PSA as central to the Gospel

Isa 53:3 includes you, @civic, myself, @Tothalordbeallglory, @Red Baker and everyone who has committed sin

Relative to prophecy, I would say it is dealing with those at the Crucifixion but it does deal with the gradual decline of humanity into a cesspool contrary to what God purposed for them.

Lord knows I feel lasting guilt and regret for what I've done and what I haven't done. I see sin in so many things. I bet I see sin in more things than you actually do.

The best argument your position has is found in the KJV in verse 11.

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Which is a very bad translation. I can't say that to @Red Baker for he is basically a KJVOist that believes God has preserved the Scriptures in the Early Modern English of his generation.

The issue is even deeper than the extant Masoretic Text from the 9th century. We can discuss it deeper but I'm not sure you really want to know. It will do me no good to try to convince you of this if you're not wanting to really know the truth. If you're satisfied with what you believe, then so be it. We can just argue about it.
 
Isa 53:3 includes you, @civic, myself, @Tothalordbeallglory, @Red Baker and everyone who has committed sin
Well of course it does no one is denying that truth. :)

The Issue is PSA which teaches there was a separation between the Father/Son as His wrath was being poured out on the Son.

Everything else is a diversion thats not dealing with this unbiblical doctrine. Thats the core teaching on PSA.
 
Relative to prophecy, I would say it is dealing with those at the Crucifixion but it does deal with the gradual decline of humanity into a cesspool contrary to what God purposed for them.

Lord knows I feel lasting guilt and regret for what I've done and what I haven't done. I see sin in so many things. I bet I see sin in more things than you actually do.

The best argument your position has is found in the KJV in verse 11.

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Which is a very bad translation. I can't say that to @Red Baker for he is basically a KJVOist that believes God has preserved the Scriptures in the Early Modern English of his generation.

The issue is even deeper than the extant Masoretic Text from the 9th century. We can discuss it deeper but I'm not sure you really want to know. It will do me no good to try to convince you of this if you're not wanting to really know the truth. If you're satisfied with what you believe, then so be it. We can just argue about it.
I have a thread on that I believe in the PSA section. I'll see if I can did it up.
 
Well of course it does no one is denying that truth. :)

The Issue is PSA which teaches there was a separation between the Father/Son as His wrath was being poured out on the Son.

Everything else is a diversion thats not dealing with this unbiblical doctrine. Thats the core teaching on PSA.
PSA SPA SAP = none of this is Core TRUTH

The Core Truth of the Word of God to us is = someone had to pay for your and my sins

This Core Truth begins in Genesis
 
@DavidTree @civic
VERSE 53:6 later...

Isaiah 53:6​

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”

Like sheep, ignorant and foolish, we chose our own way rather than the way of righteousness. When the LORD looked upon the children of men, He found none in the right way (Psalm 14:1-3). He found man without any thought of Him and filled with thoughts of sin (Psalm 10:4; Genesis 6:5). God had made man upright, but they had sought out many inventions, like Adam (Eccl. 7:29). The LORD made both Adams the federal head of their posterity which we call the doctrine of representation; and He charged Jesus Christ with all our many sins, just as He had charged us with Adam’s rebellion. The LORD chose the mighty Son of David upon whom to lay the work (Psalm 89:19; Revelation 5:5). Sin and sins were laid upon the Lord Jesus in a divine legal transaction, whereby God would consider and accept the substitution sufficient for His absolute justice and (a) absolve His elect from all their own sins and (b) consider them with the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ. Hallelujah!

How do we know this? By reading and believing: (Romans 5:6-21; 2nd Corinthians 5:18-21; Galatians 3:13; Hebrews 10:1-14; Ist Peter 2:24)!

Isaiah 53:7
“He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.”

Though enduring great oppression and affliction, Jesus did not revile those who reviled Him; and He did not call for twelve legions of angels or otherwise threaten those who abused Him (Matthew 26:53; Ist Peter 2:23). Consider the song, “He Could Have Called Ten Thousand Angels.” As the lies and false charges were brought, He said nothing at all, causing marvel (Matthew 27:14). They mocked, dared, challenged, and ridiculed Him, which He took meekly and submissively. How easily He could have told a few intimate details of their lives and described hell for them! When they dared Him to identify His tormentors, He knew every detail of their lives, ancestors, physical bodies, fears, hopes, and circumstances. He could have verbally destroyed them! When they challenged Him as the Son of God, He was the Son of God! Yet He meekly died! When challenged by the thieving criminals beside Him, He did not retort about His own righteousness and their wickedness! When begged for mercy by a repenting thief, He only gave Him the greatest promise in life! As sheep at shearing or slaughter, Jesus did not open His mouth but meekly submitted to death. What an example He gave us, which we fail to fulfill with the least irritations (Ist Peter 2:20-24)! So he opened not his mouth: not against his enemies, by way of threatening or complaint; nor even in his own defence; nor against the justice of God, as bearing hard upon him, not sparing him, but demanding and having full satisfaction; nor against his people and their sins, for whom he suffered; again, see 1st Peter 2:23.

Isaiah 53:8​

“He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.”

Which show why he opened not his mouth, because in the place of his people and before the law of God as their surety he was guilty..."for the transgression of my people was he stricken.” Jesus was indeed stricken according to God's will by using wicked and ungodly men to carry out his eternal purposes.

He was not given a proper and fair trial, where governors and kings were ordained to protect Him; but rather He was taken from their protection and turned over to the demands of angry enemies. Neither Pilate nor Herod would protect Him (Matthew 27:24-26). Though faultless and charged out of envy, the justice of government was overthrown to punish him fatally while simultaneously freeing a man truly guilty of murder and worthy of death. The priests, who were given God’s precious law and the responsibility of leading the nation in righteousness and equity, did all they could to finally foment His crucifixion. There is no reason to make His grave the prison and His sacrificial death the judgment and introduce positive deliverance in the midst of continued negative clauses of His humiliation. Who could declare or describe His generation, for naturally He had none, since He was killed in the prime of life before marriage or descendants. His biography was cut short by murder! This is not a positive statement as to His future glorified generation, as some have said; for the general context, the specific verse, and the conjunction “for” do not show it. For similar uses of the word “generation” see Psalm 49:19; 109:13; Proverbs 27:24; Matt 1:1. The spiritual seed or generation of Jesus is very great, but not seen blinded Jews (Psalm 22:30; 45:16-17; Hebrews 2:13; Revelation 7:9). And all believers we are part of it. And this travesty of a trial and torturous death were not chance or fate, but by God’s glorious design for the payment of our sins.

Later Isaiah 53:9.....
 
@DavidTree @civic

Isaiah 53:6​

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”

Us all.... Then why do you act like it was only for you and those you approve of?

More of that KJVOist nonsense.

The word isn't "laid". In Hebrew it is פָּגַע and it doesn't mean "to lay upon". In Greek it is παραδίδωμι and simply means "to deliver up".

The Hebrew pedigree for פָּגַע isn't very well understood. It is much like Yeshua vs Yahoshua. The usage of פָּגַע in the Torah is "entreat"

Keep giving your allegiance and loyalty to British Empire and your preferred king of "Great Britain" .... "King Jimmy". I hope you know the English Parliament didn't like him very well... Hence they used the reference "King Jimmy" because he was Scottish.
 
@DavidTree @civic

Isaiah 53:7

“He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.”

Christ allowed US to judge Him. That is why "He opened not His mouth".

Luk 22:63 And the men that held Jesus mocked him, and smote him.
Luk 22:64 And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face, and asked him, saying, Prophesy, who is it that smote thee?
Luk 22:65 And many other things blasphemously spake they against him.

BTW. Was it lamb to the slaughter or sheep before shearers?

Act 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

I've been asking KJVOist this for many years. Steven Avery loves to say the NT corrects the OT. At least he admits it is different.

To you, is there a difference here? So much for KJVOism......

In Hebrew there are distinct words for sheep and lamb. They're not the same. The NT matches the Greek OT perfectly here.
 
@DavidTree @civic

Isaiah 53:8​

“He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.”

Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Several issues here in the KJV. Matthew deals with prophecy of this verse specifically

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

The Greek source in Codex Alexandrinus reads "He was led to death because of the acts of lawlessness of my people." which agrees with the preceding
 
@DavidTree @civic
Jesus was indeed stricken according to God's will by using wicked and ungodly men to carry out his eternal purposes.

This is your empty claim. I draw attention to this particular appeal because it charges God with desiring the death of His Son.

In verse #10 (when you get there, you're going to prove what I say is true).

So go ahead. Get there faster. You're bloviating. That word isn't found in the KJV (bloviating) but you can know what it means if you choose to use something other than the KJV....

The KJV does speak of....

Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

 
Relative to prophecy, I would say it is dealing with those at the Crucifixion but it does deal with the gradual decline of humanity into a cesspool contrary to what God purposed for them.

Lord knows I feel lasting guilt and regret for what I've done and what I haven't done. I see sin in so many things. I bet I see sin in more things than you actually do.

The best argument your position has is found in the KJV in verse 11.

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Which is a very bad translation. I can't say that to @Red Baker for he is basically a KJVOist that believes God has preserved the Scriptures in the Early Modern English of his generation.

The issue is even deeper than the extant Masoretic Text from the 9th century. We can discuss it deeper but I'm not sure you really want to know. It will do me no good to try to convince you of this if you're not wanting to really know the truth. If you're satisfied with what you believe, then so be it. We can just argue about it.
Relative to prophecy, I would say it is dealing with those at the Crucifixion
Dear Brother = Isaiah 53 pronounces God's Judgement of sin upon "we" and "us"

This includes the Prophet Isaiah, the Jewish people at that time, then Forward to "us" Today and also
Back to the Future in Genesis beginning with Adam & Eve and all who come forth from them
 
...or maybe you're fighting for the devil's team all this time...
projecting- it looks like you can take your false gospel to another place now. As you said to us goodbye. Now its an official goodbye from our @Administrator. This time I'm not butting in or defending you. Those days are long gone now. There have been way to many second, third, fourth, fifth chances. I'm over it now. The leopard never changes its spots. This holds true in this situation. I wish you no harm but when you don't get your way and are challenged with your beliefs you resort to belittling the forum, causing much division and making personal attacks on our moderators and myself.

There are many here who hold to non orthodox christian beliefs that never attack us like you have dome so many times. And we are done with it and I support our teams decision.

This forum is for friendly discussions and to respect those we disagree with. Let the Holy Spirit convict others who we disagree with doctrinally.

We are to love those who are our enemies and pray for them, not ridicule and belittle them. The Golden Rule is our standard.


hope this helps !!!
 
Dear Brother = Isaiah 53 pronounces God's Judgement of sin upon "we" and "us"

This includes the Prophet Isaiah, the Jewish people at that time, then Forward to "us" Today and also
Back to the Future in Genesis beginning with Adam & Eve and all who come forth from them
I find it offensive to believe that Christ dying for us isn't enough. You and these others resisting the truth, insist it had to be much much more than death.
Death isn't enough for you.

Why do you believe death isn't enough? Does it make you feel better the more Christ suffers for you? I honestly believe you get more comfort from Christ dying for you the more you believe He suffered.
 
I find it offensive to believe that Christ dying for us isn't enough. You and these others resisting the truth, insist it had to be much much more than death.
Death isn't enough for you.

Why do you believe death isn't enough? Does it make you feel better the more Christ suffers for you? I honestly believe you get more comfort from Christ dying for you the more you believe He suffered.
I find it offensive to believe that Christ dying for us isn't enough.
Please explain how you came to this conclusion.
 
@praise_yeshua
This is your empty claim. I draw attention to this particular appeal because it charges God with desiring the death of His Son.
Take the verses I use and what I have said and then prove me wrong, otherwise, I'm not responding to your ill spirit that you are displaying in your posit back to me, there's no profit in doing so.
You're about as shallow as a infant kiddie pool.
If you believe this then the correct/godly way of proving me wrong is to take the words that I used in expounding Isaiah 53 (and post before then) and prove me wrong.

Concerning the Independent Baptist, I left them many years ago, (fifty years) almost as soon as I became part of them, that does not mean that everyone of them are not children of God, I believe there are some very sincere believers among them, even if I disagree with them on almost everything, especially on soteriology and eschatology.
 
Back
Top Bottom