And you don't see Calvinism where it is.
You have seen me even cough, let alone my "actions".
Need a reason to believe Calvinists are who they claim to be?
- Thread starter Titus
- Start date
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Oh I know but ask him. He Denys it lol
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
A Calvinist teaches total depravity. Staring a person can not come to God unless God makes them alive first
You think you’re going to come back with false accusations? You just proved once again you don’t”t know what you’re talking about. Origional sin is not a Calvin theory. I. Adam all die. That includes you and me
Only with your weird way of thinking.
Bob Carabbio
Active Member
Same as anybody else - WHEN you're CONVICTED OF YOUR SIN by the Holy SPirit, then by definition you're "Elect", since you've been gifted with the FAITH that will allow you to become born again (Eph 2:8,9). The "ISMS" aren't all that important, since they're nothing but man's "Theology". The one primary thing that Calvin got right is: IN ALL THINGS, GOD MOVES FIRST!!!!
"Good works" are the NATURAL RESULT of being born again, but in no way the "Cause" of it.
As Spurgeon said, A "Faith (so called) that doesn't CHANGE A PERSON, won't save them either.
Titus
Active Member
John Calvin deeply admired Augustine of Hippo.
He quoted him more than anyone else.
John Calvin formed many of his beliefs from Augustine
You need to study John Calvin.
Get some books on him to better understand that Total depravity was born from Original Sin.
Calvin leaned on Augustine more than any other man.
He believed him to be the greatest theologian.
What false accusation?
I don't know what your talking about?
I have one question.
Are we born sinners?
What do you mean by "convicted of your sin"?
Titus
Active Member
Hello, nice to meet you.
Is it possible to be in heaven without any good works?
No Sir,
Calvanist are not saved like everyone.
God saves them directly through miraculous working.
Even faith is not their own. God does the work of faith in them.
God does the repenting in them.
They claim they are even saved before they believe the gospel.
In order to believe the gospel they must first be born again, regeneration.
Your own explanation of how a calvinist is saved runs backwards from how they teach one is saved.
Calvinist salvation: regenerated in order to become believers.
Your teaching on how calvinist's are saved:
You correctly stated the process one goes through to be saved,
Faith allows you to become born again.
Calvinism: born again allows you to become a believer. Just the opposite of your teaching.
You taught the process of being saved the Biblical way perfectly. Amen.
John 1:12,
- but as many as received Jesus to them He gave them the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name
Those who believe in Jesus have the right to become sons of God(saved). Biblical process.
Calvinism: those first born again have the right to become believers in Jesus. Unbiblical.
Love you Sir.
One more question you mentioned Ephesians 2:8-9.
Do you know how the Ephesians were saved?
Its recorded in the new testament.
civic
Active Member
and original guilt.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
That does not mean I am a Calvinist or hold to Calvinist theology
Dude I reported you before for making false accusations. Don’t think I will not do it again
One thing I can not stand are proud people who refuse to humble themselves to understand they made a mistake and keep attacking over and over people who do not believe what they are accused of believing
I know what John Calvin believed and taught. I reject the 5 points. Now I pray tell I do not have to tell you people this again
Bob Carabbio
Active Member
Sure. salvation has nothing to do with "Good Works" - only FAITH in the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the cross. assuming there's time between Being Born again and dying physically, "Good works" will happen. Salvation, on the other hand, is 100% as soon as the FAITH is there.
Actually they are. what their "Theology" claims is unimportant.
Unimportant. it's only "just another" theology - not God's WORD.
Titus
Active Member
It doesn't bother me one bit that you reported me.
Let whoever read through our conversation and they can judge for themselves if I've done anything against you.
I've not lied to you once.
I've not once tried to misrepresent you.
All the claims you've made against me are rooted in you're dislike of me. So you always in your mind think my motives must be nefarious since I'm an "evil " meritorious works based salvationist" (I'm not, and I've told Eternally Grateful to stop accusing me of this)
You read my comments and think of the worst instead of maybe just maybe he's being sincere. No, you would never give me the benefit of the doubt.
You yourself said you do not believe in any of the five points in TUILP.
So then, to help me understand if you understand what you are claiming.
I asked if you believe we sr born in sin.
That is the main doctrine you find in Calvinism.
If you dont want to be called a calvinist. I respect that, so I wont call you one.
btw, please quote me calling you a calvinist if you think I have.
I have not.
Specifically name the false allegations I supposedly made against you?
Better yet quote me.
I'd rather be friends than enemies,
Galatians 4:16
Titus
Active Member
Oh, now I understand what you are saying. My apologies.
And I agree. We are all saved the same way. Amen.
Amen, only the gospel of Jesus Christ saves, Romans 1:16.
Heres where I don't agree. How so? Faith itself is a good work, John 6:28-29.
Are you teaching salvation and faith are instantaneous?
If so I cant agree here either.
For example,
John 1:12,
- but as many as received Him to them He gave power to become sons of God, even to them that believe on His name
John teaches that believers have the power to become sons of God.
Therefore their belief gave them power to become sons.
Their belief did not instantly make them sons.
Titus
Active Member
Bob, Ephesians 2:8-9, do you know where the Ephesians were saved in the new testament?
Titus
Active Member
Good night Sir
@Titus
Titus I just read through the posts so I could get somewhat caught up. Somewhat, meaning I have no desire to follow every single words that other say, but have overall a good understanding of what has been said since I last posted. I'm going to focus for the most part of some verses that you have given your understanding on, which I disagree with, which it should be no surprise to you, no more it is to me when you disagree with me. Titus, I have no desire to be your enemy just to be your enemy, but we are in two different camps as far as our Soteriology is concerned. The difference is bewtween the true gospel of Jesus Christ, and another gospel, which falls under the curse of God according to Galatians 1:6-9. Please consider the following and we can discuss each separately if you desire to do so, and I would gladly oblige you in a godly manner as long as that is feasible, which it should be, but very seldom happens, at great lengths, but we we see.
Part of preaching the true grace of God is to not mixed works with grace when it comes to regeneration. If one does, then that person knows nothing of true grace as taught in the word of God, even though he may preach loud and hard, that does not change the fact that that person is void of true understanding ~he/she knows nothing of pure grace when it comes to regeneration of a sinner from sin and condemnation to life in Jesus Christ.
Titus, their belief did not give them this power to becomes the sons of God ~God gave some power to become the sons of God~even to them that just believed on his name, like the thief on the cross which I am going to consider since you mentioned him above in one of your posit.
You said: "Their belief did not instantly make them sons." The truth is, that man's belief/faith has never made anyone a son of God ~ the mercy and grace, and power of God, does this work for sinners dead in trespasses and sins. Also, since I'm on this point ~ faith is in most cases id not instantly seen and noticeable, until the word of God is preached, and then the evidence of the spiritual birth can be seen, by the fact the power to see, hear, and obey is there by the new birth.
John John 1:13 proves my point, and exposes your faulty understanding. Titus, John 1:13 is the Holy Ghost's commentary on verse 12!
I have a few more of your errors in your understanding of the scriptures. I'll make separate posit for each.
Just got Back home late this afternoon ~great feeling to be back in my comfort zone, as I'm sure others would say the same.
Titus I just read through the posts so I could get somewhat caught up. Somewhat, meaning I have no desire to follow every single words that other say, but have overall a good understanding of what has been said since I last posted. I'm going to focus for the most part of some verses that you have given your understanding on, which I disagree with, which it should be no surprise to you, no more it is to me when you disagree with me. Titus, I have no desire to be your enemy just to be your enemy, but we are in two different camps as far as our Soteriology is concerned. The difference is bewtween the true gospel of Jesus Christ, and another gospel, which falls under the curse of God according to Galatians 1:6-9. Please consider the following and we can discuss each separately if you desire to do so, and I would gladly oblige you in a godly manner as long as that is feasible, which it should be, but very seldom happens, at great lengths, but we we see.
Serious errors in this statement, which does reveal a person's lack of true understanding in the true grace of God toward sinners.
1st Peter 5:12
“By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.”Part of preaching the true grace of God is to not mixed works with grace when it comes to regeneration. If one does, then that person knows nothing of true grace as taught in the word of God, even though he may preach loud and hard, that does not change the fact that that person is void of true understanding ~he/she knows nothing of pure grace when it comes to regeneration of a sinner from sin and condemnation to life in Jesus Christ.
John 1:11-13
“He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”Titus, their belief did not give them this power to becomes the sons of God ~God gave some power to become the sons of God~even to them that just believed on his name, like the thief on the cross which I am going to consider since you mentioned him above in one of your posit.
You said: "Their belief did not instantly make them sons." The truth is, that man's belief/faith has never made anyone a son of God ~ the mercy and grace, and power of God, does this work for sinners dead in trespasses and sins. Also, since I'm on this point ~ faith is in most cases id not instantly seen and noticeable, until the word of God is preached, and then the evidence of the spiritual birth can be seen, by the fact the power to see, hear, and obey is there by the new birth.
John John 1:13 proves my point, and exposes your faulty understanding. Titus, John 1:13 is the Holy Ghost's commentary on verse 12!
I have a few more of your errors in your understanding of the scriptures. I'll make separate posit for each.
@Ttius
Titus, no pun intended just to be your enemy, but you sir, have some serious interpretations to be corrected, and if not, you will "never" arrive at the truth as it is in Jesus Christ. Our desire is that you will.
Here is the true understanding of Ephesians 2:8 ~ based upon the true gospel of Jesus Christ, keeping it as pure as possible without man's seeking to add his works into what Christ secured for his people, by himself ~when he cried out IT IS FINISHED!
In Ephesians 2:8 we have a classic example of an metonymy. The "only" faith that saves us legally is the faith of Christ, for no man can have faith in God, the faith that meets the requirement of a Royal law, a faith that is produce by perfect obedience to its laws! Jesus Christ "alone" had the faith that honoured God's law in all points, from conception, to death, in thoughts, words, and deeds ~ and this faith alone is the means of man's free justification. This faith is "not of ourselves", it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. This faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ. (John 1:12)
When a man hears and believes, it is not the old man (for that is impossible) but his new man that is a creative work in God's elect by the almighty power of God ~ this birth happens to a child of God sometimes after conception and before death, and is evidenced by faith and obedience to the word of God. Two prime examples of this is John the the Baptist and the thief on the cross.
I could spend more time proving the metonymy in Ephesians 2:8 by the context in just before verse 8, in verses: 4-6..."But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
We were IN CHRIST from all eternity, even while he lived in this world and in his death and resurrection, which secured our redemption for us. What he did, it was as though we did it, what happen to Christ happened to us legally speaking two thousand years ago.
Titus, do not just say this is wrong, you must prove that it is, or, your opinion means absolutely nothing.
Titus, let me ask you this question: "do you know where/how the Ephesians were saved in the new testament?
Titus, no pun intended just to be your enemy, but you sir, have some serious interpretations to be corrected, and if not, you will "never" arrive at the truth as it is in Jesus Christ. Our desire is that you will.
Here is the true understanding of Ephesians 2:8 ~ based upon the true gospel of Jesus Christ, keeping it as pure as possible without man's seeking to add his works into what Christ secured for his people, by himself ~when he cried out IT IS FINISHED!
In Ephesians 2:8 we have a classic example of an metonymy. The "only" faith that saves us legally is the faith of Christ, for no man can have faith in God, the faith that meets the requirement of a Royal law, a faith that is produce by perfect obedience to its laws! Jesus Christ "alone" had the faith that honoured God's law in all points, from conception, to death, in thoughts, words, and deeds ~ and this faith alone is the means of man's free justification. This faith is "not of ourselves", it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. This faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ. (John 1:12)
When a man hears and believes, it is not the old man (for that is impossible) but his new man that is a creative work in God's elect by the almighty power of God ~ this birth happens to a child of God sometimes after conception and before death, and is evidenced by faith and obedience to the word of God. Two prime examples of this is John the the Baptist and the thief on the cross.
I could spend more time proving the metonymy in Ephesians 2:8 by the context in just before verse 8, in verses: 4-6..."But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
We were IN CHRIST from all eternity, even while he lived in this world and in his death and resurrection, which secured our redemption for us. What he did, it was as though we did it, what happen to Christ happened to us legally speaking two thousand years ago.
Titus, do not just say this is wrong, you must prove that it is, or, your opinion means absolutely nothing.
@Titus
You folks are not listening to what Paul is saying, here and in 1st Corinthians 1, where Paul taught the very same truth as here.
This verse and the next are glorious, and they belong in our camp, not the works gospel mongers, who daily abuse them.
We agree with Paul that the gospel has content that makes it the greatest news ever told. Your camp do not know how the gospel is God’s power nor how faith relates to righteousness. You and others see the gospel an offer of synergistic salvation for jails, not Roman believers (1:15).
This verse and the next are the basis and summary of Paul’s doctrine for the next 11 chapters. These two verses provide the germ of Paul’s argument for his instruction to the Romans. Consider the gospel … power of God … salvation … every one that believeth … Jews and Greeks … righteousness of God … revealed … faith … and the just.
For I am not ashamed.
As the coordinating conjunction for indicates, this verse is connected to the previous one. Paul was not ashamed to preach the gospel to these believers in Rome also (1:11-15). Paul preached to kings, by a river, to philosophers, to honorable women, in a hired house with his own soldier, to a jailor, to barbarians, in tongues, in synagogues, to Roman soldiers, to the Jewish leadership, in Hebrew, to Caesar’s household, in Illyricum, etc.
Of the gospel of Christ.
The gospel of Christ should be properly understood to avoid confusion about its nature. Gospel. The Old English godspel = good tidings: god (good) + spel (to announce). Our English scriptures are sufficient to provide the same definition (Rom 10:15; Is 52:7). The word gospel as a simple noun means good news, glad tidings, joyful information, etc. The gospel reveals news (1:17), brings life to light (2nd Timothy 1:10), and publishes (Isaiah 53:7).
For it is the power of God.
Titus, The sense in which the gospel is God’s power is a very crucial and critical distinction.
Many hold the gospel as having sacramental power itself or as the potent means that can bring about the eternal salvation of those that were previously dead and damned in sin. Many believe election is fully conditional on man’s reception of the gospel. We deny. Many believe the merits of Christ’s death depend on his belief of the gospel. We deny. Many believe reception of the gospel is the powerful means of regeneration. We deny.
Rather than the gospel itself being God’s power, we understand it to reveal God’s power. Rather than the gospel itself being God’s power, believers are informed of God’s power. Rather than the gospel itself being God’s power, it is received by some as telling of it. Rather than the gospel itself being God’s power, it is perceived as disclosing it by some. The immediate context says the gospel reveals salvation, but is not salvation itself (1:17). The gospel is the good news or glad tidings or joyful information about God’s power. The sense of the phrase is simple – for the good news is the power of God unto salvation! The wording here should be compared to the fuller, plainer passage in 1st Corinthians 1:18-24.
To those perishing the gospel is foolishness, but those saved perceive it as God’s power. Is the gospel intrinsically, literally, or actually foolishness? No, it is only heard as such! Jewish minds stumbled due to Jewish fables; Greek minds considered it beneath them. But those chosen to salvation considered it a revelation of God’s power and wisdom.
But Jesus denied the gospel had power of its own to save men, no matter what methods were used to enhance it to an unregenerate audience (Luke 16:27-31; John 5:39-40). God must work His great power in us before we can or will believe the gospel – the same power that raised Jesus from the dead (Eph 1:19-20; 2:1-7). The gospel brings forth into activity what God has previously worked in us, including the gift and grace of faith (Phil 2:12-13; Galatians 5:23; 2nd Peter 1:15). Paul did not carry the gospel to powerfully regenerate at Rome’s malls, prisons, hospitals, orphanages, Coliseum, or brothels – he wanted to preach it to the Roman saints (1:8-15)! The gospel does not bring life and immortality – it only brings it to light (2nd Timothy 1:9,10). The gospel does not bring reconciliation – it is only the good word of it (II Cor 5:18-21).
Unto salvation.
The gospel, or good news, or glad tidings, brings the information of how God saves men. God has powerfully saved His elect, and the gospel of Christ tells believing elect about it! The only salvation coming by way of the gospel is one of assurance, comfort, and understanding, not one of eternal life from hellfire to heaven.
To every one that believeth.
These words are important ~the gospel is the power of God ONLY to those that believe, to all others it is foolishness. Besides the next verse proves that our understanding is the correct one: Romans 1:17...........
"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed "from faith to faith": as it is written, The just shall live by faith."
You can only reveal the righteousness of God that is in the gospel of Jesus Christ from a person who has faith, to another person that has faith based upon Paul's words right before us in Romans 1:17. He said the same thing here:
Here's another one, that you and others miss the truth that Paul is teaching God's children.
Romans 1:16,17
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."You folks are not listening to what Paul is saying, here and in 1st Corinthians 1, where Paul taught the very same truth as here.
This verse and the next are glorious, and they belong in our camp, not the works gospel mongers, who daily abuse them.
We agree with Paul that the gospel has content that makes it the greatest news ever told. Your camp do not know how the gospel is God’s power nor how faith relates to righteousness. You and others see the gospel an offer of synergistic salvation for jails, not Roman believers (1:15).
This verse and the next are the basis and summary of Paul’s doctrine for the next 11 chapters. These two verses provide the germ of Paul’s argument for his instruction to the Romans. Consider the gospel … power of God … salvation … every one that believeth … Jews and Greeks … righteousness of God … revealed … faith … and the just.
For I am not ashamed.
As the coordinating conjunction for indicates, this verse is connected to the previous one. Paul was not ashamed to preach the gospel to these believers in Rome also (1:11-15). Paul preached to kings, by a river, to philosophers, to honorable women, in a hired house with his own soldier, to a jailor, to barbarians, in tongues, in synagogues, to Roman soldiers, to the Jewish leadership, in Hebrew, to Caesar’s household, in Illyricum, etc.
Of the gospel of Christ.
The gospel of Christ should be properly understood to avoid confusion about its nature. Gospel. The Old English godspel = good tidings: god (good) + spel (to announce). Our English scriptures are sufficient to provide the same definition (Rom 10:15; Is 52:7). The word gospel as a simple noun means good news, glad tidings, joyful information, etc. The gospel reveals news (1:17), brings life to light (2nd Timothy 1:10), and publishes (Isaiah 53:7).
For it is the power of God.
Titus, The sense in which the gospel is God’s power is a very crucial and critical distinction.
Many hold the gospel as having sacramental power itself or as the potent means that can bring about the eternal salvation of those that were previously dead and damned in sin. Many believe election is fully conditional on man’s reception of the gospel. We deny. Many believe the merits of Christ’s death depend on his belief of the gospel. We deny. Many believe reception of the gospel is the powerful means of regeneration. We deny.
Rather than the gospel itself being God’s power, we understand it to reveal God’s power. Rather than the gospel itself being God’s power, believers are informed of God’s power. Rather than the gospel itself being God’s power, it is received by some as telling of it. Rather than the gospel itself being God’s power, it is perceived as disclosing it by some. The immediate context says the gospel reveals salvation, but is not salvation itself (1:17). The gospel is the good news or glad tidings or joyful information about God’s power. The sense of the phrase is simple – for the good news is the power of God unto salvation! The wording here should be compared to the fuller, plainer passage in 1st Corinthians 1:18-24.
To those perishing the gospel is foolishness, but those saved perceive it as God’s power. Is the gospel intrinsically, literally, or actually foolishness? No, it is only heard as such! Jewish minds stumbled due to Jewish fables; Greek minds considered it beneath them. But those chosen to salvation considered it a revelation of God’s power and wisdom.
But Jesus denied the gospel had power of its own to save men, no matter what methods were used to enhance it to an unregenerate audience (Luke 16:27-31; John 5:39-40). God must work His great power in us before we can or will believe the gospel – the same power that raised Jesus from the dead (Eph 1:19-20; 2:1-7). The gospel brings forth into activity what God has previously worked in us, including the gift and grace of faith (Phil 2:12-13; Galatians 5:23; 2nd Peter 1:15). Paul did not carry the gospel to powerfully regenerate at Rome’s malls, prisons, hospitals, orphanages, Coliseum, or brothels – he wanted to preach it to the Roman saints (1:8-15)! The gospel does not bring life and immortality – it only brings it to light (2nd Timothy 1:9,10). The gospel does not bring reconciliation – it is only the good word of it (II Cor 5:18-21).
Unto salvation.
The gospel, or good news, or glad tidings, brings the information of how God saves men. God has powerfully saved His elect, and the gospel of Christ tells believing elect about it! The only salvation coming by way of the gospel is one of assurance, comfort, and understanding, not one of eternal life from hellfire to heaven.
To every one that believeth.
These words are important ~the gospel is the power of God ONLY to those that believe, to all others it is foolishness. Besides the next verse proves that our understanding is the correct one: Romans 1:17...........
"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed "from faith to faith": as it is written, The just shall live by faith."
You can only reveal the righteousness of God that is in the gospel of Jesus Christ from a person who has faith, to another person that has faith based upon Paul's words right before us in Romans 1:17. He said the same thing here:
1st Corinthians 1:18
“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”@praise_yeshua
I quoted Romans 8:8,9 just in case someone attempts to say 1st Corinthians 2:14, is not for us, but only is speaking of the apostles. Those who are unlearned will wrest, as they do others scriptures just as Peter said. But, they do so at their own destruction, which are sobering words.
No assumption, but, I'm sure others would simply accept what you have written as the truth, becuase of their bias opinions against the scriptures and because they want to believe this is so, when in fact, it is more wishfully thinking on your and their part, certainly not truth in light of Jesus' very own words:
Matthew 16:17
“And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”Well that's a given, but it is not what the Lord Jesus said.
Not apart from God first giving the Spirit of God to them in the new birth when he comes to live in our new man that has been created after the image of Jesus Christ.
1st Corinthians 2:14
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”Romans 8:8,9
“So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”I quoted Romans 8:8,9 just in case someone attempts to say 1st Corinthians 2:14, is not for us, but only is speaking of the apostles. Those who are unlearned will wrest, as they do others scriptures just as Peter said. But, they do so at their own destruction, which are sobering words.
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