Rockson
Well-known member
I'm curious PY. In what way do you believe in relativity. So you believe there is a change when it comes to atomic clocks and time dilation? I have some thoughts which spin off of that.
Open Panel Discussion - Open Theism
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Frank Russell
Well-known member
Example of corruption of time.
The calendar needed to be changed from 360 days to 365. Since there's billions of years in the span of the universe according to said science, this implies other such corruptions to the measurement of time have also occurred over a longer period of time.
Furthermore, we probably should have a science discussion forum since when I login to "berean apologetics ministry"I tend to look at the bible in terms of solutions.
If you want to "science" it, that's okay - but don't expect much success in convincing me of anything since people who prove with science come up with all sorts of ideas, and they don't have to agree. (and the reasons seem all arbitrary and based on what the person speaking thinks the answer is so long as they claim to have a science background) The phenomenon of multiple opinions is worse than when people try to prove things with just the bible alone.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Science is observation and experience. Many claims concerning knowing various aspects of our existence are conjecture. I stick to observation and experimentation.
Calendars are really an issue relative to variant choices among mankind. The historical Hebrew calendar is a lunar calendar with a leap month. Interesting study if you like to check it out for yourself.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I would like to hear your thoughts. I really would.I'm curious PY. In what way do you believe in relativity. So you believe there is a change when it comes to atomic clocks and time dilation? I have some thoughts which spin off of that.
Time dilation - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
I honestly do not believe that measuring time based upon atomic osculation and relative frequency gets us anywhere. I maybe wrong but I didn't see the overall arching need. I believe it might introduce downstream variation that is nothing more than a distraction.
Have you ever seen the Keanu Reeves "The day the earth stood still" version of the movie. I really liked the part where Reeves walks up to the chalk board where Barnhardt is working on the three-body problem and with a couple of chalk marks "blows his mind".
I believe we can get close to many things but it is so difficult for us to not fall in love with our own choices. We are often blinded by just a little success or understanding.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I'll mention an interesting argument you can use against an atheist. There is no celestial explanation for a 7 day week. The Babylonians named the days after celestial bodies but there is no explaination for why only 7. No matter how they try, they can't build a case or limiting those choices of observation to just 7. Only the creation narrative provides an explanation.
Here are some excerpts concerning Foreknowledge and Predetermination from one of the most brilliant Church Fathers of all times, Saint John of Damascus. Note that Predestination and Election both compound the level of complexity of this topic so I won't mention them here.
We ought to understand that while God knows all things beforehand, yet He does not predetermine all things. For He knows beforehand those things that are in our power, but He does not predetermine them. For it is not His will that there should be wickedness nor does He choose to compel virtue. So that predetermination is the work of the divine command based on fore-knowledge. But on the other hand God predetermines those things which are not within our power in accordance with His prescience (foreknowledge). For already God in His prescience has prejudged all things in accordance with His goodness and justice.
Thus, we have a skeletal fundamentals of the interaction between God's Foreknowledge and Predetermination.
It's very interesting that all variations of the term foreknew (προέγνω) have to do with a close bi-directional synergistic relationship with God. Whether it's Christ, sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, or His elect Israel, it is always those who are in a relationship with Him through Christ.
Acts 2:23 this One given to you by the before-determined counsel and foreknowledge (προγνώσει) of God, you have taken and by lawless hands, crucifying Him, you put Him to death;
Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew (προέγνω), He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
Rom 11:2 God did not thrust out His people whom He foreknew (προέγνω). Or do you not know what the Scripture said in Elijah, how he pleaded with God against Israel, saying,
1Pet 1:2 according to the foreknowledge (πρόγνωσιν) of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
1Pet 1:20 indeed having been foreknown (προεγνωσμένου) before the foundation of the world, but revealed in the last times for you,
It also shines a light on the person who was manifesting many "works" through Christ's name and yet he was told that Christ never knew him. But doesn't God have omniscience? Yes, but for God to know someone he must be "in Christ" for him to be known or foreknown by God.
Matt 7:23 And then I will say to them I never knew (ἔγνων) you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!
Another fascinating note is that Christ knows His sheep. That means those sheep are already in a deep relationship with Him, they are already "in Christ" because they already believe "in Christ". In other words, they are not an arbitrary set of elected individuals independent of whether or not they believe "in Christ". They are believers positioned already "in Christ".
One verse I need to reconcile with all this is Jeremiah 1:5. Doesn't it say the following:
Jer 1:5 Before I formed you in the belly I knew (ἐπίσταμαί) you; and before you came forth out of the womb I consecrated you, and I ordained you a prophet to the nations.
Notice that Jer 1:5 uses a different LXX word ἐπίσταμαί. The word ἐπίσταμαί is used more in terms of a superior/superintendent knowing his subject as opposed to the deep relationship of προέγνω. ἐπίσταμαί is unidirectional as opposed to a bidirectional relationship which is what προέγνω is about. ἐπίσταμαί is therefore more of a vocational knowing rather than to be salvifically known by God through Christ.
So where do I fit in between Open Theism and Hard Determination?
I believe that God allows for Free Will but predetermined the Cross meticulously.
Our Free Will is individualistic but we are incorporated into the Body of Christ.
God only knows us "in Christ" when we believe "in Christ" and as such I am not a Fatalist.
I believe God knows everyone in a unidirectional way but has a bidirectional synergistic relationship only with those who are "in Christ".
I'm not sure where that places me in the end.
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civic
Well-known member
I see it very much the same as described above. Good post brother.
Where do you place yourself between Open Theism and Hard Predetermination? I'm asking because you have given Open Theism much more thught than I have.
I'm ok with Dynamic Omniscience but I believe that to get a more fuller picture of what's really going on you have to bring in Election and Predestination into the picture. Calvinists always and we at times tend to conflate Predestination and Election with God's Predetermination. Those 3 terms carry different meanings and we do a big disservice to our understanding of God's plan for us and for mankind when we do that.
civic
Well-known member
I'm not an open theist in any traditional sense. I like the dynamic view that warren presented. I didn't really know that term until watching the video and found myself agreeing with his points throughout the video as if I already believed them and some of which I had never thought them through like he had explained them if that makes sense. For the past few years I have had a big problem with those who conflate foreknowledge with determinism ( election, predestination ) in a reformed pov.
One of the things that stood out which I appreciated from the video with Warren is that he took things right back to Gods nature/attributes. That has been my personal way of thinking for the past several years where everything I currently believe gets filtered through that lens.
And one of the things I have learned is that God never asks us to think or do anything that is opposed to His good/holy nature and character. Since we are created in Gods image and likeness we can see that when we look for example with the fruit of the spirit and those characteristics. When we examine 1 Cor 13 and see what love is and how it acts. Then we look at God becoming man and see God in action and what that looks like in the life of Jesus and how He lived, how He interacted with people, how He treated them, how He extended mercy, grace, forgiveness, kindness, patience, humility etc...... All the attributes of God being lived out before our very own eyes. He removed the "mystery" of God for all mankind to see in the flesh.
And to be honest I just do not see the Calvinists God being lived out in the life of Christ. He pleads with those who rejected Him, wept over them, cared for them, died for them and even on the cross forgave them after they beat Him, mocked Him, insulted Him and finally crucified Him. The great compassion He had for the lost and desire to heal them.
The only ones He came down hard on were the Religious Hypocrites who lorded their faith over others and made them conform to their standards, not Gods standards.
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Yes, I noticed that many Arminians have a foreknowledge = predetermination belief. That's just Calvinism repackaged, at least in that sense.
civic
Well-known member
I added more to the post lol.
Frank Russell
Well-known member
Science has a very useful application in context of the parables for me.
civic
Well-known member
Can you elaborate ? Thanks
Frank Russell
Well-known member
Sure, Jesus spoke about what the kingdom of God was like in parables of creation since, it could not be visualized exactly. The new heaven and earth comes later and so forth.
The more I know about how the creation works, the more God can speak through everyday scenery as a parable.
So science is useful in that regard, for sure.
As far as an actual example, nothing comes to mind at the moment, except for a tree.
A tree has roots, the roots are in soil, the soil has organisms in it.
A tree has branches, the branches have leaves and seeds. Some trees have fruit. Some trees provide oxygen as fruit.
To animals, the seeds are fruit, they eat them.
The parable of faith speaks of a tree that comes from the smallest seed, but grows to provide for an eco system.
The parable of the soil speaks of our hearts being hardened with superficiality, weeded with worry, or productive.
The sermon for today is plant your roots in good nourishing soil. Work that soil of your heart with the tools God provides you.
Grow tall in the faith, by living by faith day by day.
After growing tall in the faith, endure as you become nourishment and shelter for those neighbors around you.
Complete
Well-known member
'For our rejoicing is this,
the testimony of our conscience,
that in simplicity and godly sincerity,
not with fleshly wisdom,
but by the grace of God,
we have had our conversation in the world,
and more abundantly to you-ward.
For we write none other things unto you,
than what ye read or acknowledge;
and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;'
(2 Cor. 1:12-13)
'For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy:
.. for I have espoused you to one husband,
.... that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
But I fear, lest by any means,
.. as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty,
.... so your minds should be corrupted
...... from the simplicity that is in Christ.
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached,
.. or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received,
.... or another gospel, which ye have not accepted,
...... ye might well bear with him.'
(2 Cor. 11:2-4)
* Tread carefully among these 'isms and theories won't you: Don't lose sight of the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus, and become wise in your own conceits, OK.
Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Now risen and glorified
and sat at God's right hand.
Chris
the testimony of our conscience,
that in simplicity and godly sincerity,
not with fleshly wisdom,
but by the grace of God,
we have had our conversation in the world,
and more abundantly to you-ward.
For we write none other things unto you,
than what ye read or acknowledge;
and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;'
(2 Cor. 1:12-13)
'For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy:
.. for I have espoused you to one husband,
.... that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
But I fear, lest by any means,
.. as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty,
.... so your minds should be corrupted
...... from the simplicity that is in Christ.
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached,
.. or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received,
.... or another gospel, which ye have not accepted,
...... ye might well bear with him.'
(2 Cor. 11:2-4)
* Tread carefully among these 'isms and theories won't you: Don't lose sight of the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus, and become wise in your own conceits, OK.
Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Now risen and glorified
and sat at God's right hand.
Chris
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I'm glad you've joined the conversation brother!
I agree with much of what you've said above. I'll give you my penny on Jeremiah. There isn't any "getting around" the fact that what God purposes, is where God, Himself, takes action within His own Character and Divine power to accomplish His will. Which both works against resistance of contrary will and establishes providence. Most Calvinist overstate God's providence. God's providence within humanity is CENTERED completely/entirely around Jesus Christ. However, there are others that share in this purpose wherein they "BRING US" in the timeline to Christ. This is where the remnant prevents humanity being like "Sodom and Gomorrah".
Unless God has left a "seed".... (LXX) Jeremiah was SEED...... Isa 1:9
Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
Notice the word choice again. Seed. Not predetermination of election (that stands only in Jesus Christ alone) but seed.
Jeremiah was seed. God purposed Jeremiah to "intervene" in humanity for the good of God's purpose. Here, you have an irrevocable instance wherein God overpowers all resistance to accomplish His purpose. Which happens periodically throughout the timeline. Which is what God does throughout the "timeline". He intervenes at specific moments in specific ways to keep all of existence "on course".
However, this does not establish that God has purposed evil nor that God has chosen anyone contrary to their own choices.
Some are blessed with being "planted" at specific times to accomplish specific goals. Man working with humanity.
Luk 10:24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
This doesn't predetermine a lack of resistance nor a lack of even failure. God killed disobedient prophet "Iddo" in 1 Kings 13.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I agree. This is where I've had issues with Open Theism for a very long time. I believe it has good qualities but it is flawed when it comes to God's Providence.
I'll be clear where I stand. I have a predictability model myself. I believe time is sequential and God is certainly intelligent enough to be able to predict the future flawlessly given general circumstances.
The next question must be asked, Has God ever been surprised? I have to say clearly, that I believe He has.
I'll let that "sink in" with some of you for a little while to think about. Not that I want to control any conversation. Just sharing freely. At any place, please correct me.
Thanks
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praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Something to consider. Seed is life surrounded by death. Except a seed fall to the ground, it abides alone.
The more I live the more I see creation reflecting the Incarnation from the very beginning.
Have you ever wondered why we hunger for food? Why we hunger for water? In all the possibilities of how man could exist, why...... this way? Science demands this question....
I believe we hunger and thirst because God wanted us to realize what it meant when Jesus stood and said these words....
Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life.
Joh 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Joh 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
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Frank Russell
Well-known member
A good thing to examine with science, the scripture speaks of two types of seed, and both are derived from scripture.
The character of the interpretation is the seed idea, the application becomes the plant that eventually bears fruit.
In the same way people could ask, why does my soul hunger? why does my soul thirst? why am I depressed, neurotic, bloodthirsty, or starved to annihilate everything? The answer is all in the seed, and the soil it is planted in.
So many people in the church fall prey to these hungers and thirsts that are sinful, death bound, and demonic. However, this should not be so.
Thus according to science, what is the genetics of a good seed that feeds everyone to satisfaction? What are it's characteristics? If we had such a seed, perhaps a parable could be more commonly known for emotional and spiritual hungers alike.
And thus with such a seed idea, perhaps some benefit could be reaped by people suffering from afflictions of the soul in the application.
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Rockson
Well-known member
I share your belief but the main plank I'd say of Open Theism is that God does not know all things but he knows only that which is knowable. Or to put it another way It wouldn't be an indication of God not being Almighty for not being in a place that does not exist that being the future.(and that doesn't go to say that he doesn't know some of it that he decided will take place....eg....a divine decree that Israel would go into captivity into Babylon)
That being a judgment God does know that for he already said he's going to do it. So.....outside of some particular decrees according to open theists God only knows that which is knowable. If I'm wrong in that assertion of what they believe I I welcome one's to correct me. So how do you feel about that?
