Predestination and Determinism

praise_yeshua said:
Is it okay if I argue the point with you for a minute? :)

I can think of a half dozen events recorded in the Scriptures that are contrary to the words from this particular English translation....

Generally speech, your approach is correct. However, there are times when it is not. Allowing a "weaker brother" to control the Truth isn't acceptable. I don't mind (and I have/do) deal differently with someone that is trying to learn. However, tolerating the nonsense of someone who claims maturity and understanding isn't acceptable. Those people should be not only resisted but rebuked when necessary. They shouldn't be allowed to dominate a narrative contrary to the Truth of God.

As far as "evil for evil", I don't see that I have done such. Please point it out specifically and I will reconsider.
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I agree and I think that's one of the jobs the holy spirit accomplishes for us. If we abide in Christ and listen to the holy spirit will know the truth. What amazes me is how many people fall for all the different cults that are out there. I'm talking about the real serious cults were they molest little children and split up marriages and the leader claims that he's Jesus.

Where is my post goes in the evil for evil comment I was speaking in general terms not specific. And I wasn't talking about you. But that right there shows you how easy it is for us to misinterpret each other especially when our feelings and our emotions get involved.
 
Presby02 said:
So because He chose me it was arbitrary? LOL There is dome sound reasoning.

I have no idea why God chose you or I. Because you don't know does not mean it was arbitrary or meritorious.

Did He choose you because you believed? Sounds meritorious
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only if you assume contrary to Paul there is merit in faith

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 4:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
 
spurgeon said:
It's in the bible deal with it. Or forever "hold it". Are we having dialogue yet? You know it's fine with me if you're not real fond of Calvinism. And you can say whatever you like about Calvinism. But don't take cheap shots and expect anyone to take you seriously. It's not personal.
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I asked a simple question. If it offends you, then it offends you. I chose the question for a reason. You claim that everything is preordained. Which is unbelievable at "face value". I do use the bathroom. I expect everyone does. In fact, Jesus talked about using the bathroom. The word used was "draught" in the early modern English.

Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

So pardon me if I do something Jesus did.

No one can possibly believe that God has preordained "bowel movements". However, feel free to make the case. Please provide evidence that "bowel movements" are preordained... .and "held together by the very power of God".....

spurgeon said:
Here's what the rules say. https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-rules.47/


Our members desire to contribute in a positive and loving manner so that this Forum will display the gracious love of God. The above motto on our forum is for the benefit of this community to have a safe place where all faiths and people are welcomed to ask questions, receive answers and express their views freely without hinderance or concern of retaliation. We value your religious freedoms of expression and ideas.
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I'm not an admin and I don't have power to restrict anything here. I am trying to help you and others. If you want to believe that God preordains bowel movements than I don't know if I can help you. However, I will rightfully recognize the unbelievable nature of such claims.
 
praise_yeshua said:
Has your friend ever sharpened iron? It is violent act that would rip flesh from bone. Forming a edge to a blade requires removing iron.



The weapons of our warfare are mighty through God to the pulling down of "strongholds".



I look forward to the zoom calls but I remain anonymous because I have been openly attacked too many times in my life. Most of it because of theology. Not that I'm afraid. I'm not. I avoid it. I can assure that I'm no different..... In fact,

2Co 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

I "wear" who I am at the very tip of my lips.
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It's nice to know a little bit about someone. It makes it a lot easier to respect them. As far as being attacked for a theology I think that's up to us. They've given us the rules that helps us avoid that. All we have to do is follow them. I don't think we need to run to a moderator every time someone starts to get out of line pointed out to him and if they can't knock it off put them on ignore.

You seem like a good dude to me, And you won't have to worry about me attacking you. I can't go for that.
 
As far as iron sharpening iron in real life you use a stone to sharpen the iron. And you do it very gently and precisely you hold the blade at a 32° angle and draw it across the stone. When you can hold up a piece of no put paper by your thumb and index finger put the blade of the knife at the top and pull down if it slices the paper into you got to sharp knife.

So the way I would look at that as far as interaction with other believers is I would do it gently and precisely.
 
Foghorn said:
I agree and I think that's one of the jobs the holy spirit accomplishes for us. If we abide in Christ and listen to the holy spirit will know the truth. What amazes me is how many people fall for all the different cults that are out there. I'm talking about the real serious cults were they molest little children and split up marriages and the leader claims that he's Jesus.

Where is my post goes in the evil for evil comment I was speaking in general terms not specific. And I wasn't talking about you. But that right there shows you how easy it is for us to misinterpret each other especially when our feelings and our emotions get involved.
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I'll explain how destructive I believe Calvinism is....

I believe Jesus made it clear that men's preaching/teaching can prevent others from entering heaven.

Mat 23:13 “But woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You keep locking people out of the kingdom of heaven! For you neither enter nor permit those trying to enter to go in.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Calvinism does just that by telling others that only a few can be saved. Calvinism does this by telling others to "WAIT"....that God must draw you. .....

When God has already done everything necessary for a person to be saved through Christ's work in the Atonement. The message of the Gospel is NOW....

2Co 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
 
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TomL said:
only if you assume contrary to Paul there is merit in faith

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 4:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
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If it's your faith and it's not a gift of God then where does it come from?
 
Foghorn said:
It's nice to know a little bit about someone. It makes it a lot easier to respect them. As far as being attacked for a theology I think that's up to us. They've given us the rules that helps us avoid that. All we have to do is follow them. I don't think we need to run to a moderator every time someone starts to get out of line pointed out to him and if they can't knock it off put them on ignore.

You seem like a good dude to me, And you won't have to worry about me attacking you. I can't go for that.
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I've had this one off and on ignore for a long time. I have a person here I consider a friend. We agree on many things except Calvinism. I take this one off and on ignore because he is a "Calvinist comrade" of my friend. I must admit that I get aggravated over such because of what it means to me.
 
praise_yeshua said:
I asked a simple question. If it offends you, then it offends you. I chose the question for a reason. You claim that everything is preordained. Which is unbelievable at "face value". I do use the bathroom. I expect everyone does. In fact, Jesus talked about using the bathroom. The word used was "draught" in the early modern English.

Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

So pardon me if I do something Jesus did.

No one can possibly believe that God has preordained "bowel movements". However, feel free to make the case. Please provide evidence that "bowel movements" are preordained... .and "held together by the very power of God".....



I'm not an admin and I don't have power to restrict anything here. I am trying to help you and others. If you want to believe that God preordains bowel movements than I don't know if I can help you. However, I will rightfully recognize the unbelievable nature of such claims.
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It's all good. Well, except for the bowel movement part anyway. 🤣 I'm really cracking myself up with this one. If we're constipated it must be predestined. So I think there's a lot more Calvinist on this board than any of us realized. We may have to start wearing rubber boots In case it starts getting really deep. But I'll tell you this right now I'm not buying hip waders if it get that deep I'm leaving.
 
Foghorn said:
As far as iron sharpening iron in real life you use a stone to sharpen the iron. And you do it very gently and precisely you hold the blade at a 32° angle and draw it across the stone. When you can hold up a piece of no put paper by your thumb and index finger put the blade of the knife at the top and pull down if it slices the paper into you got to sharp knife.

So the way I would look at that as far as interaction with other believers is I would do it gently and precisely.
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I believe you're describing re-sharpening a knife that already has an edge. :)

Reforming an edge is violent and begins with a very abrasive "stone".

Interestingly. Most iron gets trapped alone with other elements and must be refined before it can ever become a sharp tool. This takes massive amounts of heat. The best iron in the world comes from Iron trapped in sand in Japan. The Japanese carve out bends in rivers to trap the iron alone with sand. The heat used along with carbon help strengthen the iron and remove the impurities. This iron is extraordinarily hard and usually takes diamond infused flat metal bars to sharpen such a hard iron.

32 degrees is a sharp angle and will make the edge last longer.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
Interesting.
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You really are "grasping" for a complaint.

Those at Berea didn't have a problem with questioning the apostles. Everything is open to questioning. The DNS name and Site Description does fits well given the circumstances.

"Only a Calvinist" could possibly demand a website change their DNS name and description.... I mean the world does really revolve around them.....

My arguments are my arguments. The same with you. Management is tolerant of all of us. I know you realize how Calvinists have treated you in the past. There are very few of them that will tolerate anything contrary to what they believe.
 
TomL said:
from within man

God created man with an ability for faith, but how he uses it is up to him
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  1. Faith does not originate from within us naturally. We are not born with an innate ability to believe. 12
  2. Faith is a gift from God, not something we can muster up through our own willpower or effort. 124
  3. The Bible teaches that faith comes through hearing the word of Christ. It is imparted to us as we hear and respond to the gospel message. 1
  4. Jesus is described as the "Author" or "Originator" of our faith. He is the one who inaugurates and pioneers the path of faith in our lives. 1
  5. While we have a responsibility to exercise and respond in faith, the source and foundation of that faith is God Himself. It is not something that originates from us independently. 14
So in summary, if faith does not come from God as a gift, then it does not truly originate from the individual either. Faith is not a human product, but a divine enablement that allows us to trust and believe. The Bible presents faith as something that is granted to us by God, not something we generate on our own. The responsibility is ours to respond, but the source of faith is God.

Romans 10:17: "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." This verse explicitly states that faith originates from hearing the message about Christ.

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." This passage highlights that faith is a gift from God, emphasizing the role of grace in salvation.

Ephesians 2:5, 16: "Even when we were dead in our transgressions, the divine life gave us a new life, and the gift of faith was given to us through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." This verse further underscores that faith is a gift from God, given through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 12:2: "Looking away unto Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith." This verse emphasizes Jesus as the originator and perfecter of our faith, indicating that faith comes from Him.

2 Peter 1:1: "To those who have been allotted faith equally precious as ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ." This passage highlights that faith is allotted to believers by God, emphasizing its divine origin.
 
atpollard said:
That is NOT what 1 Corinthians 1:21 says, is it?
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Correct

The context of 1 Corinthians 1:21 is a discussion about the nature of salvation and the means by which God chose to save humanity. The verse states that the world, despite its wisdom, did not know God. However, God chose to save those who believe through the foolishness of preaching. This verse highlights the contrast between human wisdom and God's wisdom, emphasizing that salvation comes not through human intellect or achievements but through the message of the gospel, which may seem foolish to the world but is the means by which God saves those who believe.
 
Johann said:
The Bible teaches that faith comes through hearing the word of Christ. It is imparted to us as we hear and respond to the gospel message.
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The Bible teaches that faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes by the word of Christ/God (depending on translation). That's not the same thing as faith comes by hearing the word of Christ.
 

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