Open Panel Discussion - Open Theism

[Rockson]

I agree.

This is difficult topic to address because there are so many doctrines this impacts and there is long historical narrative relative to modern theological narratives.

I think through repetition a certain idea has been engrained in most. and that is that God is outside of time. Having reached the point where it's been such people take it as an absolute given that outside time is like bedrock truth.

Also there is this. Sounds like I might be downplaying God's omnipotence which I'm not but here's a statement. Explaining all this might be hard for God to do. Not that he doesn't have the words but our capacity to process somelthing that's of a higher dimension is difficult to do that is to maintain simplicity while he does it. God is committed to that. Keep things in simplicity.

Keep in mind every time Jesus taught he taught in such a way that a simple, uneducated person could understand. He spoke of seeds, farmers, and shepherds speaking of spiritual verities in a way that the uneducated could understand. Here's a rule of thumb. If a message comes from the Father God, Jesus and the Spirit....it will be simple clear and precise.

Does that mean that God is simple? (or like a simpleton) Of course not. He created quantum mechanics and we may begin to understand the mysteries of such things.....Doesn't mean you can or should teach it in Sunday school though. (more could be said)

 

[praise_yeshua]

In the creation God created a firmament to to cover the sky with stars moon and sun.

Prior to that God separated waters so water would be in the heaven and on the earth.

The heaven behind the heaven

This firmament rolls up like a scroll revealing the heaven behind the heaven during the release of the sixth seal in Revelation. People act like the people on the Mountain with Moses afraid of dying, and asking the mountains to bury them.

Jesus teaches us to pray that may God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Because it isn't.

So it can be determined that the place where God is has a different way (or laws of physics) that in the place where we live. However, there is no scripture indicating that God lives outside of time itself ... Some scriptures indicate that time flows more slowly for God than for us, but that's it.

Correct. Duration is different. God is Eternal. However, Eternity is not the absence of time, it is the endless duration of time. We are temporal but Eternal nature does not prohibit any sense of time. It is an endless measure of time. Talk about a real paradox. That is a real paradox. Not some sense of one "bucket" that executes in order and another "bucket" that has no order.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'm not sure why a discussion about Open Theism became about temporality, (thought it was about how God's personality develops as time passes) but was fun to think on anyway.

I brought it up because it is relative. The desire to define "omniscience" as knowing every single aspect of all "time" is what causes branches in the teaching of omniscience relative to various doctrinal positions.

The Calvinist treats omniscience relative to "foreknowledge" because it is a requirement for their doctrinal position.

Open Theism must fit within clearly defined parameters/characteristics. Any theological position should.

I'll skip ahead for a moment........( there is "tons" of details inbetween)

When God says He doesn't remember something anymore. Do you believe Him? Or do you still think God remembers what He claims He doesn't? For example "our sin"?

I'll answer....

I believe exactly what God says. God has done more than just forgive us while still remembering our sin. Our sins are GONE.... in the Atonement of Jesus Christ. GONE.

Now there are many reasons why I say this. One of them being the fact that I've extensive studied the Character and Nature of God. While God is all powerful and there is nothing beyond His ability. We know that God CAN'T lie. It is impossible for GOD TO LIE.

All powerful does not = DO ANYTHING. That is a misnomer. God's character does not allow God to do ANYTHING.

Same way with Omniscience. Omniscience does not = KNOW EVERYTHING. God's character does not allow God to KNOW EVERYTHING.

For example, my sins are GONE.... brother. They are gone.

 

[civic]

Correct. Duration is different. God is Eternal. However, Eternity is not the absence of time, it is the endless duration of time. We are temporal but Eternal nature does not prohibit any sense of time. It is an endless measure time. Talk about a real paradox. That is a real paradox. Not some send of one "bucket" that executes in order and another "bucket" that has no order.

Yes its not an either/or but an and/both. A true paradox

 

[Frank Russell]

Open Theism must fit within clearly defined parameters/characteristics. Any theological position should.

I think labels are created so people subscribing to a label can address said other labels.

In general, all such positions begin with the sentiment "I'm just going with what the bible's saying"

Since everyone reads the bible differently; The statement that any theological position should fit within clearly defined parameters/characteristics tends to only create strawmen that get flamed.

Since the human mind does not work within clearly defined anythings, I disagree that it "should."

 

[Frank Russell]

Correct. Duration is different. God is Eternal. However, Eternity is not the absence of time, it is the endless duration of time. We are temporal but Eternal nature does not prohibit any sense of time. It is an endless measure of time. Talk about a real paradox. That is a real paradox. Not some sense of one "bucket" that executes in order and another "bucket" that has no order.

Time we understand is something with beginning and end.

But from the beginning it was not so.

God's time has no beginning and no end.

The beginning and end aspect appeared because of sin and the resulting death, decay, erosion, rust.

 

[Rockson]

Open Theism must fit within clearly defined parameters/characteristics. Any theological position should.

I think open theism touches bases with speculative thought or it's proponents seek to make logical assumptions. I'd say the traditional view of God being outside time does the same thing too. I think many go by the thought...if this is true.......then this also must be true. God could be saying on a lot of views including my own....Not Quite.

 

[Rockson]

While God is all powerful and there is nothing beyond His ability. We know that God CAN'T lie. It is impossible for GOD TO LIE.

And many err that if he is Almighty and sovereign he must be able to do anything. Can God create a round square? Can we say he's not Almighty if the answer to that is no? Of course not. Some things are just not possible. and for some who would assert it must be they've done a great injustice to their minds.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I think labels are created so people subscribing to a label can address said other labels.

In general, all such positions begin with the sentiment "I'm just going with what the bible's saying"

Since everyone reads the bible differently; The statement that any theological position should fit within clearly defined parameters/characteristics tends to only create strawmen that get flamed.

Since the human mind does not work within clearly defined anythings, I disagree that it "should."

The one thing that is clear concerning human existence is the fact that we can only operate outside clearly defined boundaries for so long. The absence of reason causes death. Ask the drunk driver or the sleepy driver driving on a busy highway. When we build things that are not clearly defined, everyone suffers. Reason is required in all aspects of life.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Time we understand is something with beginning and end.

But from the beginning it was not so.

God's time has no beginning and no end.

The beginning and end aspect appeared because of sin and the resulting death, decay, erosion, rust.

I'd like to see evidence of these.claims. Please start with time begining. "In the begining" is our begins. Not this Universe. Not all of God's creations. Man is entirely too self centered in this belief.

My positions is that time/order is a Characteristic/Quality of Divinity. As such, there is no begining nor end. This is why Christ is referenced as Alpha and Omega. Beginning and End. The Great I AM... I AM begining and end. Such is a statement of an unending quality.

 

[Rockson]

Time we understand is something with beginning and end.

I'd contend that TIME is anything that has sequence. When you say Time we understand is something with beginning and end. Yes as WE understand it. But if I say a hockey game is beginning at 7:00 PM that doesn't mean there wasn't a 6 PM, When God started creating the heavens and the earth that doesn't mean there wasn't sequencing before that. Time any way you look at it is anything that has sequence.

 

[civic]

I'd contend that TIME is anything that has sequence. When you say Time we understand is something with beginning and end. Yes as WE understand it. But if I say a hockey game is beginning at 7:00 PM that doesn't mean there wasn't a 6 PM, When God started creating the heavens and the earth that doesn't mean there wasn't sequencing before that. Time any way you look at it is anything that has sequence.

Ditto. If God is truly a relational Being then there is no way there was no sequence. If God is truly Love then God is not static but must be sequential with thoughts. Its a great topic to ponder.

 

[civic]

The one thing that is clear concerning human existence is the fact that we can only operate outside clearly defined boundaries for so long. The absence of reason causes death. Ask the drunk driver or the sleepy driver driving on a busy highway. When we build things that are not clearly defined, everyone suffers. Reason is required in all aspects of life.

I'll quote CS Lewis

" Reasoning doesn't happen to us, we do it. Every train of thought is accompanied by the " I " think.

So much for the deterministic mindset.

 

[Frank Russell]

I'd like to see evidence of these.claims. Please start with time begining. "In the begining" is our begins. Not this Universe. Not all of God's creations. Man is entirely too self centered in this belief.

My positions is that time/order is a Characteristic/Quality of Divinity. As such, there is no begining nor end. This is why Christ is referenced as Alpha and Omega. Beginning and End. The Great I AM... I AM begining and end. Such is a statement of an unending quality.

In the beginning of creation, there was the first day. However, on the fourth day, a new order of time was created that involved stars moon and sun. Once the creation was subjected to sin, the indicator of time that was visible was also subject to corruption.

However, the time in the place beyond the sky tapestry, is not corrupted and continues the same way.

Since we cannot observe the light of the first day, there is no evidence to see except that which is in scripture.

 

[Frank Russell]

I'd contend that TIME is anything that has sequence. When you say Time we understand is something with beginning and end. Yes as WE understand it. But if I say a hockey game is beginning at 7:00 PM that doesn't mean there wasn't a 6 PM, When God started creating the heavens and the earth that doesn't mean there wasn't sequencing before that. Time any way you look at it is anything that has sequence.

Oh I get it, argument from silence.

 

[Rockson]

I'll quote CS Lewis

" Reasoning doesn't happen to us, we do it. Every train of thought is accompanied by the " I " think.

Anything less than that makes man a mere automation or as some would say ....robots. Our Calvinists friends do everything they can to deny this BUT.....they claim their reasoning does just happen to them.

I

 

[Frank Russell]

The one thing that is clear concerning human existence is the fact that we can only operate outside clearly defined boundaries for so long. The absence of reason causes death. Ask the drunk driver or the sleepy driver driving on a busy highway. When we build things that are not clearly defined, everyone suffers. Reason is required in all aspects of life.

At the same time, one cannot follow the guidelines provided at the beginning of Romans 12 if our minds are not constantly being constantly renewed. So having molds is good, having a brain of cement is not.

It is quite possible that all 5 determined positions on a theological matter could all have a false logical premise. (not always the same one)

It is thus not healthy to rely on constructs to determine things.

 

[civic]

Anything less than that makes man a mere automation or as some would say ....robots. Our Calvinists friends do everything they can to deny this BUT.....they claim their reasoning does just happen to them.

The farther away I have distanced myself from my past beliefs ( determinism ) the more I can see the freedom God has given and equipped mankind with who is made in Gods own likeness and image having those same abilities with freedoms/reasoning etc..... God is not static but dynamic and has always been since before and after creation. God has not changed. And the nature in man has not changed who was created in Gods image.

 

[praise_yeshua]

In the beginning of creation, there was the first day. However, on the fourth day, a new order of time was created that involved stars moon and sun. Once the creation was subjected to sin, the indicator of time that was visible was also subject to corruption.

The rotation of sun and moon is not an indication of time being created on the 4th day. You're accepting Einstein's appeal to relativity that connects time and space. I do not. That is an unproven assumption.

As mentioned, time/sequence is different that duration. Time at its fundamentalist level is nothing more than sequence. Not that I don't believe in relativity. Most all things are "connected" to one another to some degree. However, that does not mean time is irrevocably connected to space/distance.

However, the time in the place beyond the sky tapestry, is not corrupted and continues the same way.

I don't see any corruption relative to our Universal. The lack of Eternal qualties is not a sign of corruption. It is sign of incompleteness. God is patient. His work takes time. There is no reason to see corruption in such work. It is good.

Since we cannot observe the light of the first day, there is no evidence to see except that which is in scripture.

Light changes. It is not a constant. Study refraction. Measuring light in a vacuum isn't representative of all of creation. I'm a science nerd to some degree. The way things operate has fascinated me my entire life.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The farther away I have distanced myself from my past beliefs ( determinism ) the more I can see the freedom God has given and equipped mankind with who is made in Gods own likeness and image having those same abilities with freedoms/reasoning etc..... God is not static but dynamic and has always been since before and after creation. God has not changed. And the nature in man has not changed who was created in Gods image.

Absolutely. God's work isn't complete yet. Man never had every quality of God. That is reserved for those conformed into the image of Jesus Christ.