propitiation

[brightfame52]

@TibiasDad

Wrath is not shown until judgement day.

A very foolish and unlearned statement, for its written so plainly Rom 1:18

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Is Christ being their propitiation ? NO

 

[brightfame52]

1 Jn 2:1-2

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

This portion of holy writ has like its counterpart Jn 3:16 been so mishandled by religionists and frankly has denied what propitiation is. It by no means applies to everyone without exception, for it cant, since Gods wrath is upon many Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The wrath of God here is abiding[present tense] on these individuals, which contradicts the truth of propitiation, which appeases Gods anger or wrath, by the sacrifice of Christ !

But scripture interprets scripture in this matter, and the very same writer gives us understanding here in Jn 11:49-52

49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

The words of this high priest is very instructive:

The words "He should die for" harmonizes Johns words in 1 Jn 2 "He is the propitiation for" This aids us in showing a scriptural image of who Christ was a propitiation for in 1 Jn 2:2 by correlating " He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world ! " with what is written in Jn 11:51-52

he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

So in making this correlation in scripture explaining scripture , we should see definitely that the whole world encompass the Children of God in national Israel and those among the gentiles scattered abroad. So using scripture to provide meaning to scripture, the whole world denotes the children of God amongst the nation of israel and the children of God amongst the other nations.

His death should gather together in one, similar to what Paul writes Eph 2:16

And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

And Jesus own words Jn 10:16

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

 

[TibiasDad]

@TibiasDad



A very foolish and unlearned statement, for its written so plainly Rom 1:18

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Is Christ being their propitiation ? NO

What is the object of God’s wrath? “…all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men” ; in other words, he hates the sin, not the man sinning. The man he loves, and seeks his redemption. Sinning separates us from his love.

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

What is the object of God’s wrath? “…all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men” ; in other words, he hates the sin, not the man sinning. The man he loves, and seeks his redemption. Sinning separates us from his love.

Doug

What is the object of Gods wrath ? MEN

 

[TibiasDad]

What is the object of Gods wrath ? MEN

No, the unrighteousness of men! The sinful deeds! He wants to save men!

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

No, the unrighteousness of men! The sinful deeds! He wants to save men!

Doug

Same thing, so in punishment God gives them up to reprobate mind, He judges them the person which is part of His wrath against them Rom 1:18-24

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

 

[TibiasDad]

Same thing, so in punishment God gives them up to reprobate mind, He judges them the person which is part of His wrath against them Rom 1:18-24

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

The logical rhetorical query then is ‘why’…it’s because

19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

And this was the behavior that followed…

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore… because they (mankind as a species) acted in this way…

…God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Furthermore…

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts.

God allowed them to be consumed by their choices to ignore what we knew to be true. Essentially, God said “If this is what you want, you got it!”

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

For Christ cant be the propitiation of all men w/o exception as is forced upon 1 Jn 2:2 simply because His wrath is upon the children of disobedience Eph 5:6

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

The word cometh is in the present tense, Gods wrath upon them is in operation now, so How is Christ being their propitation now ? He is not, that's how.

 

[TibiasDad]

For Christ cant be the propitiation of all men w/o exception as is forced upon 1 Jn 2:2 simply because His wrath is upon the children of disobedience Eph 5:6

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

The word cometh is in the present tense, Gods wrath upon them is in operation now, so How is Christ being their propitation now ? He is not, that's how.

It is present tense in the sense of an active process. Several translations render it “is coming” indicating the act of coming is presently happening, but not completed. It is in process.
In Greek, completed action is expressed by the Aorist or Perfect tenses. The Imperfect tense shows continuous action in the past and the Present tense shows continuous action in the present moment of time or circumstance. Wrath is coming to those who are disobedient and its completion is certain!

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

It is present tense in the sense of an active process. Several translations render it “is coming” indicating the act of coming is presently happening, but not completed. It is in process.
In Greek, completed action is expressed by the Aorist or Perfect tenses. The Imperfect tense shows continuous action in the past and the Present tense shows continuous action in the present moment of time or circumstance. Wrath is coming to those who are disobedient and its completion is certain!

Doug

You still rejecting truth

 

[TibiasDad]

You still rejecting truth

Take a course in Greek and get back to me. Present tense does not mean a completed action, but an ongoing one at that particular moment.

Doug

You might consider a course in English as well; it’s “You’re still rejecting truth.”

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

Take a course in Greek and get back to me. Present tense does not mean a completed action, but an ongoing one at that particular moment.

Doug

You might consider a course in English as well; it’s “You’re still rejecting truth.”

Doug

Also the non elect living now in unbelief are presently under Gods wrath Jn 3:36

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The word abideth menō is a present tense indicative, so its occurring in actual time and its a statement of fact.

So its not even remotely possible for Christ to be their propitiation as He is here 1 Jn 2:2

 

[TibiasDad]

Also the non elect living now in unbelief are presently under Gods wrath Jn 3:36

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The word abideth menō is a present tense indicative, so its occurring in actual time and its a statement of fact.

So its not even remotely possible for Christ to be their propitiation as He is here 1 Jn 2:2

All who believed were once unbelievers and the wrath of God was on us too at that time. Nothing in this verse says that unbelievers cannot become believers.

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

All who believed were once unbelievers and the wrath of God was on us too at that time. Nothing in this verse says that unbelievers cannot become believers.

Doug

You cant be under Gods wrath while a unbeliever if Christ died for you and is your propitiaion. Besides you claim Gods wrath isn't on anyone presently, its all future.

 

[TibiasDad]

You cant be under Gods wrath while an unbeliever if Christ died for you and is your propitiaion. Besides you claim Gods wrath isn't on anyone presently, its all future.

We are, as unbelievers, in danger of wrath which is coming, and that coming is certain, so we can speak of it as a present tense reality. The ultimate wrath of God is yet to come, but it is presently looming over all who are yet to believe.

From a pragmatic point of view, an honest Calvinist preacher should preach that ‘some here today are doomed, for God has not chosen you to salvation, but some here have been chosen and you will be saved for God has chosen to love you and sent his Son to die for your sins alone!”

But that is not how they preach: they preach as if all could be saved, but they know that isn’t true, justifying it by asserting their ignorance of whom God has chosen for what purpose.

Frankly, I find that kind of whitewashing deceptive preaching. I can preach that God loves and will save anyone who believes, and that God is not willing that anyone perish, but that they all might repent and be saved! You cannot honestly preach that and hold to your theology.


Doug

 

[brightfame52]

We are, as unbelievers, in danger of wrath which is coming, and that coming is certain, so we can speak of it as a present tense reality. The ultimate wrath of God is yet to come, but it is presently looming over all who are yet to believe.

From a pragmatic point of view, an honest Calvinist preacher should preach that ‘some here today are doomed, for God has not chosen you to salvation, but some here have been chosen and you will be saved for God has chosen to love you and sent his Son to die for your sins alone!”

But that is not how they preach: they preach as if all could be saved, but they know that isn’t true, justifying it by asserting their ignorance of whom God has chosen for what purpose.

Frankly, I find that kind of whitewashing deceptive preaching. I can preach that God loves and will save anyone who believes, and that God is not willing that anyone perish, but that they all might repent and be saved! You cannot honestly preach that and hold to your theology.


Doug

Nobody Christ died for are under Gods wrath while they are unbelievers, in fact they are reconciled to God while being unbelieving enemies Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we[believers] were enemies[unbelievers], we were reconciled[past tense] to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Were enemies in the greek is in the present tense, so while they were unbelievers, they were reconciled [past tense] to God by His death.

Now how in the world are they as enemies/unbelievers under Gods wrath at the same time they are reconciled to God ? Christ in His death is their propitiation !

 

[civic]

Eisegesis!

Rom 3:23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith.

The same “all” who have sinned, are the same “all” that are justified. The work has been done; the only question is ‘do we believe it?’

Doug

Exactly brother

 

[civic]

We are, as unbelievers, in danger of wrath which is coming, and that coming is certain, so we can speak of it as a present tense reality. The ultimate wrath of God is yet to come, but it is presently looming over all who are yet to believe.

From a pragmatic point of view, an honest Calvinist preacher should preach that ‘some here today are doomed, for God has not chosen you to salvation, but some here have been chosen and you will be saved for God has chosen to love you and sent his Son to die for your sins alone!”

But that is not how they preach: they preach as if all could be saved, but they know that isn’t true, justifying it by asserting their ignorance of whom God has chosen for what purpose.

Frankly, I find that kind of whitewashing deceptive preaching. I can preach that God loves and will save anyone who believes, and that God is not willing that anyone perish, but that they all might repent and be saved! You cannot honestly preach that and hold to your theology.


Doug

An oxymoron

 

[TibiasDad]

Nobody Christ died for are under Gods wrath while they are unbelievers, in fact they are reconciled to God while being unbelieving enemies Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we[believers] were enemies[unbelievers], we were reconciled[past tense] to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Were enemies in the greek is in the present tense, so while they were unbelievers, they were reconciled [past tense] to God by His death.

Now how in the world are they as enemies/unbelievers under Gods wrath at the same time they are reconciled to God ? Christ in His death is their propitiation !

Why do you think I have a problem with this? It is the present tense at a point in the past, which is established by κατηλλάγημεν, an Aorist verb indicating a finished act prior to the present moment. That is why it says (and you said too) we “were reconciled” when we were unbelievers.

Again, God is reconciled to the world, not the world to God! God, because of Christ, has a way to be gracious to us. He can now look at us with grace because the penalty of law has been satisfied by Christ. God can look at every single one of us in love because of Christ.

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

Why do you think I have a problem with this? It is the present tense at a point in the past, which is established by κατηλλάγημεν, an Aorist verb indicating a finished act prior to the present moment. That is why it says (and you said too) we “were reconciled” when we were unbelievers.

Again, God is reconciled to the world, not the world to God! God, because of Christ, has a way to be gracious to us. He can now look at us with grace because the penalty of law has been satisfied by Christ. God can look at every single one of us in love because of Christ.

Doug

You just cant receive the truth. The elect, for whom Christ died, are reconciled to God by His death even while they are enemies against God. So even while in unbelief they are not condemned, they are not under Gods wrath. Others the non elect are not reconciled to God as unbelievers, they are already condemned[by the law] and the wrath of God abides on them,and they shall NEVER SEE LIFE eternal salvation Jn 3:18,36