praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I haven't denied that God has been good to sinful men in the lineage of Abraham. However, God has been good to all of humanity. Even the those you hate.
My issue is not who you include but who you exclude.
As a Matter of Fact.
- Thread starter jeremiah1five
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I haven't denied that God has been good to sinful men in the lineage of Abraham. However, God has been good to all of humanity. Even the those you hate.
My issue is not who you include but who you exclude.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
I exclude everyone but Abram the Hebrew and his Hebrew seed.
You include everyone and every life which Scripture does not include, and I am only saying the same thing as God that only Hebrews are in all three covenants with God. You are teaching Universalism, which is unbiblical, especially with passages like this one:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Gal. 4:4–5.
There is nothing in the bible that even comes close to saying this of non-Hebrew Gentiles.
The reason being, that non-Hebrew Gentiles are not in the Abraham covenant. Any claims that they are is contradicting God and His Word.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Christ is the heir of all things. Remember those words. Remember when Paul spoke at the Areopagus. He spoke to GREEK peoples in Athens.
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Excluding others based upon their race makes you a racist. YOU are a racist hack pretending to be like Christ when Christ gave Himself for all men.
The fact that this website would allow to rant about your racism while attacking me for calling you out as a racist is really ridiculous.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
It is the exact opposite of what you say.
There is nothing in the epistle of Galatians that could make any uneducated reader, or great scholar, think that Paul is excluding non-Hebrew Gentiles. I can examine the epistle verse by verse if needed.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
The Law was given to the children of Israel. All the Old Testament prophets were sent to Israel and they spoke directly to Israel.
Nothing has changed after Israel's Messiah died to atone finally and eternally for the sins of the children of Israel.
Now, because of the two conquests and exiles the message of Israel's Messiah's arrival was still to the children of Israel but now the seed of Abraham has been mixed with non-Hebrew Gentiles in the same way Samaritans were also seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise.
The Holy Spirit of Promise was PROMISED TO ISRAEL and never to non-Hebrew Gentiles. You can check with Joel for proof. It would be a breaking of Scripture and violation of the covenants for God or any of His prophets to herald that non-Hebrew Gentiles were being given the Holy Spirit.
Three thousand Jews were born again on Pentecost and Jesus added thousands to His Church daily such as should be saved.
Thousands and thousands of Jews were being born-again throughout Israel and in Gentile lands where they lived thanks to Jews who went back to their homes and synagogues after Pentecost testifying the arrival of Israel's Messiah and what He did and also the Holy Spirit of Promise finally coming to Israel in fulfillment of Joel's prophecy.
Two things:
Prove from Scripture in Genesis 12, 15, and 17 non-Hebrew Gentiles mentioned as being in the Abraham Covenant, and
Prove from Scripture any prophecy or promise by God that non-Hebrew Gentiles were promised to Holy Spirit.
THEN you'll have my respect and THEN you will have refuted my position.
The thing is, if there was such a promise I would be the first one supporting it because it is in the Word of God.
But if you can't answer these two points, then submit to the truth of the Word of God and begin to say the same thing as God.
1 And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them,
2 Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
3 And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide.
4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.
Acts 4:1–4.
Three thousand Jews on Pentecost, and five thousand Jews weeks later it seems God is keeping the promises He made to Abraham and to his Hebrew seed.
There is nothing in the bible of non-Hebrews being born-again, but it does say mixed heritage Hebrews who were referred to as "Gentile" because they are the descendants of the Assyrian and Babylonian conquest and exile and lived in Gentile lands influenced by Greek culture (Hellenized) were being born-again by their Holy Spirit of Promise.
(But I'm sure you can't answer my two simple questions or you'll just ignore them and prove my point.)
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Show me in the Hebrew Scripture a prophet of God promising His Spirit to non-Hebrew Gentiles.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
By supporting the Scripture that there are no non-Hebrew Gentiles in any of the three Hebrew covenants I'm a racist? You must be a democrat. The thing they accuse Republicans and Conservative of they are guilty of without a doubt.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Scripture cannot be broken.
The Abraham Covenant is between God and a man He identified as Hebrew. It also includes Abraham's Hebrew seed.
The Mosaic Covenant is between God and the children of Israel.
The New Covenant is between God and the House of Israel and Judah.
Show me where again where non-Hebrews Gentiles are in any of these three Hebrew covenants.
Don't bother. There is none.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Scripture cannot be broken.
So, if the gospel was preached for people who were outside the covenant between God and Israel, it is because salvation does not depend on written covenants.
There is no single verse in the Bible that says that God didn't love the Persians, for example.
You wrongly conclude that God didn't love the Persians because you find only verses that talk about God's love, promises or covenant with Israel.
If I was writing a love letter to my wife, I wouldn't mention the love I have for my mother or sister. That wouldn't mean I don't love my mother or sister. It would only mean that such letter is focused in my love to my wife.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
That's exactly why Jews were surprised seeing the Holy Spirit being poured on Gentiles.
If they had expected that, they wouldn't have been surprised.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Prove from Scripture that God does not love the Chinese.
Prove from the writings of any Jewish scholar that God does not love the Chinese.
Until you prove that, your position remains refuted.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
The three Hebrew covenants were made by God to and for the Hebrew people and as we look in hindsight can see the progression of God's salvation to this people being establish in the Law given to the Hebrews for their life and living, one of which was the Ceremonial Law which mandated a sacrificial system addressing their sin and culminating with the advent of the lamb of God as substitute to atone finally and eternally for the sins of the Hebrew people in the Abraham, and Mosaic Covenants. If there were any advances towards non-Hebrew Gentiles to become part of this covenantal economy established by God to and for the Hebrew people, the people themselves would be in uproar that any attempt to add to God's Law and covenants would indeed be a breaking of Scripture. To add uncircumcised, non-Hebrew, non-covenant Gentiles into any aspect of Hebrew covenants or Law would violate everything established by God to and for the Hebrew people. It never happened. There was no covenant in the Hebrew Scripture between the God of Abraham and uncircumcised Gentiles. This is why they were seen always as outside the covenants of God with the seed of Abraham.
The Scripture record a positive relationship between the God of Abraham and the Hebrew people covering thousands of years and focusing on Hebrew history, its prophets, its prophecies of a coming Redeemer to the people of Israel which was fulfilled in the Person of Jesus of Nazareth. The Hebrew Scripture doesn't need to say God doesn't love Gentiles when the whole focus is on God loving Abraham and his seed, NOT the seed of Ham or Japheth. But here is a Scripture that declares God's hatred for the wicked and their wickedness. This is referencing Gentiles who are outside the grace of God established in the three Hebrew covenants of God's Law and the Hebrew adherence to God's Law and the mechanism of righteousness and grace covering the Jews through the sacrificial system of salvation and redemption.
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight:
Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psalms 5:5.
The word "workers" is personal noun meaning the person. Gentiles were "workers" of iniquity, but the Jews were under the Law and whose sins were covered yearly through animal sacrifice until the LORD would send His own Son to die as substitute for the animal which atoned yearly for the sins of the Hebrew people. That was the whole purpose of the Ceremonial Law. It builds upon the Passover first established while the Hebrew people were in bondage in Egypt. All the first born of the Egyptians were killed by the Holy Spirit while the Hebrew people were protected by the blood of the lamb offered in accordance with God's will and instruction. Gentiles have never been part of this Passover, and in fact, were the recipients of God's judgment for their unatoned sin. The blood of the lamb covered the Hebrew people while all else fall under the judgment of God.
If you were writing a letter to your wife as Saul and the other apostles wrote to the Jews and Jewish Christians identified as the "Church" of twelve tribes, it can never be taken as written to anyone other than your wife, and yet the specific mention of the Church that Jesus Christ would build mentioned in the New Covenant writings are used by Gentiles that God was writing to them which is like your letters to your wife, although personally mentioned to your wife, is also to those women not your wife. See the stupidity of Gentiles who have done this to Hebrew epistles authored by Hebrew men written to and for the Hebrew people in covenant with God - specifically, the New Covenant established in the blood of the lamb of God, Jesus Christ, Israel's Kinsman-Redeemer, Savior, and King.
The Church Christ promised to build was founded on three thousand Jews and populated by Jews. And why not? It is a Jewish covenant with a Jewish Messiah Promised to the Jewish people for their salvation ONLY.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Joel never prophesied God's Spirit would be poured out on Gentiles. Learn to read, and not only that, but to comprehend what you read. You can't understand the Hebrew Scripture as a Gentile outside that culture with a Gentile mindset.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
That’s my point. That’s exactly why those Jews were surprised.
Do you have a Hebrew mindset?
Then why do Hebrews do not share your views ?
Johann
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Pancho Frijoles
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Johann
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jeremiah1five
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The Jews took issue with mixed heritage Samaritans who were the offspring of Assyrians after they conquered the northern kingdom. The two southern kingdom tribes already had animosity against the ten northern tribes and so now with mixed heritage Hebrews of Assyrian ancestry the animosity was now directed to these "half-breeds."
So, when these mixed Hebrews whose ancestry was from other Gentile stock they were seen as "Gentile" and not as "Samaritan." The Jews were surprised because these "other" mixed heritage Hebrews received the promised Spirit along with the apostles as they had "from the beginning" (Pentecost.) It's important to "take out" from Scripture understanding based upon what is written and not add to the bible leanings of your own understanding. Once understanding of the Hebrew Scripture has been attained, then anything taking place and written in the New Covenant writings is easier to understand because it's only an extension of the Old Testament writings. No one added to the Hebrew Scripture except non-Hebrew Gentiles who try desperately to include themselves in God's promises to Abraham and his seed but it falls short because the New Covenant writings will never contradict what has been written in the Hebrew Scripture writings. The problem lies in ignorance of the Hebrew Scripture which leads to misunderstanding the text of the New Testament writings. It's the interpretations that are in error.
The Hebrews are coming around. When the two witnesses of Revelation arrive, their prophecies will correct many misunderstandings of the Hebrews because God controls the 'light' a person receives to understand God's Word and God is even now bringing these things to the attention of the Hebrews in preparation of Messiah's return.
And when He arrives things will be better understood as these witnesses use the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophetic writings to prove Jesus is their Messiah.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
According to your view, the attitude of Jews was irrational, since the Samaritans or Greeks approached by Jesus or his apostles were actually, to same extent, children of Abraham, and therefore heirs of the same promises.
Such argument has a big problem:
Nowhere in Scriptures Jesus and the apostles try to persuade Jews to calm down and embrace Samaritans or Greeks on the basis of a partially shared lineage.
- When Jesus praises the faith of the Centurion, Jesus does not explain that the centurion is also, even partially, an Israelite. On the contrary, Jesus says that He has not found such a faith in Israel.
- In the vision God presented to Peter to encourage him to see Cornelius, God does not persuade Peter on the basis of a genealogy. On the contrary, God makes Peter know that God has righteous people in every nation. When coming back to Jerusalem, Peter does not try to calm down the Jews by explaining that Cornelius had a mixed Hebrew heritage.
- Across his letters, Paul does not try to refute Judaizers by explaining to them that Greek converts are partially the seed of Abraham. On the contrary, Paul makes every single effort to refute them by explaining that it is the spiritual change of heart, the faith in Jesus Christ, what makes those Greeks seed of Abraham.
Your argument is not supported by Scriptural evidence.
In Scripture, Gentiles are approached
1) without any inquiry on their lineage
2) without trying to calm down opposing Jews by appealing to a partially shared lineage
So you admit to the fact that the current Hebrew mindset, and the mindset held by Hebrews over millennia, is not your mindset.
You think that Hebrews will change their mindset and embrace the view that non-Hebrews will be destroyed by God since He has never loved them. Is that what you think?
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jeremiah1five
Well-known member
At this point, no.
27 And upon this came his disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her? John 4:27.
Only a mixed heritage Hebrew would know about Jewish traditions and the Law of Moses. The "faith" the centurion expressed was in his knowledge of the Hebrew Scripture and their many references given that identify Israel's Messiah and Kinsman-Redeemer. That's all that was about. Nothing more.
The whole thing had to do with presumed ethnicity and Peter as a hard-core believer in the accepted social norms of maintaining ethnic purity was, like James and John and the rest of Israel, prejudicial towards mixed heritage Hebrews. Imaging Cornelius talking about his ancestry in comparison to Peter or James. One could talk about being a son of Abraham naming tribe, family, and clan, the other couldn't. Somewhere Cornelius would have to say, "son of Simeon, Yakob, Herbert, Tony..."
He does that in the context of their being a seed of Abraham. For every "Jew" who believed in the words of Moses and the prophets believed and prayed for God to send a Deliverer "like unto [Moses]" and by believing the Scripture were Christian. The Hebrew nation is the only Christian nation on the planet. Not America, nor France, or Britain, or Australia.
That is what Scripture records and it's important to not only see the same Jesus of the bible but to say the same thing as God.
Which is what I do.
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