FreeInChrist
Active Member
To the pharisees, as I said
Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
brightfame52
Active Member
They have no choice, God raised up Christ to give repentance to elect israel along with forgivenss of sins. Salvation isnt about what men want but what God wanted for His Glory Acts 5:31
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins
Also the word repentance metanoia means :
change of mind, repentance,
So repentance brings change of mind, whereas where one may have been hostile towards Christ and the things of God, they are given a change of mind. Like how saul was hostile towards Jesus and the church, but when Christ gave him repentance, he had a change of mind Acts 9:1-6
Thats the power of Christ the risen Saviour and Prince giving repentance to an elect vessel of mercy
brightfame52
Active Member
Doesn't matter, its all the vessels of wrath, the seed of the serpent. The seed of the serpent isnt limited to them pharisees
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Your view has several biblical problems. And as brief as I can list them here they are.........
1. Acts 5:31 says Christ “gives repentance,” not forces it.
God “commands all men everywhere to repent” (Acts 17:30).
You don’t command what you’ve already irresistibly caused.
2.People resist God.
“You do always resist the Holy Ghost” (Acts 7:51).
Irresistible grace can’t be resisted.
3. Ethnic Israel wasn’t automatically saved.
“They are not all Israel, which are of Israel” (Rom 9:6).
Only “a remnant shall be saved” (Rom 9:27).
So election clearly isn’t guaranteed salvation.
4. Romans 11 completely contradicts predestination.
Branches were broken off because of unbelief (11:20).
Gentiles stand by faith (11:20).
Both can be cut off (11:21–22).
Broken branches can be grafted in again (11:23).
None of that fits fixed, predetermined destinies.
If salvation were forced: no resistance , no falling away , no warnings , no grafting. Yet Scripture shows all of those.
God grants repentance and calls people to respond. He does not program people like robots.
That is not “my interpretation.” That is simply what the text says.
brightfame52
Active Member
Thats the elect who Christ gives repentance. They are everywhere instead of just in israel.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
God “commands all men everywhere to repent” (Acts 17:30).
You don’t command what you’ve already irresistibly caused.
brightfame52
Active Member
Again that's the elect and they will repent
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Yes, because under your theological views they have no option. They basically have to.
brightfame52
Active Member
No they dont have any choice, God is commanding it which causes it, besides that they already forgiven and Justified. Jesus gave them both Acts 5:31
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
brightfame52
Active Member
When God created the world and made men He had already purposed that a mass of people would go to hell and destruction for their wickedness, that they were never included with them He had purposed to save in Christ as these were 2 Tim 1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
They were excluded from this Gods own purpose and Grace in Christ Jesus before the world began!
They are called the reprobate, the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction Rom 9:22
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
The wicked Prov 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Job 21:30
That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought [carried or borne] forth to the day of wrath.
Please understand this sobering truth about the God of the scripture that God purposely made these people vessels of wrath !9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
They were excluded from this Gods own purpose and Grace in Christ Jesus before the world began!
They are called the reprobate, the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction Rom 9:22
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
The wicked Prov 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Job 21:30
That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought [carried or borne] forth to the day of wrath.
Please understand this sobering truth about the God of the scripture that God purposely made these people vessels of wrath !9
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Why do YOU DELIBERATELY CUT THINGS SHORT........? Make sure to keep all your posted verses as in for your bible.
The question in vs 22 is What if God endured much longsuffering the vessels of wrath?
This answers that question..... From Bible Hub..... a solid predestined believing organization.... Believing definition and Concept of Predestination Predestination, at its core, refers to God's eternal purpose and foreknowledge concerning the destiny of His creation, particularly humankind. The Bible presents God as knowing and ordaining events beforehand. (Your beliefs)
Why would God create people knowing they would end up in Hell? The Divine Purpose in CreationGod’s creation of humanity is presented throughout Scripture as an intentional act of love and purpose. “So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them” (Genesis 1:27). Humanity’s unique position in bearing God’s image (the Imago Dei) speaks to dignity, intelligence, moral capacity, and the ability to relate to the Creator. Yet this creation, by definition, includes the capacity to choose between good and evil. The knowledge that some would forsake Him does not negate His purposeful act of creation, but rather sets the stage for genuine, freely given worship and love. God’s Omniscience and Human Responsibility Scripture consistently affirms that God knows all things (1 John 3:20). This includes the future choices of individuals. The tension arises when we consider why a loving Creator would bring into existence persons He knows will ultimately reject Him. A key point is understanding that God’s foreknowledge does not necessitate a coercion of human decisions. Rather, human beings remain responsible for their choices. • Foreknowledge Affirmed: “Known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the world” (Acts 15:18). • Freedom of Choice Preserved: God’s knowledge does not remove genuine human responsibility; instead, it underscores the depth of His mercy in offering salvation despite knowing how some will respond. Free Will and Love Free will is crucial to the biblical depiction of authentic love. Love is meaningful only if it is freely offered rather than compelled. Throughout Scripture, God presents humanity with choices: “Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve” (Joshua 24:15). A forced, automatic obedience would undermine the nature of love and the dignity imbued by God’s image in humanity. It is in this light that the possibility of rejecting God-and thus separating oneself from Him-is part of a divinely established framework granting creatures the real capacity to embrace or refuse their Creator. God’s Desire for All to Be Saved Although some eventually end up in Hell, it is not God’s desire for anyone to perish: “The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise…He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9). Scripture testifies that God “wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4). This reveals the divine heart toward humanity, emphasizing that individuals who end up in Hell do so because of willful, persistent rejection of God’s grace. The Relationship Between Justice and Mercy Key to this topic is balancing divine love and divine justice. Sin, as described in Romans 3:23, is a universal reality (“all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”), and its consequence is separation from the Holy God (Romans 6:23). God’s justice requires sin to be dealt with, while His mercy provides a path of redemption through Christ’s sacrifice. Those who accept this sacrifice are reconciled to God; those who reject it remain outside His forgiveness. • Justice: “He will repay each one according to his deeds…” (Romans 2:6). • Mercy: “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son…” (John 3:16). Hell as a Consequence, Not a Design Scripture describes Hell as the ultimate separation from God. It is the final confirmation of the deep chasm between God’s holiness and unrepentant sin. Revelation 20:15 states: “And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” Hell is not a place God designed with delight for humanity; rather, it is the place for those who persist in rejecting His grace. Human Choice and Divine Sovereignty in Harmony Although our finite minds wrestle with the interplay of divine sovereignty and human freedom, Scripture demonstrates that both are realities that function in full harmony. Ephesians 1:4-5 speaks of God’s choice of believers “before the foundation of the world,” while John 3:16 calls “whoever believes” to receive eternal life. These fail to conflict when we view them through the lens of God’s infinite knowledge and moral governance, wherein He sovereignly creates a world in which human decisions truly matter. Philosophical Perspectives and Historical/Theological Witness Historically, Christian theologians have aligned in emphasizing both God’s omniscience and the culpability of human decisions (examples include Augustine in his Confessions; Aquinas in Summa Theologica). Philosophical arguments-including those from Alvin Plantinga-demonstrate that a world with free will is of greater value than one without it, precisely because it allows for genuine love and moral responsibility. Archaeological and Historical Support for Scriptural Authority Though the question is primarily philosophical, numerous archaeological and manuscript findings lend credibility to Scripture’s narratives, demonstrating consistency and reliability: • The Dead Sea Scrolls confirm the textual faithfulness of the Old Testament. • Excavations at biblical sites (like Jericho and Hazor) provide historical confirmations of events described in biblical accounts. • New Testament manuscript evidence (including papyri like P52 and Codex Sinaiticus) underscores the early circulation and fidelity of the Gospels and epistles. These evidences bolster confidence in the Bible’s witness about God’s character and His desire that no one be lost but that all may come to salvation. Practical Perspectives on God’s Knowledge and Our Response From a behavioral standpoint, individuals grapple with the reality of suffering and evil in the world. Yet the biblical narrative reassures us that God’s ultimate purpose is to redeem all who will come to Him by faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9). He did not create humanity to populate Hell; rather, He created us for communion with Him, which is reflected in accounts of miracles, both ancient and modern, testifying to divine intervention and confirming that God actively seeks human hearts. The Hope of Redemption and God’s Glory Even knowing that some would ultimately choose defiance, God deemed creation worthwhile, because through it countless souls would experience eternal life and display His glory. “For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good purpose” (Philippians 2:13). The question highlights the depth of divine love: He was willing to bear the cost of rejection for the sake of all who would freely choose His grace. Conclusion: Redeeming Purpose and Eternal Choice Scripture as a whole reveals a Creator who is both loving and just, giving life and opportunity for repentance to every person. The possibility of Hell underscores the seriousness of sin and the sincerity of free will. Yet the overarching message remains one of hope: God provides a path of redemption and yearns for humanity to choose life in Christ. “Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God…” (1 Peter 3:18). This heartbeat of the gospel is the ultimate answer. Rather than allowing foreknowledge of eternal separation to nullify creation, God in His wisdom made a way for salvation through the cross and resurrection, extending the invitation of eternal life to every human being who will believe. |
brightfame52
Active Member
I know what it is, and you cut it short, for it reads Rom 9:22
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
FreeInChrist
Active Member
What if God did endure with much longsuffering? Verse 22 is a question, not a statement.
brightfame52
Active Member
I know what it is
FreeInChrist
Active Member
But do you know its implications?
brightfame52
Active Member
Duh read my posts
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