Need a reason to believe Calvinists are who they claim to be?

[Jim]

You need to correct your understanding.

That is likely a true statement, at least about some things, but not with respect to your reply to what I posted.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Simple Sir.
I think you have over analyzed possibly? I really dont know why thus is difficult.

You're oversimplifying. Which is why the argument doesn't work.

Demons believe in God. Obviously they know about God.
They also have faith that Jesus is God.
They knew Jesus before man knew Him.

That's all James point is..

No it is not. The context is set in "what can save humanity". It is why I referenced what you left out earlier.

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Christ didn't come to save devils. Christ didn't offer salvation to devils. Fallen angels don't have the opportunity to believe. Which makes the comparison silly and rudimentary. There is an "object" of faith. It is an unlearned argument that you do not find anywhere else in what you even classify as the Scriptures. What you have faith in, establishes the validity of faith.

He's telling his audience it's good to believe in God.
Just like his audience already does.
But belief alone cannot do anything for them.
Just as the demons faith cannot do anything for them because they are already damned.

No. That is your spin. It is a direct comparison to the inability of the faith of devils to save them and the inability of man faith to save them absent works. However, faith saves alone.

James 2:19, 20
- you believe there is one God you do well(its good you believe in God)
the devils also believe and tremble(they believe which is good but their faith is not obedient faith it is dead) .

Again. Listen. They have NOTHING to believe in. Nothing to TRUST in. Nothing to believe. They can't believe that Christ died for them because HE DIDN'T......

- but do you want to know O foolish man that faith without works is dead

Thats the kind of faith the demons have!!!!!
All they got is belief but no obedience to God.
Therefore if all you have is what the demons have your faith also is dead, worthless it profits you not.

I could on and on but you're so caught up in this that I doubt anything I say will change anything you believe. I'll go a little further but you need to start admitting where you're wrong in this.

This argument you're defending MUST suppose that devils can have faith without works. Get it? That devils can have faith without works. They can't. Get it? Stop. Think......

I asked you what the women and centurion did to elicit the response of Christ "great faith". You haven't answered this because you can't.

James 2:24,
- you see that a man is justified by works(obedience) and not by faith alone(same faith as the demons no obedience only belief in God

You've gotten James argument right here. However, James is wrong. Again. My answer to this "James" is YES.

Faith without works of any kind can save. I know it does. It happened to me. Yet, here I am trying to do the work God has given me and you believe I'm devoid of faith. I'm doing exactly what I believe. This is the most sincerest/mature form of faith. Doing what you believe. It is not the smallest of faith. Salvation begins with the smallest of faith. It then GROWS. To whom much given. Much is required. I have more requirements than you do. I know more than you do. I have practiced my faith for many many years. I know what it is to succeed and more importantly, I know what it is to fail.

Our works are never meritorious. They can't be. Even saved, we continue to fail. There is no man upon the earth that does good and sins not. No man.

Belief is better than unbelief but if that's all your faith is then you cannot be justified.

I've got Bible study and worship to go to. Take care friend.

It was enough for the women that Jesus called a dog. It was enough for the centurion that only asked that Christ speak a word for him to heal his son.

When Paul came down to end of his life having dedicated most of his adult life to the Gospel in ways I can only dream of doing..... He simply said....

I have keep the faith!

I don't believe you really understand faith as well as you think you do. That might well be the case for this person we reference as "James" you're quoting.

Thank you for the kind words!

 

[praise_yeshua]

That is likely a true statement, at least about some things, but not with respect to your reply to what I posted.

Then respond to my response and we can "flush this out"......

Did Paul "begat" believers through his Gospel?

To be clear, I'm not saying that Paul saved anyone. I begat my son. I love him. However, I'm not the one that established my son's life. He isn't mine. He is the Lord's possession.

Yet, I have responsibilities for him that can either succeed in or fail. This will potentially impact him for the rest of his life. Faith is generational. I don't expect my son to be just like me. He should be like Jesus Christ.

Make an application here....

 

[Jim]

You've gotten James argument right here. However, James is wrong. Again. My answer to this "James" is YES.

Are you seriously saying what James wrote in that letter is incorrect?

 

[atpollard]

hope this helps !!!

I doubt it ... they seemed pretty determined to fight with each other.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Are you seriously saying what James wrote in that letter is incorrect?

If you read back through my comments you will see that I'm "hedging" somewhat in directly make such a claim.

I say "hedging" because I don't believe anyone meaningfully would knowingly lie about such things. I am simply saying that the argument doesn't work. The reasons it doesn't work is clear. So very clear.

"James" may well have not really known the fullness of the message of faith to the point of excluding such an argument in his claims.

I can't speak for the author. Again. My answer to James would be "YES". Faith without works is alive. Real, sincere, faith without works is alive.

There are a few arguments that James make that are overly simplistic. Rudimentary. Lacking in substance.

 

[praise_yeshua]

when we are yielding to the Holy Spirit, not quenching the Holy Spirit then we are walking in the Spirit and good works, good fruit are the by product of abiding in the vine then we are filled with the Holy Spirit as Paul commands believer to be when he also commands believers to walk in the Spirit. That is something we do. Commands are for believers to obey.

1- do not quench the Holy Spirit
2- Walk in the Spirit
3- Be filled with the Spirit
4- Results in the fruit of the Spirit
5- This happens when we deny self, the flesh, take up our cross daily and follow Him.

hope this helps !!!

I think a good question to ask here... is...

Can both good and bad works exist in the life of the believer? There is somewhat of an assumption here that believers can only produce good fruit.

Paul even told a MATURE Timothy....

2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

This fact alone excludes the idea that works could ever be meritorious.

 

[atpollard]

He was convinced that there was no such thing as gravity and instead it was simply the power of God causing what others asserted was the force of gravity. His argument was that God didn't need gravity to act in God's stead.

He has a small point ... physics can explain how gravity acts (predict its effects) but not what gravity IS (they have some partial theories that all have flaws predicting reality). So "God" is as good a "working explanation" for the unexplainable as any other.

 

[Titus]

No. That is your spin. It is a direct comparison to the inability of the faith of devils to save them and the inability of man faith to save them absent works. However, faith saves alone.

All you need to do is quote James saying we are saved by faith alone(dead faith) James 2:19-20,

- thou believest there is one God thou doest well(apparently James believes it's good to believe in God rather than unbelief.

- the devils also believe and tremble

- but wilt thou know O foolish man, that faith without works(faith alone) is dead

All you have to do is quote James saying what you teach. That faith alone, what James clearly defines as a dead faith is the kind of faith that justifies.

I'm not interested in your explanation of what James is supposedly saying.
Quote him saying what you claim he is saying. Then you will have won a convert to salvation be faith alone.

I have no problem using James own words to show both James and I speak the same doctrine, believe the same gospel, are of the same mind. 1Corinthians 1:10

I'll let James speak for himself on what justifies mankind.
Faith alone justification.
Or
faith that works Gods commandments to be justified.

James 2:24,
- you see then how by works a man is justified and NOT by faith alone


Its difficult to see what James plainly says if your presupposition is salvation by faith alone.

Can you quote James teaching your gospel with his own words?
I can let him speak for himself.

James 2:20, 24, 25,26
- but wilt thou know O foolish man that faith without works is dead
- you see then how by works a man is justified and not by faith alone
- likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and had sent them out another way

- for as the body without the spirit is dead so faith without works is dead also

 

[civic]

I think a good question to ask here... is...

Can both good and bad works exist in the life of the believer? There is somewhat of an assumption here that believers can only produce good fruit.

Paul even told a MATURE Timothy....

2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

This fact alone excludes the idea that works could ever be meritorious.

yes we can bear bad fruit when we are in the flesh pleasing self rather than God.

 

[Jim]

If you read back through my comments you will see that I'm "hedging" somewhat in directly make such a claim.

I say "hedging" because I don't believe anyone meaningfully would knowingly lie about such things. I am simply saying that the argument doesn't work. The reasons it doesn't work is clear. So very clear.

"James" may well have not really known the fullness of the message of faith to the point of excluding such an argument in his claims.

I can't speak for the author. Again. My answer to James would be "YES". Faith without works is alive. Real, sincere, faith without works is alive.

There are a few arguments that James makes that are overly simplistic. Rudimentary. Lacking in substance.

OK, I think I am done here.

 

[Jim]

He has a small point ... physics can explain how gravity acts (predict its effects) but not what gravity IS (they have some partial theories that all have flaws predicting reality). So "God" is as good a "working explanation" for the unexplainable as any other.

And of couse, the earth is flat.

 

[Titus]

Are you seriously saying what James wrote in that letter is incorrect?

He's already affirmed he gave up trying to reconcile James'teaching with the rest of the teaching of Paul and other new testament writers.

He lacks faith in the Scriptures by claiming James was not as well versed on the subject of faith and works therefore James 2 is James' limited understanding.

Shallow commentary. You're reading a translation. You're reading a translation that comes from choices between manuscripts. You're reading a translation that comes from various canonical councils that differed in the inclusion of James. The oldest extant list of the NT doesn't include James. It dates to around the first of the 2nd century. So these "collections" you're referencing vary

Funny how you talk of heaven and earth passing away and yet reference a translation that is going to pass away

Can you sincerely connect this belief with what you just said about "God's word not passing away". I mean you just witnessed that the manuscript you have translated in James is going to pass away

Praise yeshua has doubts about English translations.
He has alot of doubt about James.
He reminds me of Martin Luther. I cant help but see the comparison.
Rule 2c. Do not discuss other posters.

 

[civic]

He's already affirmed he gave up trying to reconcile James'teaching with the rest of the teaching of Paul and other new testament writers.

He lacks faith in the Scriptures by claiming James was not as well versed on the subject of faith and works therefore James 2 is James' limited understanding.




Praise yeshua has doubts about English translations.
He has alot of doubt about James.
He reminds me of Martin Luther. I cant help but see the comparison.

• Early Church Doubts: In the first centuries of the Church, some Church Fathers questioned the authenticity of the Epistle of James, according to the New World Encyclopedia. For example, it's missing from the Muratorian fragment (an early list of canonical scriptures) and other early lists. The church historian Eusebius categorized it as "disputed text".

 

[Titus]

• Early Church Doubts: In the first centuries of the Church, some Church Fathers questioned the authenticity of the Epistle of James, according to the New World Encyclopedia. For example, it's missing from the Muratorian fragment (an early list of canonical scriptures) and other early lists. The church historian Eusebius categorized it as "disputed text".

Already aware.
Already know they were not Inspired men.
I put my faith in Inspired men like James not "church fathers"

 

[civic]

Already aware.
Already know they were not Inspired men.
I put my faith in Inspired men like James not "church fathers"

I agree all I'm saying is that it was disputed early on.

 

[praise_yeshua]

yes we can bear bad fruit when we are in the flesh pleasing self rather than God.

I would argue that we can't avoid "being in the flesh". We are flesh. God hasn't changed our flesh yet.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh has desires that are opposed to the Spirit, and the Spirit has desires that are opposed to the flesh, for these are in opposition to each other, so that you cannot do what you want.

I notice the word "cannot" in verse 17. I'm not sure that many people actually notice this word nor apply such in their theology (Not saying you do. Just talking through the process of identifying the facts of our theology).


Even Paul talked of how his own wretchedness.

Rom 7:23 But I see a different law in my members waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that is in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

I'm not justifying acts contrary to goodness but it just reality that there is no glory in the flesh. It is impossible to do good and sin not for us. This is a humbling fact that should always be in our minds. We must see ourselves for what we are.

This will create empathy in us for all our fellowmen in our father Adam.

I see very little empathy for those who sin anymore. Very little. Everyone seems to want to pretend they can control what can only be tamed. Sooner or later, our flesh manifests itself in our lives. In every GREAT house there are vessels to dishonor.

 

[Titus]

James the brother of Jesus wrote the book of James.

Need help reassuring faith in James' work?
Would the apostle Paul be enough to strengthen your faith?

Paul's recommendation of James the brother of Jesus is all I need!!!
I will take Paul's word over "church fathers " everytime!!!

Galatians 1:19 ; 2:7-9
- but other than the apostles saw I none save James the Lords brother
- but contrariwise when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter
- for he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision the same was mightly in me toward the gentiles

Now listen carefully to Paul's positive praise of James the brother of Jesus' work in the new testament church.

V.9,
- and when James, Cephas, and John who seemed to be PILLARS, percieved the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of FELLOWSHIP that we should go unto the heathen and they(John, Cephas, James) unto the circumcision


Not only did Paul approve of James work in the ministry of the gospel.
Paul called him a pillar in the Lords church!!!!

Paul would never say such things if James taught a gospel that even slightly contradicted his own.

Gospel of Jesus Christ IS Jesus' new testament doctrine.
Therefore fellowship can only be extended to those who teach the doctrine of Christ.

Remember John worked with James in preaching the gospel.
Notice that John would NEVER have fellowshiped in hiis evangelism, his work in the church if James was a heretic!!!

John and James fellowshipped in the church and work of the gospel and Paul highly endorsed James as a pillar in the church.

Now proof that John, Cephas, and Paul all fellowshiped and worked with James in the preaching and teaching of the doctrine of Christ.
Galatians 6:2,
- bear ye one another's burdens and so fullfil the law of Christ(new testament doctrine)

2John 1:9-11,
- whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ hath not God, he that abideth in the doctrine of Christ he hath both the Father and Son
- if there come any unto you and bring not this doctrine receive him not into your house neither bid him God speed
- for he that bideth him God speed is a partaker in his evil deeds


Those are John's words, Inspired words!!!
John fellowshipped, worked with James in the preaching of the doctrine of Christ.
No way John, Cephas, Paul would have worked with James if James did not teach, preach the exact same doctrine as them.

Do you need any more endorsement?
Is there any greater endorsement other than the apostles themselves?

Who will you put your trust in?
The uninspired "church fathers"
Or
The handpicked Holy Spirit baptized inspired apostles of Jesus Christ?

I know who I'm putting my faith in.

 

[atpollard]

And of course, the earth is flat.

Gravity is a "curve in space-time".
What exactly is the mechanism by which "space-time" is curved?
Light propagates by "photons" that travel ... at the speed of light.
The effects of GRAVITY also propagate at the "speed of light" but "HOW?" Gravitons? There is no evidence of a GRAVITY particle. So HOW?

Physics doesn't know. They have theories that all have problems predicting fringe phenomenon. I was not making "flat earth" claims, just stating facts about what we know and do not know about "gravity".

Gravity is strange stuff. It is related to mass, but there is no REASON why it should be. The mechanism is still unknown. So we settle for mathematically describing the observed effects (irrespective of WHY).

 

[Administrator]

Rule 2c. Do not discuss other posters.

This is the 2nd warning