'O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!'

[Complete]

Thanks. I see in the OT a constant proclamation of God's love for non-Israelites.

In you ALL the nations of the earth will be blessed. A light for the NATIONS and the ENDS of the earth.

Let me ask you something.

(1) Is a chosen vessel to bring a message or revelation to others more inherently special than those it is sent to?

That might clear some things up.

(2) Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? (Rom. 3:29 NKJ)

'And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
because thou hast obeyed My voice.'
(Gen 22:18)

Hello @dizerner,

Thank you, I don't doubt it. I just could not recall anything that I could use in my response to you. This reference you referred to is a perfect example.

* In answer to your question No. 1,' Is a chosen vessel to bring a message or revelation to others more inherently special than those it is sent to?':-

* I think of the words of the Lord concerning Paul:-

'But the Lord said unto him, (Ananias)​

Go thy way: for he (Saul) is a chosen vessel unto me, ​

to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:​

For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for My name's sake.'​

(Act 9:15-16)​

* No I don't think the messenger is any more special in the sight of God, that those to whom the message is given.

(2) Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? (Rom. 3:29 NKJ)

* He is the God of all who come to Him for salvation, through faith in the one all-sufficient sacrifice of Christ on their behalf.

Thank you, @dizerner, (I hope I measure up)

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[Diserner]

Thank you, @dizerner, (I hope I measure up)

Jesus measured up for us all, brother.

 

[Complete]

Is Israel ‘Cast Away’ or Not?​

​

Romans 11:1-2 “I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew…”​

Hello @Johann,

Looking at Romans 11:1-2, I believe the answer comes in the word, 'foreknew':- 'God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew'. For though the nation of Israel would depart into the blindness of unbelief, yet a remnant, foreknown by God, would believe and receive the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah. Like Paul Himself (11:1). God has foreknowledge and knew beforehand those who would place their trust in Him, and believe the Gospel that He had made known concerning the all- sufficient sacrificial offering for sin that had been made by His only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

During the Gospels, the Lord Jesus said time and again, that only those that the Father gave to Him could come to Him. This was because at that time only a remnant would be called out of Israel. The day will yet come when all Israel will be saved, but only a remnant would be saved at that time, according to God's plan and purpose.

Now consider how the seemingly conflicting ideas here in Romans 11 give rise to the questions as to whether Israel is “cast away” or not “cast away,” and is Israel “fallen” or not. These seeming contradictions of the very beginning of the Romans 11 cause most people to stop trying to understand it before they’ve even begun to study.​

* The theme of Romans is righteousness, but Paul is having to address Divine Sovereignty and Human responsibility, because of the failure of Israel, the blindness of so many of that chosen nation, and the inclusion of Gentile believers: All of which have presented problems which need to be considered and responded to in Romans ch. 9-11.

Now we will look into the Romans 11 verses that most people find troublesome and share other Bible verses that shed light on these seeming ‘problematic’ verses. Romans 11:15 typically confuses most Bible readers.​

​

“For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world (mankind), what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?” (Romans 11:15)​

​

It is obviously clear in Rom. 11:15a that Israel has in fact been “cast away,” and yet from Rom. 11:15b Israel will be ‘received again; as coming to “life from the dead.” (see also Rom: 11:26, Zech. 12:10).​

​

The above Scriptures present seemingly contrasting ideas. Verses 1-2 say God has “not cast away His people (Israel)”, while verse 15 says God has cast away His people Israel.​

​

So, the question is, has Israel been cast away or not, and if so, How?​

Again consider, Romans 11:1-2: “Hath God cast away his people? God forbid [May God never let that happen!]. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God hath not cast away his people…”​

​

The expression “God hath not cast away His people (Israel)” (above) has a twofold meaning.​

​

When Paul wrote the book of Romans (around the time of Acts 20), Jesus’ “little flock” remnant (v5) of believing Messianic Jews were still living. Jesus’ “little flock” (Luke 12:32) of Messianic believers were led by the Twelve Apostles. They are what Paul calls “the Israel of God” in Gal. 6:16. So, during the Acts period, there were these believing Jews who had come out of the Apostate National Israel by being water baptized with John’s “baptism of repentance.”​

Also, during today’s grace age, Paul’s “the Church, the Body of Christ,” includes ‘grace believing Jews’; whereby they are one with the believing Gentiles, on an absolutely equal basis, without regard to race as equal members of “the church, the body of Christ.”​

“There is neither Jew nor Greek (Gentiles), there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” Galatians 3:28 (KJV)​

All the believing Jews of Paul’s day, whether of Jesus’ “little flock” or as members of “the Church, the body of Christ” proves that God had not cut-off all contact with all Jews.​

​

The believing Jews of the “little flock” still had access to God while alive during the Acts period, then dying out​

​

The unbelieving Jews were still being offered fellowship with Him. But now, any Jews could only be saved by receiving and believing Paul’s Grace Gospel of faith in Jesus and His cross alone, in order to become a member of the joint “Body of Christ” that consist of Jews and Gentiles.​

* I have to bring a note of disagreement in here, @Johann. For the church which is the Body of Christ did not come into being until the nation of Israel had finally rejected the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah at Acts 28, and salvation had been sent to the Gentiles (Acts 28:28). It was only then that the revelation concerning believers, in the light of that event, was made known. God had provisioned for this, from before the foundation of the world, but it was 'hid in God' (Eph. 3:9) until it's revelation to the Apostle Paul: and made known during his imprisonment at Rome at the end of the Acts period. Knowledge of the church which is the Body of Christ, is only found in those epistles written while Paul was in prison in Rome, namely (Eph. Phil. Col. 2 Tim. Titus and Philemon). So quoting from Galatians, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, Romans, Hebrews, and 1 & 2 Corinthians, any text in regard to the Church which is His Body, will not apply.

* This is where I probably differ from those who are the source of your information, for I believe the church which is the Body of Christ began after Acts 28, and not before.

Paul here summarizes the basis of his gospel, then how to be saved, and he declares it is a gospel for ‘all mankind,’ without respect to racial distinction, state in life, or gender.​

“Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He rose again the third day” (1 Cor. 15:3-4).​

​

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved” (Acts 16:31)​

​

“There is neither Jew nor Greek (Gentile), there is neither bond nor free, … neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal. 3:28)​

​

Additionally, Israel’s “little flock” was the remnant group of Israel’s Messianic believers that God envisioned from the time of Abraham. God has not forever removed National Israel from his promised program for her. He has not permanently rejected Israel. He has only ‘set Israel aside for a time,’ the time of the Gentiles.​

​

It’s clear that the Triune God will deal with and recover some of ‘fallen Israel’ in the future “ages to come” because Rom. 11:12 speaks of Israel’s “fulness” as opposed to her “diminishing.” Two-thirds of Israel will die in the 7-year Tribulation period. Romans 11:15 also discusses God’s “receiving of them (Israel)” as opposed to God “casting [her] away.”​

​

Then in Romans 11:26 Paul declares that ultimately, “all Israel shall be saved,” meaning her ‘spiritual blindness’ of Romans11:25, which exist during today’s “dispensation of the Grace of God,” will end following today’s grace-age, which will end with the “fulness of the Gentiles” the adding of a final grace age believer … just before the Rapture of the body of Christ.​

​

“…blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob (Israel):” (Romans 11:25b-26)​

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[Johann]

* This is where I probably differ from those who are the source of your information, for I believe the church which is the Body of Christ began after Acts 28, and not before.

Here is my source of information-The Berean Bible Society-Grace ambassadors-what is yours? And I only started to do Dispensational studies a week ago, so forgive me for some errors.
Johann.

 

[Grace ambassador]

I will tag him @Grace ambassador

Tag - I guess I'm it, eh? Tagging precious friends in this great/amiable discussion: @Johann,
@civic, @dizerner, and @Complete

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here, is it that Paul's teaching was different than the teaching of Jesus on the kingdom of God and the church ?

Not too sure (still learning) about 'the kingdom of God' Differences, but, I believe I can
address the 'church' Distinctions = are these not 'assemblies' In God's Word?:

Under Prophecy/Covenants/Law:​

1) church in the wilderness:

Acts 7:37-38 "This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A Prophet​

shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; Him​

shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel​

which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the​

lively oracles to give unto us"​

​

Is this the beginning of the "joint Jew/Gentile" Body Of Christ? Note: there are some
who believe the Body of Christ actually started with 'Adam and Eve.' What think ye?

2) earthly (political *) kingdom church:

Matthew 16:18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this​

rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."​

'Will build' a new future church, Different from 'the church in the wilderness'? or:
is it already in existence, according to this consideration of 'trespassing brethren
at the time' Christ Spoke these words?:

Mat_18:17 "And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church:​

but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen​

man and a publican."​

Of course, then the argument could be made "will continue to build" what is
already in existence, whether is started with Adam/Eve, the wilderness, or
Matthew 16:18, which of course would also include:

All the 'christians' (as some think) that began ('new body church'?) with John
"baptizing them for the remission of sins," ( oops! Different topic ), eh?

So, what about Pentecost? Was this not a Continuation of the 'church' spoken
of in Matthew 16:18 and 18:17? Or (as some propose):

The Body Of Christ began then, thus eliminating ALL the above proposals, eh?
A New 'Dispensation Of Grace' church, because of what was later Revealed To Paul?...

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

Under Grace, According To The Revelation Of The Mystery:​

3) Heavenly (organism *) "church, which is His Body":

..."For He is our Peace, Who hath made both one, and hath broken down the​

middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in His Flesh the enmity,​

even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself​

of twain one New man, so making Peace; And that He might reconcile both unto​

God In One Body By The Cross, having slain the enmity thereby"​

(Ephesians 2:14-16) "Oh, the Depth of The Riches!..."​

Who/what is this where "twain And both [Jew/Gentile] one New man [ not 'a bride' ]"?:

"And hath put all things under His Feet, and gave Him to be The Head over all​

things to The Church, Which Is His Body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all."​

(Ephesians 1:22-23)​

Now, under Grace, According To The Revelation Of The Mystery, there seems to be
three possibilities of 'the beginning' of the Body Of Christ assembly = Acts 9, 13, and
28 (@Complete? Respectfully Disagree):

As 'Mid-Acts Dispensationalists' we have chosen Acts 9, when Paul Was Saved,
because:

A) Paul, with the others, at Steven's [ Spirit-Filled preaching and ] stoning, committed​

"the Unpardonable sin," blaspheming The Holy Spirit, which could not "be forgiven in​

that age, nor the next" [ referring to prophetic ages ]. However, With God's Ushering in​

of our ( Parenthetical Age Of Grace between ↑ ↑), we have:​

​

B) Paul, "being Forgiven" In The New Dispensation, and, is Now our pattern, being​

the first one "Baptized By The Holy Spirit * (1Co 12:13) Into The Body Of Christ":​

​

"Howbeit for this cause I obtained Mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ​

might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should ​

hereafter believe on Him to life everlasting." (1 Timothy 1:16)​

​

C) Peter Indirectly confirms this, recognizing that God Was Changing things,​

[ie: water baptism] when [ these, hereafter ] Cornelius' household, were saved,​

Correct?:​

​

"But we believe that through The Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ​

we shall be saved, even as they." (Acts 15:11)​

​

D) We have never found "The Body Of Christ" mentioned by any other writer,​

excepting Paul "In Romans Through Philemon." Did God Do That for good reason?​

Praying this is helpful and encouraging/edifying. Amen.

* More Distinctions/Differences study/review (or re-review), if you wish:

Briefly - Right Division​

 

[Johann]

As 'Mid-Acts Dispensationalists' we have chosen Acts 9, when Paul Was Saved,
because:

Another is saying Acts 28-which one?

 

[Grace ambassador]

Another is saying Acts 28-which one?

Precious friend, you must have missed this? Sleep and rest in Peace!

Now, under Grace, According To The Revelation Of The Mystery, there seems to be
three possibilities of 'the beginning' of the Body Of Christ assembly = Acts 9, 13, and
28 (@Complete? Respectfully Disagree):

As 'Mid-Acts Dispensationalists' we have chosen Acts 9, when Paul Was Saved,

 

[Johann]

Precious friend, you must have missed this? Sleep and rest in Peace!

Missed what @Grace ambassador -and yes-very tired.

 

[Grace ambassador]

Missed what @Grace ambassador -and yes-very tired.

right before I said this:

As 'Mid-Acts Dispensationalists' we have chosen Acts 9, when Paul Was Saved,

I posted this:

...Acts 9, 13, and 28 (@Complete? Respectfully Disagree):

meaning that I respectfully disagree with Chris (@Complete) and the Acts 28 position
of The Body Of Christ.

Are you sure you can "see" all of my postings, Precious friend? You must be VERY VERY tired

 

[Johann]

right before I said this:

As 'Mid-Acts Dispensationalists' we have chosen Acts 9, when Paul Was Saved=

--meaning that I respectfully disagree with Chris (@Complete) and the Acts 28 position
of The Body Of Christ.


This? See the disagreement? Can you send me the link on the site-is it Berean Bible Society? If so, show me-this is new to me.

https://www.google.com/url?client=internal-element-cse&cx=012003887042090230091:bzt-wh0jmeo&q=https://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/searchlight87.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwiRypqqvvmCAxWkX_EDHZomCWIQFnoECAYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0llkv6mR9YGm-5KRW3jy6n

 

[Johann]

right before I said this:

I posted this:

meaning that I respectfully disagree with Chris (@Complete) and the Acts 28 position
of The Body Of Christ.

Are you sure you can "see" all of my postings, Precious friend? You must be VERY VERY tired

Yes, I am-haven't slept for 3 days.

 

[Grace ambassador]

As 'Mid-Acts Dispensationalists' we have chosen Acts 9, when Paul Was Saved=

--meaning that I respectfully disagree with Chris (@Complete) and the Acts 28 position
of The Body Of Christ.


This? See the disagreement? Can you send me the link on the site-is it Berean Bible Society?

Yes, I see: brother Chris (@Grace ambassador) disagrees with Sister Chris (@Complete).
Hope this is Encouraging when you wake up tomorrow and are refreshed and
edified in your diligent study Of God's Word Of Truth:

Practical Beginning Of The Body Of Christ

Amen.

 

[Rockson]

Priceless not 2 cents. Replacement theology is really anti semiticism.

I know Civic this line didn't necessarily originate with you it has been a charge by various dispensationalist seeking to make the other's argument repugnant or distasteful.

I don't think their approach has been fair it's kind of an unjust slam. If one say a Gentile is despising that any Jew should be saved and be made a part of the body of Christ I'd say it would be a just accusation. I'd say nearly all the ones you're referring to most certainly would like to see Jewish people become born again and saved in the same measure they'd like to see any other human being. They know Jews and Gentiles have been made a part of the one new man in Christ Jesus.

The question of whether Israel as a physical nation God has brought them back and is going to work with them in some kind of new covenant we don't now understand is a valid discussion. For ones not believing such laying the charge of anti Semitism is a real stretch. To big a one I'd think.

 

[Johann]

Yes, I see: brother Chris (@Grace ambassador) disagrees with Sister Chris (@Complete).
Hope this is Encouraging when you wake up tomorrow and are refreshed and
edified in your diligent study Of God's Word Of Truth:

Practical Beginning Of The Body Of Christ

Amen.

Just woke up-thanks for the link Chris, busy reading it and I love you all-but I have my "favorites"

Be diligent to present thyself approved to God, a workman without cause for shame, rightly dividing [dissecting] the word of truth.

Praise God for you and Complete.
Johann

PS-while I'm reading the post-which led me to another link-

The Message and Ministry of the Apostle Paul and Its Importance for Us Today

Was the appointment of Paul a continuation of the ministry of the Twelve Apostles, or did God reveal something new through resurrected Jesus?

bereanbibleinstitute.org

-can you peruse this link and give me your feedback?

Did the church begin in John 20:22 or at Pentecost in Acts 2:4? | Bible.org

In answer to your question I have taken some of the arguments from Ryrie’s Basic Theology and added a few comments with a few more verses as well in some places. I would strongly recommend this excellent Theology for its soundness and simplicity. The church did not exist in Old Testament times...

bible.org

 

[civic]

I know Civic this line didn't necessarily originate with you it has been a charge by various dispensationalist seeking to make the other's argument repugnant or distasteful.

I don't think their approach has been fair it's kind of an unjust slam. If one say a Gentile is despising that any Jew should be saved and be made a part of the body of Christ I'd say it would be a just accusation. I'd say nearly all the ones you're referring to most certainly would like to see Jewish people become born again and saved in the same measure they'd like to see any other human being. They know Jews and Gentiles have been made a part of the one new man in Christ Jesus.

The question of whether Israel as a physical nation God has brought them back and is going to work with them in some kind of new covenant we don't now understand is a valid discussion. For ones not believing such laying the charge of anti Semitism is a real stretch. To big a one I'd think.

Thanks for the critique. . As a side note its impossible to escape Pauls argument for the Jews/Israel still being a people of God in Romans 9-11

 

[Rockson]

Thanks for the critique. . As a side note its impossible to escape Pauls argument for the Jews/Israel still being a people of God in Romans 9-11

Jews actually all the tribes of Israel were a chosen nation....in that sense they were a people of God....those people of God had to become children of God by becoming born again. Some have in the past and we hope a great more will in the future. As for Israel as a nation God it's thought brought back I'm still studying it out. I thought this way for sure one time but am studying.

Civic have a look at what Dizerner suggested you watch. I have watched some of Gregg's material over the last few years. Not sure I totally agree with him on all points but it's worth having a look at his material. I'm not a preterist or partial one like him but on this subject.....interesting. Would like to get your thoughts on having seeing the below.

The Modern State of Israel, Part 1 by Steve Gregg

The Modern State of Israel, Part 2

 

[civic]

Jews actually all the tribes of Israel were a chosen nation....in that sense they were a people of God....those people of God had to become children of God by becoming born again. Some have in the past and we hope a great more will in the future. As for Israel as a nation God it's thought brought back I'm still studying it out. I thought this way for sure one time but am studying.

Civic have a look at what Dizerner suggested you watch. I have watched some of Gregg's material over the last few years. Not sure I totally agree with him on all points but it's worth having a look at his material. I'm not a preterist or partial one like him but on this subject.....interesting. Would like to get your thoughts on having seeing the below.

The Modern State of Israel, Part 1 by Steve Gregg

The Modern State of Israel, Part 2

I'm familiar with all the preterists and partial preterists theology. I don't buy it with all the promises God made with Israel that are still future and have not been fulfilled. Add to this one of the main purposes for Christs 2nd Coming is all the nations coming against Israel in Armageddon. That battle and His Return are still future. The Prete's spiritualize literally 100's of promises that are land, physical in nature regarding the Jews in the Middle East.

The Jews today are no different than the Jews in Jesus time rejecting Him and following the Torah. They are still in unbelief as per Romans 9-11 as in Pauls day. When they came back into their land as a recognized people/nation that started the time clock which none of us know unlike Eclipse tried to claim. We know when its getting close as Jesus taught by the signs which were a warning for us to be ready for the time is near. And when He returns as prophesied they will recognize HIM WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED ( Zech 12:10) - as their promised Messiah the Conquering King who wages war with the nations that have come against her and wipes them all out. Then we enter the Millennial Reign of Christ which they all expected at His 1st Coming and were all disappointed.

Those promises are still future and yet to be fulfilled. The passage below has never happened yet- its still future and there is no way to spiritualize it and make it go away.

Jerusalem’s Enemies to Be Destroyed​

Zechariah 12 A prophecy: The word of the Lord concerning Israel.

The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares: 2 “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’

6 “On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.

7 “The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.

Mourning for the One They Pierced​

10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

Matt 24 parallels Zech 12.

Matthew 24
“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory

This is the same event as Zech 12, Matt 24 below

Revelation 19
I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

king of kings and lord of lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Johann]

As for Israel as a nation God it's thought brought back I'm still studying it out. I thought this way for sure one time but am studying.

Likewise-still studying.

 

[Diserner]

Yes, I am-haven't slept for 3 days.

I went 3 days without sleep twice.

I got super sick and felt like I almost died.

I pray you find some sleep soon.

 

[Diserner]

Not sure I totally agree with him on all points but it's worth having a look at his material.

Thanks Rockson.

I want to make it clear I don't agree with Steve on a lot of what he says either, I believe in a literal Antichrist and end time tribulation.

I just happen to think he makes some decent points about modern day Israel.