Open Panel Discussion - Open Theism

[civic]

That's good. Whether open theism or some variation of it is true or not it'll probably take a few years before a great body of believers will give it the time of day. Seems to me that's usually the way things go. Right now it kind of like low hanging fruit where people are delighted to throw out the label OPEN THEISIST and believe they've laid on them a shoe in to make it seem they're a heretic.

And if you think about it Jesus not knowing the day / hour in open theism becomes a non issue when it comes to God.

 

[Rockson]

Classic theist claim these are anthropomorphisms

Open theist claim there is no reason to thing thusly

And you were talking about scriptures which seem to indicate "I will know if Sodom sinned to the level they have "(as they talked about in the debate) I think that was a good argument the Classic ones said it was talking about Sodom's past sins? So he didn't know about them? Of course he did.

But what happened with Abraham in offering up Issacs and God saying I now know......is a different dynamic. It had nothing to do with something past.

About the four debating in the VD. I think if a lot of holders to the Classic view watched it they'd probably be surprised at how the Open advocates very much held their own pretty good more than what they might have expected. Maybe some will feel perhaps it shouldn't be quickly dismissed without thought.

 

[TomL]

I don't understand your comments "Really" in context to what I said.

The truth concerning the gentiles changed

They were

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

but now (at the time of writing)

Ephesians 2:13–22 (KJV 1900) — 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

No They wouldn't. Probabilities are different than Possibilities. Probabilities are certainly possible. However, there are more aspects of probabilities than possibilities. Which is where I'm getting with the failures of Open Theism. Be exacting.

Um it is a fact

dynamic omniscience proponents hold God knows the probabilities


Chapter Two: The God Who Faces a Partially Open Future Page 61
Infallibly Knowing Probabilities

Chapter Four: Questions and Objections Page 152
In the open view, God knows all possibilities and all probabilities (as well as all settled realities) perfectly.

Appendix: Other Passages Supporting the Open View of God and the Future Pages 168–169
If the future is partly composed of possibilities and probabilities, however, then this prophecy is a perfect assessment of what would generally happen based on the Lord’s perfect knowledge of the present disposition of the Jews in Jerusalem.


Gregory A. Boyd, God of the Possible: A Biblical Introduction to the Open View of God (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 2000), 61–169.

Circumstances for the change of mind recognized is different. I just love how you're using "instant" to be compatible with your historical theology. Instance means nothing in the context of this discussion relative to knowledge and immutability.

i stated

Yet again the classic view is God cannot change his mind.

The truth value of every proposition was known instantly and eternally by God.

expressing what is stated here


1. THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD. The knowledge of God may be defined as that perfection of God whereby He, in an entirely unique manner, knows Himself and all things possible and actual in one eternal and most simple act…

The knowledge of God differs in some important points from that of men. It is archetypal, which means that He knows the universe as it exists in His own eternal idea previous to its existence as a finite reality in time and space; and that His knowledge is not, like ours, obtained from without. It is a knowledge that is characterized by absolute perfection. As such it is intuitive rather than demonstrative or discursive. It is innate and immediate, and does not result from observation or from a process of reasoning. Being perfect, it is also simultaneous and not successive, so that He sees things at once in their totality, and not piecemeal one after another. Furthermore, it is complete and fully conscious, while man’s knowledge is always partial, frequently indistinct, and often fails to rise into the clear light of consciousness.
Berkhof, Louis. Systematic Theology (p. 54). . Kindle Edition.


The idea God changes his mind (repents) is a view of open theist.

There are some two dozen verses I am told where God changes his mind or repents.

How to understand these verses are the issue

Classic theist claim these are anthropomorphisms

Open theist claim there is no reason to think that

 

[TomL]

And you were talking about scriptures which seem to indicate "I will know if Sodom sinned to the level they have "(as they talked about in the debate) I think that was a good argument the Classic ones said it was talking about Sodom's past sins? So he didn't know about them? Of course he did.

But what happened with Abraham in offering up Issacs and God saying I now know......is a different dynamic. It had nothing to do with something past.

About the four debating in the VD. I think if a lot of holders to the Classic view watched it they'd probably be surprised at how the Open advocates very much held their own pretty good more than what they might have expected. Maybe some will feel perhaps it shouldn't be quickly dismissed without thought.

Among others

7 - God Indicates the Future is Uncertain by saying perhaps, by chance, lest, etc.
"Perhaps everyone will listen and turn [repent, so] that I may repent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them" Jer. 26:3; "Then the Lord God said, '...now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever' therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden... and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden... to guard the way to the tree of life" Gen. 3:22-24; "Then it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, 'Lest perhaps the people change their mind and return to Egypt' " Ex. 13:17; if the Egyptians "do not believe you nor heed the message of the first sign, that they may believe the message of the latter sign. And it shall be, if they do not believe even these two signs, or listen to your voice, that you shall take water from the river and pour it on the dry land. The water... will become blood" Ex. 4:8-9 (the Bible doesn't record but Egypt's secular writing does that indeed it did come to this, when Moses poured the water on the ground); "do not let the priests and the people break through to come up to the Lord, lest He break out against them" Ex. 19:24; "For if God did not spare the natural branches [Israel], He may not spare you either [the Gentiles]. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also [Israel], if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again" Rom. 11:21-23 by which Paul explains that God could graft national Israel back in again as His covenant people, and being God (who could stop Him?) He could bring to a premature end to His covenant with the Body of Christ (at which point He'd either return to His covenant of circumcision or do something new); "If she had not [Heb. perhaps] turned aside from Me, surely I would also have killed you by now, and let her live" Num. 22:33; "It may be [Heb. perhaps] that the house of Judah will hear all the adversities which I purpose to bring upon them, that everyone may turn from his evil way, that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin" Jer. 36:3 showing the extent and significance of the possibilities; “They sow the wind, and reap the whirlwind... the stalk... shall never produce meal [but] if [Heb. perhaps] it should produce, aliens [foreigners] would swallow it up" Hos. 8:7; "The Lord said, "Indeed the people are one... and this is what they begin to do; now nothing they propose to do will be withheld from them" Gen. 11:6; perhaps regarding Israel, "it may be that they will consider" and repent Ezek. 12:3; "by chance a certain priest came down that road [to Jericho] Luke 10:31; "Sin no more lest a worse thing come upon you" John 5:14; "if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land... it shall be that I will do to you as I thought to do to them Num. 33:55-56 (that is, God threatened to cast out Israel, as happened by the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities, instead of casting out the pagan nations); "Then they drew near to the village where they were going, and He [Jesus] indicated that He would have gone farther. But they constrained Him saying, 'Abide with us...' and He went in to stay with them" Luke 24:28-29; "Now about the fourth watch of the night He came to them, walking on the sea, and would have passed them by" except that His disciples cried out and He replied to them Mark 6:48; "Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall" 1 Cor. 10:12; and see Ezek. 7:23-24, the future now being different from what it would have been, but for their bloody crime.

14 - God Wants to See What Men Will Do so He tests men, looks to see, searches, and didn’t know what men would do.
God said to Abraham, "now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me" Gen. 22:12; "the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name" Gen. 2:19; "there He tested them and said, 'If you diligently heed the voice of the Lord your God... I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought on the Egyptians' " Ex. 15:25-26; "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not" Ex. 16:4; "And you shall remember that the Lord your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not" Deut. 8:2; "the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart" Deut. 13:3; "For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth" with the "eyes" figure of speech referring to the reality that God looks and sees so that He can "show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him" 2 Chr. 16:9; "The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God" Ps. 14:2; "I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings" Jer. 17:10; "I also will no longer drive out before [Israel] any of the nations which Joshua left when he died, so that through them I may test Israel, whether they will keep the ways of the Lord, to walk in them as their fathers kept them, or not" Jud. 2:21-22 (and as with God repenting by removing Saul from the throne, an action, removing him, cannot be dismissed as a figure of speech; thus if it God "looking" to see what men would do were only a figure, He would not have to take an action to accomplish that "looking", therefore actions taken in a text are one way to falsify a "figure-of-speech dismissal"); Jud. 3:4; Ex. 20:20; 2 Chr. 32:31; Ps. 17:3; Jonah 3:10.

See article

Open Theism Bible Verses in 33 Categories | Open Theism

www.opentheism.org

 

[praise_yeshua]

The truth concerning the gentiles changed

They were

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

but now (at the time of writing)

Ephesians 2:13–22 (KJV 1900) — 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Okay. Thanks

Um it is a fact

dynamic omniscience proponents hold God knows the probabilities


Chapter Two: The God Who Faces a Partially Open Future Page 61
Infallibly Knowing Probabilities

Chapter Four: Questions and Objections Page 152
In the open view, God knows all possibilities and all probabilities (as well as all settled realities) perfectly.

Appendix: Other Passages Supporting the Open View of God and the Future Pages 168–169
If the future is partly composed of possibilities and probabilities, however, then this prophecy is a perfect assessment of what would generally happen based on the Lord’s perfect knowledge of the present disposition of the Jews in Jerusalem.


Gregory A. Boyd, God of the Possible: A Biblical Introduction to the Open View of God (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 2000), 61–169.

Even Boyd tends to conflate the two and downplay the ramifications of probabilities. He is better than most but I wouldn't classify him as an Open Theist anymore. The position of Open Theism has changed significantly in the last 20 years relative to the defense of the position.

i stated

Yet again the classic view is God cannot change his mind.

The truth value of every proposition was known instantly and eternally by God.

expressing what is stated here


1. THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD. The knowledge of God may be defined as that perfection of God whereby He, in an entirely unique manner, knows Himself and all things possible and actual in one eternal and most simple act…

The knowledge of God differs in some important points from that of men. It is archetypal, which means that He knows the universe as it exists in His own eternal idea previous to its existence as a finite reality in time and space; and that His knowledge is not, like ours, obtained from without. It is a knowledge that is characterized by absolute perfection. As such it is intuitive rather than demonstrative or discursive. It is innate and immediate, and does not result from observation or from a process of reasoning. Being perfect, it is also simultaneous and not successive, so that He sees things at once in their totality, and not piecemeal one after another. Furthermore, it is complete and fully conscious, while man’s knowledge is always partial, frequently indistinct, and often fails to rise into the clear light of consciousness.
Berkhof, Louis. Systematic Theology (p. 54). . Kindle Edition.


The idea God changes his mind (repents) is a view of open theist.

There are some two dozen verses I am told where God changes his mind or repents.

How to understand these verses are the issue

Classic theist claim these are anthropomorphisms

Open theist claim there is no reason to think that

Exactly. This statement is full of inconsistencies and nonsensical statements contrary to fact. Which is why the description of Dynamic Omniscience is a misnomer. It can be clearly seen in your statement above.

Quote form above "existence as a finite reality in time and space"......

I was here earlier when you describing your understanding. I was way ahead of you. I have experience in this arguments. I've been here in this spot many times in my life.

Like I said then, this position seeks to be compatible with what you classify yourself as "classic theology". That is not my goal. Not my goal all. All I care about is if it true to the Scriptures/revelation and reason of fact.

God reasons. His knowledge of the future is gained from reasoning relative to mutable mankind. As predictable as man is, God can not know the exact circumstances of the timing of salvation for all men. Lets take that this "premise" and begin there.....

Did God know exactly when you would be birthed in the family of God from all Eternity or did God live within that "dynamic" with you and discover/learn of you?

I believe the latter.

Scripture.....

Luk 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

This joy above is God expressing pleasure.

Again, true to what I believe. God's knowledge changes but His immutability is intact because of His never changing Character.

 

[praise_yeshua]

14 - God Wants to See What Men Will Do so He tests men, looks to see, searches, and didn’t know what men would do.
God said to Abraham, "now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me" Gen. 22:12; "the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name" Gen. 2:19; "there He tested them and said, 'If you diligently heed the voice of the Lord your God... I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought on the Egyptians' " Ex. 15:25-26; "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not" Ex. 16:4; "And you shall remember that the Lord your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not" Deut. 8:2; "the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart" Deut. 13:3; "For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth" with the "eyes" figure of speech referring to the reality that God looks and sees so that He can "show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him" 2 Chr. 16:9; "The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God" Ps. 14:2; "I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings" Jer. 17:10; "I also will no longer drive out before [Israel] any of the nations which Joshua left when he died, so that through them I may test Israel, whether they will keep the ways of the Lord, to walk in them as their fathers kept them, or not" Jud. 2:21-22 (and as with God repenting by removing Saul from the throne, an action, removing him, cannot be dismissed as a figure of speech; thus if it God "looking" to see what men would do were only a figure, He would not have to take an action to accomplish that "looking", therefore actions taken in a text are one way to falsify a "figure-of-speech dismissal"); Jud. 3:4; Ex. 20:20; 2 Chr. 32:31; Ps. 17:3; Jonah 3:10.

See article

Open Theism Bible Verses in 33 Categories | Open Theism

www.opentheism.org

I made this point in this discussion over 20 years ago. This author is overlooking.....

Deu 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

I agree with the heading "God Wants to See What Men Will Do" but I reject the idea that God somehow still knows facets of the surronding construct and thusly proactively works to prevent certain scenarios.

Now stay with me.......

Does prayer change things? Can you pray and actually get a dynamic "in time" answer that would not have happened otherwise?

Take for example, you have not, because you ask not. How should we pray????

DAILY....

In the context of probability or possibilities, this information is impossible to know nor predict. Prayer can become a repetitive drudgery. A meaningless exercise with little no meaningful value. The context wherein God can predict or establish probably to a exhaustive degree is rather silly. The event is predicated upon the "whims" of the mutable.

 

[TomL]

I made this point in this discussion over 20 years ago. This author is overlooking.....

Deu 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

I agree with the heading "God Wants to See What Men Will Do" but I reject the idea that God somehow still knows facets of the surronding construct and thusly proactively works to prevent certain scenarios.

You thus have God learning

That in itself is contrary to a classical view of God

Chris Fisher would say if God learns open theism is true

Now stay with me.......

Does prayer change things? Can you pray and actually get a dynamic "in time" answer that would not have happened otherwise?

Yes

I believe it does

23 - God's People Believe God Can Change His Mind.
Moses pleaded with the Lord his God, and said: "Lord, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people... Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, 'He brought them out... to consume them from the face of the earth'? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel [Jacob...] to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, 'I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.' " Ex. 32:11-13; God promised Abraham to give him a son by Sarah and "Abraham said to God, 'Oh, that Ishmael might live before You!' " Gen. 17:16-18; Abraham pressed God to be merciful to Sodom saying, " 'Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked? Suppose there were fifty righteous within the city... Far be it from You to do such a thing...' So the Lord said, 'If I find in Sodom fifty righteous... then I will spare all the place...' Then Abraham answered... 'Suppose there were five less than the fifty... Suppose there should be forty... Suppose thirty... Suppose twenty... Suppose ten should be found there?' And [God] said, 'I will not destroy it for the sake of ten.' " Gen. 18:23-32; "the Lord was very angry with Aaron and would have destroyed him; so I prayed for Aaron" Deut. 9:19-20; David therefore pleaded with God for the child, and David fasted... Then his servants said to him, "What is this that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive, but when the child died, you arose and ate..." And he said, "While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who can tell whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?' " 2 Sam. 12:16, 21-22; "Therefore He said that He would destroy them, had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, to turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them" Ps. 106:23; etc.

24 - God’s People Believe they can Change God’s Mind and they Do Change His Mind including as Jesus teaches.
"Then Moses pleaded with the Lord his God" Ex. 32:11-13; "I was afraid of the anger and hot displeasure with which the Lord was angry with you, to destroy you. But the Lord listened to me at that time also. And the Lord was very angry with Aaron and would have destroyed him; so I prayed for Aaron" Deut. 9:19-20; Jeremiah believed people could change God's mind, and especially Moses and Samuel, as indicated by him writing this under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, "Then the Lord said to me, 'Even if Moses and Samuel stood before Me [even then!], My mind would [still] not be favorable toward this people...' " Jer. 15:1; "Therefore He said that He would destroy them, had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, to turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them" Ps. 106:23; persistent widow Luke 18:4-7; Abraham pressing God to be merciful to Sodom and Gomorrah Gen. 18:23-32

Take for example, you have not, because you ask not. How should we pray????

DAILY....

In the context of probability or possibilities, this information is impossible to know nor predict. Prayer can become a repetitive drudgery. A meaningless exercise with little no meaningful value. The context wherein God can predict or establish probably to a exhaustive degree is rather silly. The event is predicated upon the "whims" of the mutable.

Are you arguing what you believe is rational, or concerning what open theists hold?

I presented the evidence

Um it is a fact

dynamic omniscience proponents hold God knows the probabilities


Chapter Two: The God Who Faces a Partially Open Future Page 61
Infallibly Knowing Probabilities

Chapter Four: Questions and Objections Page 152
In the open view, God knows all possibilities and all probabilities (as well as all settled realities) perfectly.

Appendix: Other Passages Supporting the Open View of God and the Future Pages 168–169
If the future is partly composed of possibilities and probabilities, however, then this prophecy is a perfect assessment of what would generally happen based on the Lord’s perfect knowledge of the present disposition of the Jews in Jerusalem.


Gregory A. Boyd, God of the Possible: A Biblical Introduction to the Open View of God (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 2000), 61–169.

I could quote Warren Mcgrew stating the same thing

 

[Rockson]

Among others

7 - God Indicates the Future is Uncertain by saying perhaps, by chance, lest, etc.
"Perhaps everyone will listen and turn [repent, so] that I may repent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them" Jer. 26:3; "Then the Lord God said, '...now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever' therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden... and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden... to guard the way to the tree of life" Gen. 3:22-24; "Then it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, 'Lest perhaps the people change their mind and return to Egypt' " Ex. 13:17; if the Egyptians "do not believe you nor heed the message of the first sign, that they may believe the message of the latter sign. And it shall be, if they do not believe even these two signs, or listen to your voice, that you shall take water from the river and pour it on the dry land. The water... will become blood" Ex. 4:8-9 (the Bible doesn't record but Egypt's secular writing does that indeed it did come to this, when Moses poured the water on the ground); "do not let the priests and the people break through to come up to the Lord, lest He break out against them" Ex. 19:24; "For if God did not spare the natural branches [Israel], He may not spare you either [the Gentiles]. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also [Israel], if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again" Rom. 11:21-23 by which Paul explains that God could graft national Israel back in again as His covenant people, and being God (who could stop Him?) He could bring to a premature end to His covenant with the Body of Christ (at which point He'd either return to His covenant of circumcision or do something new); "If she had not [Heb. perhaps] turned aside from Me, surely I would also have killed you by now, and let her live" Num. 22:33; "It may be [Heb. perhaps] that the house of Judah will hear all the adversities which I purpose to bring upon them, that everyone may turn from his evil way, that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin" Jer. 36:3 showing the extent and significance of the possibilities; “They sow the wind, and reap the whirlwind... the stalk... shall never produce meal [but] if [Heb. perhaps] it should produce, aliens [foreigners] would swallow it up" Hos. 8:7; "The Lord said, "Indeed the people are one... and this is what they begin to do; now nothing they propose to do will be withheld from them" Gen. 11:6; perhaps regarding Israel, "it may be that they will consider" and repent Ezek. 12:3; "by chance a certain priest came down that road [to Jericho] Luke 10:31; "Sin no more lest a worse thing come upon you" John 5:14; "if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land... it shall be that I will do to you as I thought to do to them Num. 33:55-56 (that is, God threatened to cast out Israel, as happened by the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities, instead of casting out the pagan nations); "Then they drew near to the village where they were going, and He [Jesus] indicated that He would have gone farther. But they constrained Him saying, 'Abide with us...' and He went in to stay with them" Luke 24:28-29; "Now about the fourth watch of the night He came to them, walking on the sea, and would have passed them by" except that His disciples cried out and He replied to them Mark 6:48; "Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall" 1 Cor. 10:12; and see Ezek. 7:23-24, the future now being different from what it would have been, but for their bloody crime.

14 - God Wants to See What Men Will Do so He tests men, looks to see, searches, and didn’t know what men would do.
God said to Abraham, "now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me" Gen. 22:12; "the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name" Gen. 2:19; "there He tested them and said, 'If you diligently heed the voice of the Lord your God... I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought on the Egyptians' " Ex. 15:25-26; "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not" Ex. 16:4; "And you shall remember that the Lord your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not" Deut. 8:2; "the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart" Deut. 13:3; "For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth" with the "eyes" figure of speech referring to the reality that God looks and sees so that He can "show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him" 2 Chr. 16:9; "The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God" Ps. 14:2; "I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings" Jer. 17:10; "I also will no longer drive out before [Israel] any of the nations which Joshua left when he died, so that through them I may test Israel, whether they will keep the ways of the Lord, to walk in them as their fathers kept them, or not" Jud. 2:21-22 (and as with God repenting by removing Saul from the throne, an action, removing him, cannot be dismissed as a figure of speech; thus if it God "looking" to see what men would do were only a figure, He would not have to take an action to accomplish that "looking", therefore actions taken in a text are one way to falsify a "figure-of-speech dismissal"); Jud. 3:4; Ex. 20:20; 2 Chr. 32:31; Ps. 17:3; Jonah 3:10.

See article

Open Theism Bible Verses in 33 Categories | Open Theism

www.opentheism.org

You've put down a lot of telling verses Tom.

So what conclusion do you draw from them? You're not at a place where you'd call yourself an open theist but you see many things that need to be considered? Do you have a lean one way compared to another?

 

[TomL]

You've put down a lot of telling verses Tom.

So what conclusion do you draw from them? You're not at a place where you'd call yourself an open theist but you see many things that need to be considered? Do you have a lean one way compared to another?

I guess a lot depends on hermenuetics. How do we understand the many verses where God appears to take in knowledge. How do we understand verses where God is said to repent

If taken literally, the bible teaches open theism

If understood anthropomorphically then a classic or neo classic view may be held

Open theism also calls into question the understanding of certain classic views of God's attributes

Timelessness, simplicity, impassibility, immutability

Previously i would have affirmed all four. I do not at present

 

[Rockson]

I guess a lot depends on hermenuetics. How do we understand the many verses where God appears to take in knowledge. How do we understand verses where God is said to repent

If taken literally, the bible teaches open theism

If understood anthropomorphically then a classic or neo classic view may be held

Open theism also calls into question the understanding of certain classic views of God's attributes

Timelessness, simplicity, impassibility, immutability

Previously i would have affirmed all four. I do not at present

Timelessness is an interesting claim among the classic view. So they think in terms of past, present and future so what can God be outside the future mean? Well he has to be or he's not omnipresent. I'd say though is it a limitation to be in a place that does not exist? God deals in REALITY. Anything of reality he is in. We wouldn't say God is in the universe of Star Wars. We wouldn't say he has to be there.

If it doesn't exist it's not a reality. Is the future an actual reality before it happens? My name here is Rockson. Is there another Rockson myself up ahead in the future this very second? There can't be. That would mean there would have to be two biological systems at the "same time" So why it is demanded that God wouldn't be God not being in a place that doesn't exist?

I have a little bit way of thinking then the open thesis people do though. I don't believe he knows things by mathematically probabilities but he does know things for the reason of a different dynamic.

 

[TomL]

Timelessness is an interesting claim among the classic view. So they think in terms of past, present and future so what can God be outside the future mean? Well he has to be or he's not omnipresent. I'd say though is it a limitation to be in a place that does not exist? God deals in REALITY. Anything of reality he is in. We wouldn't say God is in the universe of Star Wars. We wouldn't say he has to be there.

I guess I am not following you.

Who is they?

Being outside of time means God does not experience change or sequence.

Time is a construct which makes change possible

in Open Theism /by John Sanders

Is God “outside” of Time? Dr. John Sanders February 2023

It is commonplace to hear people say that God is “outside of time.” However, many theists, not only open theists, affirm that God is temporal in that God experiences one event after another. Even some critics of open theism reject divine timelessness (atemporality).

A common objection is that divine temporality means that God is “inside” of time. Proponents of divine temporality respond in several ways. To begin, the word “inside” means that time is a container and since containers are larger than the contents inside them, then time must be larger than God which is a rather “naughty” theological idea. However, divine temporalists say this way of stating the issue assumes a particular way of understanding time that divine temporalists reject. That is, the question is phrased in a way that that favors divine atemporality.

Sanders argues that time is best understood as the experience of one event after another (Theology in the Flesh, 2016, pages 106-113). We explain these events in different ways such as we are moving towards an event or the event is moving towards us (e. g., “Spring is almost upon us.”), or, we use the experience of before and after (e. g., “Spring follows winter”). It is really events and change we perceive and we develop different understandings of “time” to get at our experience. It is events, not the abstraction “time”, that humans experience. We experience petting a dog or cat, cooking a meal for someone, and talking to others. These events have duration and sequence from which we develop the mental abstraction of time. We experience sunrises and sunsets, the phases of the moon, and the annual revolution of the earth around the sun which provide us with ways to measure the duration of events. Again, what humans experience is events when we interact with objects, not the mental abstraction “time”.

The person who says an object is “in” time is reifying the abstraction—making the abstraction into an object. It conceives of time in spatial terms, such as a container or block. This way of thinking assumes the block theory of time (sometimes called four dimensionalism). In this view, all events past, present, and future, always exist and they cannot be changed. This view is deterministic and rules out freewill. Divine temporalists reject this theory of time and affirm the dynamic view of time (also called the A-theory of time).

Divine temporalists affirm that God experiences duration and sequence as God relates to creatures. There is a before and an after to God’s experience with, for example, Abraham. This does not mean that God is limited by “time” because God is everlasting (without beginning or end). Divine temporalists believe this position better makes sense of the common religious teaching that God is the “living God.”

Is God “outside” of time?

Again, notice that the word “outside” implies that time is a container. If we do not use the container metaphor and ask whether God experiences duration (existence over a period of events) or sequence (before and after), then we have evidence from ancient texts. The biblical texts as well as the polytheism of the ancient Near East and Greece depicted the gods as having duration and sequence (before and after), just as humans do. Hence, the gods experienced events and thus, “time.”

Most humans consider change the crucial element for distinguishing between different events. For example we experience changes in the series of events before we were petting the dog, petting the dog, and then no longer petting the dog. It is changes between experiences that allow us to differentiate them. However, the ancient Greek thinker Parmenides denied that change is real. We think we changed from petting the dog to no longer petting it but this is an illusion. He said being (what is) is full and complete. Heraclitus claimed that everything changes except the idea of change itself (the idea of change never changes). Plato molded these ideas into his system in which the Forms (pure ideas) never change but anything that has matter, such as humans and dogs, is subject to change (time). In his, Timaeus, Plato says that God does not change and so only the verb “is” applies to God, not before and after. Many followers of Plato developed the idea that God does not experiencing events (time). This was taken up by Philo of Alexandria (Jewish) who claimed that God is timeless and changeless. Many Christian thinkers adopted this view.

At some point in history, the idea developed that “time” is the cosmic container of all things that change. My hunch it was with the Neo-Platonists and early Jewish and Christian thinkers. The container metaphor is the origin of the expression “God is outside of time.”

In conclusion, there are good reasons to believe God experiences events and so has a before and an after. God is everlastingly temporal. The container metaphor with its logic of inside/outside is rejected by those who affirm that God experiences events as they occur. Without the container metaphor, the criticism that God is limited by time loses its power.

 

[Rockson]

I guess I am not following you.

Who is they?

They would be those holding the classical view that there's the past, present and future and that there has never been "a time" where the future wasn't seen. If it were seen as we say "always" that means when I drive my car somewhere tomorrow....in a way for it to be now seen I'm there now doing it. How can that be when it would mean my real physical body would have to be there and here at "the same time" I can't conceive that as being possible and it's nonsensical. Therefore in some way form or fashion open theism would have to be true.

Being outside of time means God does not experience change or sequence.

And I'd say he must experience sequence for after all there's a time I haven't done something.....and then I did. I wouldn't say that we can say that we're all just one big moment.

 

[TomL]

They would be those holding the classical view that there's the past, present and future and that there has never been "a time" where the future wasn't seen. If it were seen as we say "always" that means when I drive my car somewhere tomorrow....in a way for it to be now seen I'm there now doing it. How can that be when it would mean my real physical body would have to be there and here at "the same time" I can't conceive that as being possible and it's nonsensical. Therefore in some way form or fashion open theism would have to be true.

Ok. The Classic view of time holds the past, the present and the future all exists simultaneously. The dynanic view or the presentist view holds the past no longer exists and the future as of yet has no existence

We of course experience them sequentially but God does not in the classic view

And I'd say he must experience sequence for after all there's a time I haven't done something.....and then I did. I wouldn't say that we can say that we're all just one big moment.

Well that is the dynamic or "A" view of time. The classic view is the "B" theory or static theory of time.