence of their Promised Holy Spirit and His involvement with this people.​

I receive the epistles as discussion and 'hammering out' of the OT for understanding of this New Covenant Israel found themselves in which is basically meant as writings among Jewish Christians (Christ-followers) as they attempt to understand from the Hebrew Scripture of Law, Psalms, and Prophets this new era they found themselves in. Then, we come to Revelation which is prophecy to and for Israel of a future that will come to them and an end of mostly all things. These epistles are discussion and interpretation understanding of the New Covenant derived from the OT.​

While Jesus was alive in Israel He dealt with and blessed Samaritan who were at the most half-Jew and half-Gentiles due to intermarriage, rapes, concubinage, and even slavery of the northern ten tribes by Assyria, and later the same happening to the two southern tribes by Babylon. Now, some major things occurred in the Babylonian captivity among the southern kingdom tribes and a minority of scattered ten northern tribes without a Temple but still practicing their Mosaic traditions except this religion centered around their Feasts as best they could. From this captivity the term "Jews" came into existence, and this revealed the eleven tribes in Babylon merging into the one tribe: Judah and the general term of "Jews" that identified this loose union among the twelve since Judah's descendants were in majority. This era also produced two schools of theology: Pharisees and Sadducees. (I was hoping this wouldn't become a long response but there are major events and people and cultural changes that took place in their Babylonian captivity, important things.) Although the "Jews" in remnant returned to Israel, the majority remained in Gentile lands. And the remarriages continued between Jews and Gentiles that resulted in Samaritans (which Samaria was the capital of the northern kingdom.) From the words, acts, and blessings by Jesus upon Samaritans it didn't matter to Jesus. If you were seed of Abraham, you were still seed of Abraham and still in covenant with God. I see the Samaritans as important in the salvation that is of the Jews and possibly a shadow of future Jew-Gentile couplings and offspring that continued to exist in Jesus' day and all the way to today. It seems to me that if one had Abraham's DNA/seed in their mix-marriages then they were still in covenant and at the appointed time these halves, quarter, etc., Jews received salvation and blessings from Christ and God. But for the next forty years after Pentecost everything that happened concerning this New Covenant Era occurred to the Jews until the destruction of their Temple and further scattering of the Hebrew/Jewish people. So, all this leads me to one unmistakable fact: If a person had Abraham's DNA (seed) in their bloodlines then they were all still in covenant with God no matter the dilution of Abe's seed through Jew-Gentile offspring. Because God is a Promise-Keeper and Christ died to save "His people" and that in the NT God blessed what I call 'hard-core, uncircumcised, Roman, Scythian, and Barbarian Gentiles,' I can only conclude that because of the covenants God made with Abraham and his seed everyone who is his seed will become born-again and saved as time passes. Christ died to save "His people" even if there is non-Hebrew blood in their family histories. Because of the three exiles and scatterings of this people anyone in the NT and beyond, even after the destruction of the Temple in AD 70, anyone who is born-again must have Jewish/Abraham DNA in their family history and when "Gentiles" began their ascendency after AD 70 they all those "Christian" conversions speaks to me that these are not all pure Gentile people but must have Abraham's DNA in their family histories because God is a Promise-Keeper of promises made to Abraham (and his seed.)​

The problem I have is that this cannot be proved, nor can it be disproved. But it all sounds reasonable and possible, if not, probable.​

I grew up believing I am Gentile and I am. But I am also born-again and given the Holy Spirit of Promise in my life, a promise given to Israel, which knowing the covenant is with Abraham and his seed I might have, as well as all presumed Gentiles who became born-again might have Abe's DNA in my and their family histories. And we also need to make distinction in the NT of proselytes and God-Fearers.​

​

Having said ALL THAT the Scripture (OT) states God has covenant with Abraham and his seed and no covenant with Gentiles (non-Hebrew.)And I say again, if a presumed Gentile is born-again it might be the result of having Abraham's DNA in their family lines. Even to this day.​

The problem I have with Gentiles who took over the salvation that was of the Jews UNMOORED true, biblical Christianity from its Abrahamic, Mosaic, and Hebrew roots and come up in many Gentile theologies a new religion since AD 70 just as Judaism was the result of a detached Mosaic tradition that came about while in the Babylonian captivity.​

If alive or not, when the two witnesses show up (Rev. 11) I expect them to clear up a lot of Gentile theology and restore the covenant back to Israel and may also prove the Abrahamic DNA-Gentile connection.​

Whew!​

@Complete:- #65

Thank you for responding, with so thorough a reply. I understand where you are coming from now. You do not deny that many from among the Gentiles have indeed been born from above, through faith in the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ, God's only begotten Son: but maintain that they must be (unknowingly) descendants of Israel.​

@Jeremiah1five:- #66

That would have to be the sound, reasonable, and most likely conclusion given that God is a Promise Keeper and the Promises are with Abraham and HIS SEED.​

Hello again, @jeremiah1five,

* So why did our Lord Jesus Christ send Paul out among the Gentiles? (Acts 26: 16-18)
* If what you say is true, why was it necessary for there to be an Apostle to the circumcision (Peter) and another Apostle for the uncircumcision (Paul), if only those of Israeli descent were to be saved?
* Why was salvation sent to the Gentiles at Acts 28:28, if only those of Israeli descent had a hope of receiving of God's grace unto salvation?

'But rise, and stand upon thy feet:
for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose,
to make thee a minister and a witness
both of these things which thou hast seen,
and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Delivering thee from the people, (Israel)
and from the Gentiles,
unto whom now I send thee,
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light,
and from the power of Satan unto God,
that they may receive forgiveness of sins,
and inheritance among them which are sanctified
by faith that is in Me.'
(Act 26:16-18)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[jeremiah1five]

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/whats-love-got-to-do-with-it.623/post-81642

Hello again, @jeremiah1five,

* So why did our Lord Jesus Christ send Paul out among the Gentiles? (Acts 26: 16-18)
* If what you say is true, why was it necessary for there to be an Apostle to the circumcision (Peter) and another Apostle for the uncircumcision (Paul), if only those of Israeli descent were to be saved?
* Why was salvation sent to the Gentiles at Acts 28:28, if only those of Israeli descent had a hope of receiving of God's grace unto salvation?

'But rise, and stand upon thy feet:
for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose,
to make thee a minister and a witness
both of these things which thou hast seen,
and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Delivering thee from the people, (Israel)
and from the Gentiles,
unto whom now I send thee,
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light,
and from the power of Satan unto God,
that they may receive forgiveness of sins,
and inheritance among them which are sanctified
by faith that is in Me.'
(Act 26:16-18)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

You COMPLETE-ly misunderstand what I say.

Jesus said Scripture cannot be broken. The same goes for God's spoken word. When God spoke His Word to Moses and told him to write down the events described in Genesis 17 (for example) and you're sitting next to Moses and hear what God says to Moses are you going to contradict God and say that He means something else contrary to what He said??? This is what God told Moses:

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Gen. 17:7.

This covenant God made is between God, Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13), and Abraham's seed (offspring.)

Do you agree with this? It is extremely clear so I'm going to take it for granted you agree with this declaration of God that His covenant he made is with Abram the Hebrew and with his seed. Later, we find Abraham's seed being Isaac, and from Isaac, Jacob, whom the Lord changed his name to Israel. Israel had twelve sons and their descendants went into bondage in Egypt. When God delivered them, He took them to Mount Sinai and made a covenant through Moses with the children of Jacob/Israel.

Do you agree with this? Again, this history is found in Scripture and is unequivocally clear. This covenant is named to us as the Mosaic Covenant and it is between God, Abraham, and Abraham's descendants, a people called the children of Israel. Do you disagree with anything so far? If you're honest with Scripture then I'll take it for granted your answer is no, you don't disagree with what I say which is what Scripture says.

Now, after you hear what God told Moses to write concerning this covenant with Abraham and his descendants are you going to take God's spoken Word and take the position that non-Hebrew Gentiles are included in this covenant?

Let's fast forward to before Christ's birth. After being delivered from Egypt and Joshua's conquest of the land God gave them, in time the children of Israel wanted a king and even though God was their King God let them have a king like the nations that surrounded them. There was Saul, David, Solomon, and when Solomon died the kingdom split in two. Ten tribes to the north and two tribes to the south. Because of the sin of the northern king and these ten tribes God allowed Assyria to conquer them (722 B.C.), and they took a great many captives. All ten tribes were exiled and carried away to Assyria. Later, Babylon defeated Assyria and took over their capture Jews. In time Babylon made siege against the two southern tribes (Judah) and defeated Judah (586 B.C.) and took captives back to Babylon and scattered the southern tribes everywhere.

In 522 B.C. Hezakiah and a remnant of Jews returned to their land to rebuild their wall (522 B.C.) and these Jews remained in their land until the Romans conquered them and installed a puppet government in Herod the Great and his Tetrarch family.

Now, Jesus is born. One day during His Ministry (He was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel - not the house of Gentiles) and Jesus says, "Scripture cannot be broken."
By saying "Scripture cannot be broken," Jesus emphasized that every part of Scripture is true, reliable, and authoritative. It cannot be annulled, invalidated, or proven false. This statement underscores the permanence and integrity of God's Word, which stands unchangeable and unassailable. What has been written cannot be changed or added to or subtracted from by anyone who may comment on it. What is written is what is written and any interpretation of New Covenant writings (Matthew to Revelation) that contradicts what God has already said and was written down is to be rejected, especially the theology of Gentiles that include Gentiles after the fact into the three Hebrew covenants (Abrahamic, Mosaic, and New.) This theology breaks Scripture God told Moses to write in Genesis 17:7.

One more thing. The Law of Moses the children of Israel were under prescribed a yearly animal sacrifice to atone for the sins of the children of Israel. And in keeping with the Law of Moses - more Scripture that cannot be broken - Jesus Christ as Lamb of God was sacrificed to atone for the sins of the children of Israel finally and eternally. This is in keeping with the Word of God (Scripture.) Jesus didn't die for non-Hebrew Gentiles because the animal sacrifices under the Law were not sacrificed for any non-Hebrew Gentiles. This is supported clearly by Saul's words to Jewish Christians in Galatian region:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Gal. 4:4–5.

Looking at what transpired between Jesus and the woman at the well she was a Samaritan (half-Jew and half-non-Hebrew Gentile.) She was of the seed of Abraham because she was still Hebrew no matter the dilution of her DNA with non-Hebrew Gentiles. The promise of God is the Abraham covenant is with Abraham and his seed and she qualifies as being Abraham's seed.

Now, I acknowledge the New Covenant writings mention "Gentiles" and that Gentiles were being born-again and given the Holy Spirit of Promise THAT WAS PROMISED TO THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL) so in keeping with Scripture that cannot be broken and with God's promises to Abraham that his seed would benefit from this covenant the only conclusion I can reach is that these "Gentiles" that are born-again and given the Holy Spirit of Promise that was promised to the children of Israel - not to non-Hebrew Gentiles - I find that these "Gentiles" MUST be of Abrahamic descent. In other words, these presumed "Gentiles would have to have at least one parent in their ancestry to qualify them as being the seed of Abraham and in covenant and inheritor of his promises along with the Mosaic Law which sacrifices were for the seed of Abraham, even though these Jew-Gentile offspring lived as "Gentiles" in and around the Promised Land. Samaritans were looked at by Jews as being "Gentile" because of their mixed heritage but Jesus proved that mixed heritage Jew-Gentile were still the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the Promise.
That's all I'm saying, and I am saying everything in accordance with Scripture and Hebrew history.

Do you disagree with anything I've written here?

1. God has covenant with Abram the Hebrew and his seed (Hebrews.)
2. God made covenant with the children of Israel setting up animal sacrifices that atoned yearly for the sins of the children of Israel.
3. Christ was prophesied to and for the children of Israel.
4. Christ came to and for the lost sheep of the House of Israel.
5. The Holy Spirit of Promise was promised to the children of Israel.
6. Presumed "Gentiles" who became born-again and given the Holy Spirit of Promise who was promised to the children of Israel would have to have Abraham's seed in their ancestry because the covenant is with Abraham's seed and God promised the Holy Spirit of Promise to the children of Israel (Abraham's seed) - NOT to non-Hebrew Gentiles.
7. God keeps His Promises. If He said the covenant is with Abraham's seed, then that's who the covenant covers no matter the dilution of their mixed heritage and living as Gentiles. If they have Abraham's DNA in their family ancestry then they are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

I have said nothing contrary to Scripture and history.

 

[Complete]

You COMPLETEly misunderstand what I say.​

Hello @jeremiah1five,

You ended our dialogue recorded in the OP with agreement with what I had said: So in what way do you believe that I misunderstand what you said?

Jesus said Scripture cannot be broken. The same goes for God's spoken word. When God spoke His Word to Moses and told him to write down the events described in Genesis 17 (for example) and you're sitting next to Moses and hear what God says to Moses are you going to contradict God and say that He means something else contrary to what He said??? This is what God told Moses:​

​

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Gen. 17:7.​

​

This covenant God made is between God, Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13), and Abraham's seed (offspring.)​

​

Do you agree with this?​

* Yes, @jeremiah1five, I do agree that the words of Genesis 17:7 were spoken by Almighty God, to Abram, regarding the establishing of a covenant between God and Abram, and with His seed after him, for an everlasting covenant: the token of which was the act of circumcision (Gen.17:11).

It is extremely clear so I'm going to take it for granted you agree with this declaration of God that His covenant he made is with Abram the Hebrew and with his seed. Later, we find Abraham's seed being Isaac, and from Isaac, Jacob, whom the Lord changed his name to Israel. Israel had twelve sons and their descendants went into bondage in Egypt. When God delivered them, He took them to Mount Sinai and made a covenant through Moses with the children of Jacob/Israel.​

​

Do you agree with this?​

* Yes, I agree that God made a covenant with the children of Israel, Moses being the Mediator of it, at mount Sinai, which was confirmed in Exodus 24:7-8.

Again, this history is found in Scripture and is unequivocally clear. This covenant is named to us as the Mosaic Covenant and it is between God, Abraham, and Abraham's descendants, a people called the children of Israel. Do you disagree with anything so far? If you're honest with Scripture then I'll take it for granted your answer is no, you don't disagree with what I say which is what Scripture says.​

* Yes, I agree.

Now, after you hear what God told Moses to write concerning this covenant with Abraham and his descendants are you going to take God's spoken Word and take the position that non-Hebrew Gentiles are included in this covenant?​

​

Let's fast forward to before Christ's birth. After being delivered from Egypt and Joshua's conquest of the land God gave them, in time the children of Israel wanted a king and even though God was their King God let them have a king like the nations that surrounded them. There was Saul, David, Solomon, and when Solomon died the kingdom split in two. Ten tribes to the north and two tribes to the south. Because of the sin of the northern king and these ten tribes God allowed Assyria to conquer them (722 B.C.), and they took a great many captives. All ten tribes were exiled and carried away to Assyria. Later, Babylon defeated Assyria and took over their capture Jews. In time Babylon made siege against the two southern tribes (Judah) and defeated Judah (586 B.C.) and took captives back to Babylon and scattered the southern tribes everywhere.​

​

In 522 B.C. Hezakiah and a remnant of Jews returned to their land to rebuild their wall (522 B.C.) and these Jews remained in their land until the Romans conquered them and installed a puppet government in Herod the Great and his Tetrarch family.​

* Yes, I agree.

Now, Jesus is born. One day during His Ministry (He was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel - not the house of Gentiles) and Jesus says, "Scripture cannot be broken."​

'But He (The Lord Jesus) answered and said, ​

I am not sent but unto ​

the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'​

(Mat 15:24)​

​

' ... the scripture cannot be broken; ... ' (see the context)​

(John 10:35b)​

* The scripture is not able to be broken, for it is the word of God: It's precepts are capable of being broken by man, but the breaking of them brings judgment. (see John 7:23)

By saying "Scripture cannot be broken," Jesus emphasized that every part of Scripture is true, reliable, and authoritative. It cannot be annulled, invalidated, or proven false. This statement underscores the permanence and integrity of God's Word, which stands unchangeable and unassailable. What has been written cannot be changed or added to or subtracted from by anyone who may comment on it. What is written is what is written and any interpretation of New Covenant writings (Matthew to Revelation) that contradicts what God has already said and was written down is to be rejected, especially the theology of Gentiles that include Gentiles after the fact into the three Hebrew covenants (Abrahamic, Mosaic, and New.) This theology breaks Scripture God told Moses to write in Genesis 17:7.​

* I believe that 'all Scripture is given by inspiration of God'. (2 Tim. 3:16)

One more thing. The Law of Moses the children of Israel were under prescribed a yearly animal sacrifice to atone for the sins of the children of Israel. And in keeping with the Law of Moses - more Scripture that cannot be broken - Jesus Christ as Lamb of God was sacrificed to atone for the sins of the children of Israel finally and eternally. This is in keeping with the Word of God (Scripture.) Jesus didn't die for non-Hebrew Gentiles because the animal sacrifices under the Law were not sacrificed for any non-Hebrew Gentiles. This is supported clearly by Saul's words to Jewish Christians in Galatian region:​

4'But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,​

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.' (Gal. 4:4–5).​

Looking at what transpired between Jesus and the woman at the well she was a Samaritan (half-Jew and half-non-Hebrew Gentile.) She was of the seed of Abraham because she was still Hebrew no matter the dilution of her DNA with non-Hebrew Gentiles. The promise of God is the Abraham covenant is with Abraham and his seed and she qualifies as being Abraham's seed.​

* I hear you, Jeremiah1five.

Now, I acknowledge the New Covenant writings mention "Gentiles" and that Gentiles were being born-again and given the Holy Spirit of Promise (THAT WAS PROMISED TO THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL) so in keeping with Scripture that cannot be broken and with God's promises to Abraham that his seed would benefit from this covenant the only conclusion I can reach is that these "Gentiles" that are born-again and given the Holy Spirit of Promise that was promised to the children of Israel - not to non-Hebrew Gentiles - I find that these "Gentiles" MUST be of Abrahamic descent. In other words, these presumed "Gentiles would have to have at least one parent in their ancestry to qualify them as being the seed of Abraham and in covenant and inheritor of his promises along with the Mosaic Law which sacrifices were for the seed of Abraham, even though these Jew-Gentile offspring lived as "Gentiles" in and around the Promised Land. Samaritans were looked at by Jews as being "Gentile" because of their mixed heritage but Jesus proved that mixed heritage Jew-Gentile were still the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the Promise.​

That's all I'm saying, and I am saying everything in accordance with Scripture and Hebrew history.​

Do you disagree with anything I've written here?​

* I do disagree with you in relation to your use of the word of God here, yes.
* Consider please, the Gentiles following the conversion of Cornelius and his company in Acts 10, who were grafted into the olive tree of Israel (Acts 11), and partook of 'the root and fatness' of the olive tree ( the olive tree being symbolic of Israel's religious privileges ). If we were meant to understand the use of 'gentile' (a believing gentile) to be, as you assert, one who is genetically of Hebrew descent , we would have been told so in the word of God: and also there would have been no need to graft them into the olive tree of Israel in Romans 11, for as Israelites by heredity, they would have been included among the natural branches surely?

1. God has covenant with Abram the Hebrew and his seed (Hebrews.)​

2. God made covenant with the children of Israel setting up animal sacrifices that atoned yearly for the sins of the children of Israel.​

3. Christ was prophesied to and for the children of Israel.​

4. Christ came to and for the lost sheep of the House of Israel.​

5. The Holy Spirit of Promise was promised to the children of Israel.​

6. Presumed "Gentiles" who became born-again and given the Holy Spirit of Promise who was promised to the children of Israel would have to have Abraham's seed in their ancestry because the covenant is with Abraham's seed and God promised the Holy Spirit of Promise to the children of Israel (Abraham's seed) - NOT to non-Hebrew Gentiles.​

7. God keeps His Promises. If He said the covenant is with Abraham's seed, then that's who the covenant covers no matter the dilution of their mixed heritage and living as Gentiles. If they have Abraham's DNA in their family ancestry then they are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.​

​

I have said nothing contrary to Scripture and history.​

* I agree that God made covenants with Israel only: but the Gentiles were allowed entry into the kingdom in Acts 11: grafted in, in order to make Israel jealous, and seek to emulate them (Rom. 11:14).

'Then Peter opened his mouth, and said,
Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
But in every nation he that feareth Him,
and worketh righteousness,
is accepted with Him.'
(Act 10:34-35)

'And when there had been much disputing,
Peter rose up, and said unto them,
Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago
God made choice among us,
that the Gentiles by my mouth
should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness,
giving them the Holy Ghost, even as He did unto us;
And put no difference between us and them,
purifying their hearts by faith.
Now therefore why tempt ye God,
to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples,
which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ
we shall be saved, even as they.'
(Act 15:7-11)

* I will not try to persuade you concerning this matter, for only God can deliver you from this stumbling stone, Jeremiah1five. You are so knowledgeable, it is such a shame that you have this barrier preventing you from being able to enter into the truth concerning the Gentiles.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
Our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[jeremiah1five]

Hello @jeremiah1five,

You ended our dialogue recorded in the OP with agreement with what I had said: So in what way do you believe that I misunderstand what you said?

* Yes, @jeremiah1five, I do agree that the words of Genesis 17:7 were spoken by Almighty God, to Abram, regarding the establishing of a covenant between God and Abram, and with His seed after him, for an everlasting covenant: the token of which was the act of circumcision (Gen.17:11).

* Yes, I agree that God made a covenant with the children of Israel, Moses being the Mediator of it, at mount Sinai, which was confirmed in Exodus 24:7-8.

* Yes, I agree.

* Yes, I agree.

'But He (The Lord Jesus) answered and said, ​

I am not sent but unto ​

the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'​

(Mat 15:24)​

​

' ... the scripture cannot be broken; ... ' (see the context)​

(John 10:35b)​

* The scripture is not able to be broken, for it is the word of God: It's precepts are capable of being broken by man, but the breaking of them brings judgment. (see John 7:23)


* I believe that 'all Scripture is given by inspiration of God'. (2 Tim. 3:16)

* I hear you, Jeremiah1five.

* I do disagree with you in relation to your use of the word of God here, yes.
* Consider please, the Gentiles following the conversion of Cornelius and his company in Acts 10, who were grafted into the olive tree of Israel (Acts 11), and partook of 'the root and fatness' of the olive tree ( the olive tree being symbolic of Israel's religious privileges ). If we were meant to understand the use of 'gentile' (a believing gentile) to be, as you assert, one who is genetically of Hebrew descent , we would have been told so in the word of God: and also there would have been no need to graft them into the olive tree of Israel in Romans 11, for as Israelites by heredity, they would have been included among the natural branches surely?

* I agree that God made covenants with Israel only: but the Gentiles were allowed entry into the kingdom in Acts 11: grafted in, in order to make Israel jealous, and seek to emulate them (Rom. 11:14).

'Then Peter opened his mouth, and said,
Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
But in every nation he that feareth Him,
and worketh righteousness,
is accepted with Him.'
(Act 10:34-35)

'And when there had been much disputing,
Peter rose up, and said unto them,
Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago
God made choice among us,
that the Gentiles by my mouth
should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness,
giving them the Holy Ghost, even as He did unto us;
And put no difference between us and them,
purifying their hearts by faith.
Now therefore why tempt ye God,
to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples,
which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ
we shall be saved, even as they.'
(Act 15:7-11)

* I will not try to persuade you concerning this matter, for only God can deliver you from this stumbling stone, Jeremiah1five. You are so knowledgeable, it is such a shame that you have this barrier preventing you from being able to enter into the truth concerning the Gentiles.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
Our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

Answer me these questions.

When the New Covenant writings mention Gentiles who is it referring to?

1. circumcised, committed to Israel proselytes.
2. uncircumcised, committed God-Fearers?
3. mixed heritage Jew-Gentile offspring? A Samaritan type of mixed offspring.

Which?

And you contradict yourself. Early on you agree Scripture cannot be broken, that the Abraham Covenant is between God, Abraham, and Abraham's seed, and then you say Gentiles are grafted in. Do you realize that breaks Scripture? Gentiles are not named nor identified or mentioned in the Abraham covenant in Genesis 17.
As I said before any New Covenant writings interpretation that contradicts what is written in the Hebrew Scripture of Law, Psalms, and Prophets is a lie and adds to the bible and is to be rejected.
But not you. You'd rather contradict God.

 

[synergy]

Answer me these questions.

When the New Covenant writings mention Gentiles who is it referring to?

1. circumcised, committed to Israel proselytes.
2. uncircumcised, committed God-Fearers?
3. mixed heritage Jew-Gentile offspring? A Samaritan type of mixed offspring.

Which?

Uncircumcised Regenerated Bacon-Eating Pork-Eating Trinitarian-Worshipping Gentiles.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Uncircumcised Regenerated Bacon-Eating Pork-Eating Trinitarian-Worshipping Gentiles.

I take it you mean non-covenant, uncircumcised, idol worshiping, non-Hebrew Gentiles and you would be wrong.

All three Hebrew covenants - Abrahamic, Mosaic, New - are between God and the Hebrew people.

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Gen. 17:7.

The Mosaic Covenant is between God and the children of Israel.

The New Covenant is between God and the Houses of Israel and Judah.

There are no non-Hebrew Gentiles in any of the three Hebrew covenant.



NONE

 

[Complete]

Answer me these questions.

When the New Covenant writings mention Gentiles who is it referring to?

1. circumcised, committed to Israel proselytes.
2. uncircumcised, committed God-Fearers?
3. mixed heritage Jew-Gentile offspring? A Samaritan type of mixed offspring.

Which?

Hello @jeremiah1five,

In answer to your question, (quote) 'When the New Covenant writings mention Gentiles who is it referring to?': 'Surely it is the context which determines that; for example, the description given of Cornelius and his household is far different from that referring to Gentiles in the Ephesian epistle, compare, Acts 10:1-2, 22; 10:7, and Ephesians 2:11-22:-

Cornelius:-​

'There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius,​

a centurion of the band called the Italian band,​

A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, ​

which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.'​

'And they said, Cornelius the centurion,​

a just man, and one that feareth God, ​

and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, ​

was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee ​

into his house, and to hear words of thee.'​

(Act 10:22)​

His Household:-​

' ... a devout soldier '​

​

* God Himself enabled Peter to act contrary to the law by which he had, as a Jew lived, by telling him that he was no longer to judge a man of another nation as unclean, and therefore was free to keep company with them.

'And he (Peter) said unto them, ​

Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew ​

to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; ​

but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.'​

(Act 10:28)​

* So God Himself changed that law in this case, He who gave it to Moses and the People at Sinai, Himself changed it. So the Scripture can be broken, if broken by God Himself, that His purposes be accomplished.

Ephesians:- ​

'Wherefore remember, ​

that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, ​

who are called Uncircumcision ​

by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;​

That at that time ye were without Christ, ​

being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, ​

and strangers from the covenants of promise, ​

having no hope, and without God in the world:​

But now - in Christ Jesus ​

ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.​

For He is our peace, ​

who hath made both one, ​

and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;​

Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, ​

even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; ​

for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;​

And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, ​

having slain the enmity thereby:​

And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, ​

and to them that were nigh.​

For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.​

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, ​

but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;​

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, ​

Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;​

In Whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:​

In Whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.'​

(Eph 2:11-22)​

Praise God!​

And you contradict yourself. Early on you agree Scripture cannot be broken, that the Abraham Covenant is between God, Abraham, and Abraham's seed, and then you say Gentiles are grafted in. Do you realize that breaks Scripture? Gentiles are not named nor identified or mentioned in the Abraham covenant in Genesis 17.​

As I said before any New Covenant writings interpretation that contradicts what is written in the Hebrew Scripture of Law, Psalms, and Prophets is a lie and adds to the bible and is to be rejected.​

But not you. You'd rather contradict God.​

* jeremiah1five, there is no contradiction: For as God in His word has shown, God Himself is capable of lawfully breaking Scripture to fulfil His Own purposes, for He has done so, in the record of Peter and Cornelius, and also in Ephesians, where we read that He, in the person of His Son, abolished in His flesh, the law of commandments, thereby establishing peace between Jew and Gentile believers in the Body of Christ: making them ONE in Him.

Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Studyman]

Do you disagree with anything I've written here?

1. God has covenant with Abram the Hebrew and his seed (Hebrews.)

The Jesus "of the Bible" teaches me that the Children, (Seed) of Abraham are those who do the works of Abraham.

John 8: 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Paul also believed in this same Jesus.

Rom. 2: 28 For he is not a Jew, (Hebrew) which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, (Hebrew) which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

And Moses was perfectly aligned with them.

Lev. 19: 33 And if a stranger (Not a Hebrew outwardly) sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. 34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you "as one born among you", and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

This Gentile would then become a New Man "which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness", Yes? He would become a Hebrew, and child of Abraham, like Rebab.


Shall we not believe and accept their definition of a "Hebrew" so as to know who the Heirs of the covenant's of promise are?

2. God made covenant with the children of Israel setting up animal sacrifices that atoned yearly for the sins of the children of Israel.

This covenant was "ADDED" because of transgressions. When God first brought Israel out of Egypt, there was no Law concerning yearly burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin.

Jer. 7: 22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

This Law concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin was "ADDED" because of transgressions (Golden calf), "Till the Seed" (Prophesied Messiah) should come. This Covenant was prophesied to change "after those days".

3. Christ was prophesied to and for the children of Israel. 4. Christ came to and for the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

Is. 11: 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Is. 42: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Is. 49: 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Jer. 16: 19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

Shall we not believe and accept what the Scriptures actually say regarding who Jesus was Prophesied to and for?

5. The Holy Spirit of Promise was promised to the children of Israel.

Is. 56: 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Acts 5: 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

So anyone who would "Join themselves" to the Lord would be considered as one who is homeborn, Yes? So the True "Children of Israel" are those who "Yield Themselves" servants to obey God as did Abraham who God said "obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

And Caleb, and Gideon, and all the Examples of "Faith" we are given, yes?

6. Presumed "Gentiles" who became born-again and given the Holy Spirit of Promise who was promised to the children of Israel would have to have Abraham's seed in their ancestry because the covenant is with Abraham's seed and God promised the Holy Spirit of Promise to the children of Israel (Abraham's seed) - NOT to non-Hebrew Gentiles.

This may be what is taught by the religions of this world, those "Many" who come in Christ's Name that the Jesus "of the Bible" warned about. Those men Paul warned of who "Transform themselves" into apostles of Christ. Those "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, but work iniquity.

But I just posted a few scriptures which cannot be broken, there are volumes more, which teach a completely different doctrine. I advocate that a man listens to the Word of God, as opposed to the "other voice" in the garden God placed us in.

7. God keeps His Promises. If He said the covenant is with Abraham's seed, (Those who do the works of Abraham) then that's who the covenant covers no matter the dilution of their mixed heritage and living as Gentiles. If they have Abraham's DNA (The God "of the Bible" is no respecter of persons, and does not Judge men by the DNA they were born with) in their family ancestry then they are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

I have said nothing contrary to Scripture and history.

You mean well no doubt, but you are promoting popular religious philosophies created by this world's religious sects and businesses who "Come in Christ's Name". Please consider the Scriptures posted to you, those you didn't include in your sermon. Paul said they are trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

My hope is that you might be edified by the Scriptures.

 

[Complete]

Re. Acts 10:28:-

'But I have said unto you,
Ye shall inherit their land,
and I will give it unto you to possess it,
a land that floweth with milk and honey:
I am the LORD your God,
which have separated you from other people.
Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean,
and between unclean fowls and clean:
and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl,
or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground,
which I have separated from you as unclean.
And ye shall be holy unto me:
for I the LORD am holy,
and have severed you from other people,
that ye should be mine.'
(Lev 20:24-26)

'And he (Peter) said unto them (Cornelius & co.,),
Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing
for a man that is a Jew to keep company,
or come unto one of another nation;
but God hath shewed me
that I should not call any man common or unclean.'
(Act 10:28)

'And He (the risen Lord) said unto me (Saul),
Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.
And they (the Jews) gave him audience unto this word,
and then lifted up their voices, and said,
Away with such a fellow from the earth:
for it is not fit that he should live.
And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air,
The chief captain commanded him to be brought into the castle,
and bade that he should be examined by scourging;
that he might know wherefore they cried so against him.'
(Act 22:21-23)