Need a reason to believe Calvinists are who they claim to be?

[Red Baker]

@Titus

Let's pretend Red Baker understands Acts 2:38.

Here's his interpretation of the verse,
Acts 2:38,
- then Peter said to them repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for(eis, because of) the forgiveness of sins

This implies their sins were already forgiven (because of)
Therefore Peter is telling them to be baptized because their sins are already forgiven.

You can pretend all you want to do so, yet you did not one things to prove that that was not the reason why Peter said what he said in Acts 2:38. The context proves that those asking the apostles were God faring folks that believe in God.

Acts 2:37​

“Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

Let me ask you this question Titus: Who were the men that came to Jerusalem to worship? Let the Holy Ghost tell us, shall we:

Acts 2:5​

“And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, "devout" men, out of every nation under heaven.”

Titus, what does the word devout mean? "having or showing deep religious feeling or commitment." These men asking Peter the question, were not hard harden Pharisees there to mock Christ and his religion, but were sincere, God fearing people ~ coming from a great distant for the sole purpose of worship, plus their words to Peter after they heard Peter's words, proves beyond a shadow of doubt, these folks were already regenerated, yet desire to do more after hearing of Jesus Christ, much like Cornelius was commanded to do, even though he had already had the gift of the Holy Ghost. When baptized, for baptism, one of a few reason we do so, and command others to follow, is that by baptism we commit our souls to follow Christ, and his teachings so help us God. At baptism, we are baptized into Christ, (Romans 6:3-6) or, into his faith and religion by answering God with a good conscience.

You said: "Therefore Peter is telling them to be baptized because their sins are already forgiven." That's teh scriptural way of doing things, they alone are able to obey and follow with joy such commandments.

Acts 2:38​

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

Meaning you should receive the KNOWLEDGE OF this gift! In the rellgion of Jesus Christ, the promise of the Spirit comes to all of God's children , yet the knowledge of such a wonderful gift, comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. I tis not that hard, if one has the indwelling Spirit and is willing to believe the scriptures over and above the voices that are in the world.

 

[Red Baker]

@praise_yeshua

By all means, define what those fruits are.

Faith, repentance, humility, etc., bottom line, taking side with God against yourself and all other voices that are in this world.

 

[Red Baker]

@praise_yeshua

I confessed to God. I didn't confess to you nor any man. You're are insisting that I confess to you Are you Catholic? My salvation doesn't depend upon you. In fact, I've already openly confessed Christ to YOU and you still insist I'm not saved. You don't even believe what Jesus said in Matthew 10:32-33.

Sir, you said a few things in this post that I thought were very good, and i just want to commend your for it, I'll quote a few with out responding very much.

This dishonest rhetoric that exist between Calvinism and Arminianism is preposterous.

No one was there for in Acts 8:36-37 but one man and God. Who do you think saved this Eunch?

Great point.

What about this "men" requirement you have?

Now, it is time to really deal with your confusion that you preach to others.

You're an Arminian that believes salvation is nothing more than the "smell of smoke". One minute you're saved and the next minute you're not. Thusly, you see everything you believe through this "lens" you're looking through that you've been falsely taught in your life. You are simply repeating what they say. It is their faith. It isn't your faith that you have. It isn't your belief. You got it from them.

Most do.

2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Peter was guilty of lying about his faith in Messiah, Jesus Christ but he wasn't guilty of abandoning his faith. Sometimes as believers, we lie to ourselves and others about the who and what we are. We are not our own. Yet, we sometimes act like. Much like you're doing now. Yet, I'm not the one claiming you're not saved. God knows. I don't.

Christ just doesn't start "denying" us before the Father when we lie about not knowing HIM. Christ knows we are lying about the realty of our faith.

You've taken these facts and ignored them to form your own biased interpretation. This allows you the do what you're doing here. It allows you to be the arbitrator of faith to humanity. I believe you enjoy that role you're claiming for yourself. I believe all Arminians do this to some degree or another.

A seemly very honest observation.

I only care about the Truth and I've become your enemy because I have told you the Truth.

Well said, seemly spoken from a very sincere heart.

 

[Red Baker]

@Titus

Jesus taught no one was in the kingdom until they were baptized by John,
John 3:5,
- Jesus answered,
- ...except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God

Titus, you are not even close in understanding John 3:5. Again, you truly need to learn some Hermeneutics rules, (no pun intended sir,) which is the theory and methodology of interpretation of God words. You should begin with one of the most important rules: context!

John 3:1​

“There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

For now, without spending a lot of time here (I would love to do so, but running short on time at the moment) I will only say a few words.

Titus, if Nicodemus had not asked the question he did in verse four ~ then Jesus would have never mention water in verse five, never! Jesus only mentioned water based on poor Nicodemus' question to him, concerning entering his mother's womb the second time. (which proves that Jesus used the words born again) When explaining the new birth in vss 6-8, water is never mentioned, only the Spirit in connection with being born again. Water, is when one is of born of the flesh, the water break and a child is born into this world. IF Nicodemus could enter the second time into his mother's womb and be born, he still would be born of FLESH, and would need the new birth by the Spirit of God. Jesus was only responding to Nicodemus' question, nothing more.

I can say more about these verse if you desire me to do so. no problem, but for now, enough.

 

[Titus]

How does a calvinist know they are saved/elected?
If good works are the evidence.
Then how can anyone enter heaven without good works ?

Titus, good works are the fruits of the new man that God by His almighty power created within us at regeneration. The old man, or our flesh, has not one good thing in it, that can do spiritual acts pleasing unto God, not one

That is, in my flesh as I'am by nature. So, if a man said he knows God. and does not have Godly fruit in his life to support that confession, then his confession means nothing

You never directly answered my question. My main question of why I started this post/thread etc.

Here it is.
When you give a direct answer, then I'll address your other questions to me.

If good works are the evidence.
Then how can anyone enter heaven without good works ?

If good works are the evidence, then can one be in heaven without good works?

 

[Jim]

Hey there @Red Baker,
I am glad that you made your July 4 journey safely. You have been a busy little bee, with all those replies. I didn't read all of them very closely since I have read most of what you posted many times over the past years. Unfortunately, you are still filling the pages with the nonsense of Augustine and Calvin where soteriology is the subject.

[ I have no desire to be your enemy just to be your enemy, but we are in two different camps as far as our Soteriology is concerned. The difference is bewtween the true gospel of Jesus Christ, and another gospel, which falls under the curse of God according to Galatians 1:6-9.

And that nonsense of Augustine and Calvin is that other gospel that Paul spoke out against in his letter to the Galatians. That is exemplified in the distortion of God's word and its meaning which follows.

Serious errors in this statement, which does reveal a person's lack of true understanding in the true grace of God toward sinners.

1st Peter 5:12​

“By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.”

Part of preaching the true grace of God is to not mixed works with grace when it comes to regeneration. If one does, then that person knows nothing of true grace as taught in the word of God, even though he may preach loud and hard, that does not change the fact that that person is void of true understanding ~he/she knows nothing of pure grace when it comes to regeneration of a sinner from sin and condemnation to life in Jesus Christ.

John 1:11-13​

“He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

Titus, their belief did not give them this power to becomes the sons of God ~God gave some power to become the sons of God~even to them that just believed on his name, like the thief on the cross which I am going to consider since you mentioned him above in one of your posit.

You said: "Their belief did not instantly make them sons." The truth is, that man's belief/faith has never made anyone a son of God ~ the mercy and grace, and power of God, does this work for sinners dead in trespasses and sins. Also, since I'm on this point ~ faith is in most cases id not instantly seen and noticeable, until the word of God is preached, and then the evidence of the spiritual birth can be seen, by the fact the power to see, hear, and obey is there by the new birth.

You are correct when you say that man's belief/faith has never made anyone a son of God. It is without question, God who makes one a son of God. A man's belief/faith is what God sees in the man and it is that man whom God gives the right to become a son of God.

As John 1:11 says, not all those to whom Jesus came received him. That is those did not receive Jesus as the Messiah. They rejected Him and eventually they would put Him to death as prophesied. But according to verse 12 some did receive him, meaning they did not reject him but acknowledged Jesus to be the Messiah sent from God. Those few during his life then did receive Him and many more did so after His death. These, that is those who received Jesus as the Messiah, are the ones whom God selected to become sons of God. both then and now. I would point out that the word "power" in the KJV of verse 12 is a poor choice. It is better, as is done in nearly all the rest of the English versions, translated as the right to become sons of God. As verse 13 points out, the right to become sons of God did not come through their lineage as Jews or through the acts of man, but rather through God's redeeming action.

That pertains not just to those present in Jesus' time but for all of history from that time to this very day and beyond. Those who receive Jesus Christ as the Messiah, those who believe in His name, are given the right to become sons of God,

And with that I will leave it to those to whom you replied to respond to the rest of that other gospel that you presented.

 

[Red Baker]

@Titus

Here it is.
When you give a direct answer, then I'll address your other questions to me.

Btw, there's other post that I have made to you that you never address, yet you desire for me to answer one question? Titus, I'll be more than happy to do so, and at any time you feel that I have never addressed your concerns enough, then by all means bring it to my attention, and then I will.

If good works are the evidence.
Then how can anyone enter heaven without good works ?

Very simple Titus, we have eternal life based on what Christ secured for God's elect, not what they have done, or not done. The only way one can enter into life is to be perfectly obedience to God's law, which no man can, yet Christ did for all those that were part of the elect body, Christ being the head thereof.

Titus, was Abraham a righteous man? of course he was. How about Lot? of course he was, both were made so by what Christ did for each one. legally speaking, there is no difference between the two; practically, yes, but that has no bearing on whether or not one receives eternal life in the world to come, that's determined by what Christ did for each one given to him of his Father to redeem.

then can one be in heaven without good works?

Will infants , young folks go heaven? There is not such things as the age of accountability since we all were accountable in Adam. Will feebleminded folks go? Will many heathens go; will OT folks go, who never ever heard of the name of Jesus Christ, nor ever heard of a true preacher of the gospel?

Titus, I do believe with all my heart, (based upon many scriptures) that those men who have heard and yet continue living in sin be they as religious as they can be, will died in their sins, let's make that very clear. I'm now short on time, but will respond to any more questions that you may have as time permits.

We can look at Roman 5:12-19 if you like, no problem.

 

[Titus]

Will infants , young folks go heaven?

Yes they have no sin therefore in no need of Christs redemption. Christ died to save sinners.
This does not pertain to my question.

There is not such things as the age of accountability since we all were accountable in Adam.

No. No one is guilty of another mans sins.
Would you support a criminal justice system that punished all your future generations for the crimes you committed? Would it be just to put your son in prison for your crimes? Is that a moral system?
I know you wouldn't, yet you support a legal system that charges the innocent with another mans sin.
Since you dont believe in any age of accountability. Aborted babies do go to hell in your religion. Or are you going to contradict yourself and claim they dont? Plenty of calvinist's that claim babies dont go to hell. Sounds hypocritical when they also claim there is no age of accountability.

Very simple Titus, we have eternal life based on what Christ secured for God's elect, not what they have done, or not done.

So now you have contradicted yourself.
You said the evidence of election is the fruit of the Spirit.
No fruit, no evidence.
No evidence, then their confession of election is counterfeit.

That is, in my flesh as I'am by nature. So, if a man said he knows God. and does not have Godly fruit in his life to support that confession, then his confession means nothing.

Now you are claiming the opposite.

Very simple Titus, we have eternal life based on what Christ secured for God's elect, not what they have done, or not done

So now no fruit is nessary as proof of election.

Which is it?
Must produce fruit for their election.
Or
Needs no fruit as proof of election?

This is doublespeak.

Very simple Titus, we have eternal life based on what Christ secured for God's elect, not what they have done, or not done (fruits of the Spirit)

That is, in my flesh as I'am by nature. So, if a man said he knows God. and does not have Godly fruit in his life to support that confession, then his confession means nothing

 

[Titus]

yet Christ died for all those that were part of the elect body,

No,
Christ died for wicked sinners not some "elect body".

Titus 3:3- 5,
- for we ourselves also once were foolish disobedient deceived enslaved to various lusts and pleasures spending our life in malice and envy, despicable hating one another
- but when the kindness of God our Savior toward man appeared
- not by works of righteousness we have done but according to His mercy He saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit

Paul told Titus that Jesus chose to save the lost. The lost that He chose to save had no good works of righteousness at the time He chose to save them.

Christ literally died on the cross for His enemies.
Not those who did works of righteousness.
Not any preselected group of elected elites.
He died to save sinners from their wicked works.

Titus 2:12, 13
- for the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men

 

[Red Baker]

@Titus

This is doublespeak.

Titus, it not double talk, the problem is with you not being able to follow properly, plus you have your blinders on toward the doctrine of free grace with out the works of the law/flesh, etc. You only see what you want to see, if the truth was known ~ at least this is true of one of us, and being an old solider ready to take my armor off, I'm 100% convince it us you for many solid biblical reason reasons ~ which I my make a post tomorrow concerning this. But first, let me address your present post, which I'm sure I'll never be able to answer your post in the way that you think it has been address, while all along you have evaded my post for the most part. . Not one that I did late last might and early morning, but some even before those.

Before I start, I want to point out something you did that was very deceitful on your part, you posted:

Red Baker said:
Very simple Titus, we have eternal life based on what Christ secured for God's elect, not what they have done, or not done (fruits of the Spirit)

Why did you add in bold letters something I did not post? "(fruits of the Spirit)" My exact quote was this:

Very simple Titus, we have eternal life based on what Christ secured for God's elect, not what they have done, or not done.

YOU added (fruits of the Spirit)...."Why" did you do that, you no doubt broke a very serious rule, not to mention being deceitful in doing so. You owe me an apology. When you quote me. do so exactly as I have spoken. regardless what you may think I believe or do not believe. Dishonestly is evil, and God's people should never engage in being dishonest in any thing we say or do. No problem you saying that you know I believe something, yet please, never put me in a quote box and then add to it, as though those were my exact words.

I'm coming back and finish with this post of yours after I fulfill an obligation.

 

[TibiasDad]

Brightframe is not really a calvinist. so he says.

If it looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck…

Doug

 

[Titus]

YOU added (fruits of the Spirit)...."Why" did you do that, you no doubt broke a very serious rule, not to mention being deceitful in doing so. You owe me an apology

Sir, you are not making sense.
I am simply pointing out what you have said.


You said our election, is NOT based upon what we do or what we dont do.

Very simple Titus, we have eternal life based on what Christ secured for God's elect, not what they have done, or not done

If I'm being deceitful, then you tell me what you are referring to ?
What is the not done?
What is this referring to?



What is the what they(elect) have done referring to?

You are discussing the elect in this post.
You are teaching their election is not based upon what they do or what they dont do.

in this post, you are answering my question:

How does a calvinist know they are saved/elected?
If good works are the evidence.
Then how can anyone enter heaven without good works ?

Heres your answer,

Very simple Titus, we have eternal life based on what Christ secured for God's elect, not what they have done, or not done.

I asked if the Elect need works(fruits of the Spirit) as evidence to get to heaven.
You said, Election and eternal life is NOT based upon anything we do or dont do.
The things the elect does would be their good works(fruit of the Spirit).
The things they have not done would be, not producing fruit of the Spirit( good works).
That's why I put fruit of the Spirit next to your words,

God's elect, not what they have done, or not done.

They have done( good works, fruit of the Spirit.
What the elect have not done,( no fruit of the Spirit, no good works)

If that is not what these words mean.
Then what do they refer to?

That is, in my flesh as I'am by nature. So, if a man said he knows God. and does not have Godly fruit in his life to support that confession, then his confession means nothing.

Above, you claim their confession is counterfeit if they produce no fruit of the Spirit.
Then you claim election is not based on any fruit they produce or fruit the dont produce.

Very simple Titus, we have eternal life based on what Christ secured for God's elect, not what they have done, or not done

Your teaching contradicts itself. It is doublespeak.
And I am not guilty of any deception or dishonesty.
You can apologize to me.

Doublespeak definition: the ability to hold two contradictory beliefs simultaneously and manipulate language.

 

[Titus]

If it looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck…

Doug

He reported me(Eternally Greatful)
And I never called him a Calvinist(Eternally Greatfull).
Yet Eternally Grateful says others are Calvinist's(Brightfame52) even when they deny they are.

Brightframe is not really a calvinist. so he says

he is 100 % a 5 point Calvinist who says tulip, the doctrines of grace is the gospel

I know he is. He just deny's it when you call him out.

So, Eternally Grateful reported me for supposedly calling him a calvinist(I did not).
Because Eternally Grateful does not want to be referred to as a calvinist.

Yet Eternally Grateful, calls others like Brightfame52 a calvinist even though Brightfame52, does not want to be referred to as a Calvinist.

What then do you call a person that does the very thing they accuse you of doing?

 

[TibiasDad]

What then do you call a person that does the very thing they accuse you of doing?

Worthy of prayer…

Doug

 

[atpollard]

You asked …

Now explain how faith alone apart from good works saves/elects and gives one a home in heaven since this supposed salvation has no evidence of election?

And answered …

This is a misrepresentation of what I believe.
I've never believed in meritorious salvation or works salvation.
Never will.
Ephesians 2:8-9 ; 10

… your own question.
See, you do know how one can be saved by “faith alone” and “good works” are not required to achieve a “meritorious salvation”.

 

[atpollard]

Brightframe is not really a calvinist. so he says.

If it looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck…
Doug

I am in no position to make pronouncements on what @brightfame52 believes or does not believe, however, just for the sake of argument, what EXACTLY is a “Calvinist”?

If a “Calvinist” must believe everything that John Calvin taught, then anyone embracing “Limited Atonement” (which I believe @brightfame52 does) cannot be a “Calvinist” (since John Calvin did not accept Limited Atonement).

If a “Calvinist” must agree with everything published at the Synod of Dort (where Arminianism was formally addressed with the official Reformed Response), or accept the teaching of the Westminster Confession of Faith, then no CREDOBAPTIST is a “Calvinist” since both explicitly embrace a PAEDO- view of the covenant and salvation (typical of Presbyterians).

So it is important that “Calvinism” is clearly defined if one is to really discuss who is, or is not, a “Calvinist”. [As a Particular Baptist, I embrace the Doctrines of Grace - TULIP - while rejecting many other ‘Presbyterian’ and ‘Reformed’ beliefs.]

 

[Titus]

You asked …


And answered …


… your own question.
See, you do know how one can be saved by “faith alone” and “good works” are not required to achieve a “meritorious salvation”.

No Sir, works in the new testament are not all the same.
There are good works and evil works.

This is a misrepresentation of what I believe.
I've never believed in meritorious salvation or works salvation.(apart, separate from grace)
Never will.
Ephesians 2:8-9 ; 10

We are not saved by meritorious works, Ephesians 2:8-9
We are not saved by obedient works alone, James 2:24.
We are not saved by works alone.

Nothing saves alone.
We are saved by grace, Titus 2:11
We are saved by belief, John 3:16
We are saved by obedient faith, James 2:24; Romans 6:17-18

Salvation is a grace based system because salvation is undeserved and cannot be earned.
The Bible never teaches anything alone saves us. That is a fable of mans imagination.

 

[Titus]

If a “Calvinist” must believe everything that John Calvin taught, then anyone embracing “Limited Atonement” (which I believe @brightfame52 does) cannot be a “Calvinist” (since John Calvin did not accept Limited Atonement).

Sir, John Calvin absolutely believed in Limited Atonement.

Heres a quote from Calvin:
" I pray for them: I pray not for the world. Hence we infer that the grace of God is offered to  few and that not all men are equally favored with it. Christ says that He intercedes not for the world because He is solicitous for His own flock only, which He has undertaken to keep."

 

[Titus]

Now explain how faith alone apart from good works saves/elects and gives one a home in heaven since this supposed salvation has no evidence of election?

This is a misrepresentation of what I believe.
I've never believed in meritorious salvation or works salvation.
Never will.
Ephesians 2:8-9 ; 10

… your own question.
See, you do know how one can be saved by “faith alone” and “good works” are not required to achieve a “meritorious salvation”

Where did I say we are saved by faith alone?
I believe repentance is required not just faith, Acts 17:30.
Repentance is a work.
That doesn't make salvation by works no more than it makes salvation by faith alone.

 

[TibiasDad]

what EXACTLY is a “Calvinist”?

In this forum, the primary focus is the soteriological differences between Arminianism and Calvinism, which began in ernest in the early 1600s. TULIP, as we define it today, came sometime later, but the principles they espouse have become the template for Calvin’s general direction of thought.

If someone holds to these principles, they are Reformed in their thinking, for which “Calvinist” is shorthand.

There are 4-point Calvinists who are probably more akin to Calvin’s own thinking, whose beliefs about limit atonement are not as ridged. But in general the idea of the predetermining decree of God that fixed the fate of all before creation began and the logical consequences of it are Calvinistic principles.

Doug