'O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!'

[civic]

Thanks Rockson.

I want to make it clear I don't agree with Steve on a lot of what he says either, I believe in a literal Antichrist and end time tribulation.

I just happen to think he makes some decent points about modern day Israel.

If you believe that then there is no escaping one of the main reasons Jesus returns at His 2nd Coming. Its to wage war with the nations that come against Israel. Preterists and partials are anti biblical.

No Israel, no 2nd Coming- They are 2 sides of the same coin.

 

[Diserner]

If you believe that then there is no escaping one of the main reasons Jesus returns at His 2nd Coming. Its to wage war with the nations that come against Israel. Preterists and partials are anti biblical.

No Israel, no 2nd Coming- They are 2 sides of the same coin.

Well, I would urge you to consider something you might not be factoring in.

Some promises of God are actually "conditional" and not "unconditional."

In fact, it is often closely associated with Calvinist thinking that all promises of God HAVE to be unconditional, and this introduces all kinds of errors in thinking, false conclusions about Scripture. They call it "monergism," but it ends up eliminating the meaning of "if."

Or another way of looking at these passages, is in fact, a metaphor for the end time persecution of Christians and the second coming of Christ.

The fact is, there are solid ways of looking at these passages that don't necessitate China and Russia stuffing millions of tanks and soldiers into the tiny land of Israel where they will get no resources in return.

 

[civic]

Well, I would urge you to consider something you might not be factoring in.

Some promises of God are actually "conditional" and not "unconditional."

In fact, it is often closely associated with Calvinist thinking that all promises of God HAVE to be unconditional, and this introduces all kinds of errors in thinking, false conclusions about Scripture. They call it "monergism," but it ends up eliminating the meaning of "if."

Or another way of looking at these passages, is in fact, a metaphor for the end time persecution of Christians and the second coming of Christ.

The fact is, there are solid ways of looking at these passages that don't necessitate China and Russia stuffing millions of tanks and soldiers into the tiny land of Israel where they will get no resources in return.

The 2nd Coming is based upon His promises to Israel/Jews in the land. There are dozens upon dozens of prophecies yet to be fulfilled around His return and Millennial Kingdom which follows His return. One has to make a mockery out of all those passages and spiritualize them into nonsense to get around them. Sorry the literal does not become metaphoric. That is nothing but eisegesis. That is exactly what replacement theology does with Israel/Jews and makes a mockery out of all the literal promises to the Jews in their land.

 

[Rockson]

Thanks Rockson.

I want to make it clear I don't agree with Steve on a lot of what he says either, I believe in a literal Antichrist and end time tribulation.

I just happen to think he makes some decent points about modern day Israel.

I think so too. His material on the subject is worth having a look at. I hope some will.

 

[civic]

I think so too. His material on the subject is worth having a look at. I hope some will.

Calvin is worth reading as well just take out the doctrines of grace, determinism, sovereignty and replacement theology and the rest is pretty good.

 

[Diserner]

spiritualize them into nonsense to get around them

The Bible is a spiritual book, and metaphor is one of the most used themes in all of Scripture. For you to call it "nonsense" seems disrespectful to one of the major themes of God's Word. Jesus' parables are often based in non-literal metaphors.

Okay, let me ask you one simple thing:

Do you these locust scorpion creatures will literally be physically flying around stinging everyone in the end times?

7 The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. 8 They had hair like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth. 9 And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle. 10 They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. (Rev. 9:7-10 NKJ)

 

[civic]

The Bible is a spiritual book, and metaphor is one of the most used themes in all of Scripture. For you to call it "nonsense" seems disrespectful to one of the major themes of God's Word. All of Jesus' parables are based in non-literal metaphors—every single one.

Okay, let me ask you one simple thing:

Do you these locust scorpion creatures will literally be physically flying around stinging everyone in the end times?

7 The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. 8 They had hair like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth. 9 And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle. 10 They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. (Rev. 9:7-10 NKJ)

Israel and the Jews are not metaphors. They are Gods people and Gods land of promise.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

The Golden Rule of Interpretation: When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense, lest it result in nonsense

“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),

 

[e v e]

the present day israel is a kingdom of this world
as all other kingdoms on this earth are,
and, as all of them will, it will pass
and never be remembered

 

[e v e]

The Golden Rule of Interpretation: When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense, lest it result in nonsense

“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),

the problem is that its the Sealed vision.

 

[Diserner]

Israel and the Jews are not metaphors. They are Gods people and Gods land of promise.

hope this helps !!!

What do you do with the verse, "He is not a Jew who is one outwardly"?

Do you take that literally?

Or metaphorically?

 

[Diserner]

the present day israel is a kingdom of this world
as all other kingdoms on this earth are,
and, as all of them will, it will pass
and never be remembered

Are you insulting God's chosen people?!

He will bless those who bless them, and curse those who curse them!

 

[e v e]

What do you do with the verse, "He is not a Jew who is one outwardly"?

Do you take that literally?

Or metaphorically?

i interpret a hebrew soul as npsh.
= one undivided being made by God in His eden paradise He declared good.

then came the fall. and now we are not undivided souls but a depraved flesh body with a soul,
a soul mostly doing what the flesh wants.

so your question seems strange to me.
a mistranslation of what a hebrew soul is.

the current fleshbody regardless of type be it whatever, and i am spanish sephardic, is a corruption.

He only cares about a genuine soul
not its sin nature which is flesh

 

[e v e]

Are you insulting God's chosen people?!

He will bless those who bless them, and curse those who curse them!

i never discussed God's people.

I discussed earthly nations.

 

[civic]

What do you do with the verse, "He is not a Jew who is one outwardly"?

Do you take that literally?

Or metaphorically?

Self explanatory you are conflating the spiritual with the literal/ physical. The text speaks for itself plainly.

A text without the context is a pretext for a proof text. You are guilty of proof texting and conflating them trying to make them the same.

 

[Diserner]

Self explanatory you are conflating the spiritual with the literal/ physical. The text speaks for itself plainly.

A text without the context is a pretext for a proof text. You are guilty of proof texting and conflating them trying to make them the same.

So you take it literally?

 

[civic]

So you take it literally?

No

 

[Diserner]

No

"Israel and the Jews are not metaphors. They are Gods people and Gods land of promise."

 

[Complete]

Here is my source of information-The Berean Bible Society-Grace ambassadors-what is yours? And I only started to do Dispensational studies a week ago, so forgive me for some errors.
Johann.

Hi Johann,

Works that have been particularly helpful to me, were from The Berean Publishing Trust in London - https://www.bereanexpositor.church/ . They were the books and audio messages of Dr E.W Bullinger, Mr Charles Welch and Stuart Allan. They are available for free download at Bibleunderstanding.com, and also at Believer.com.

https://www.bibleunderstanding.com/Foundations of Dispensational Truth-Bullinger.pdf -
* This is a very good book, Johann for free download.

Pray the prayer of Ephesians 1:17-23 by the way, @Johann for what is prayed for by Paul there is vital for anyone engaged on the journey you and I are on:- 'The spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him.

Hope you are sleeping better now.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[civic]

"Israel and the Jews are not metaphors. They are Gods people and Gods land of promise."

Yep