Need a reason to believe Calvinists are who they claim to be?
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Titus
Active Member
Every good work God gives us is a work of righteousness friend.
1John 3:23-24,
- and this is Gods commandment that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another as He gave us commandment
- and he that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him and he in Him and hereby we know that He abideth in us by the Spirit which He hath given us
Faith is a direct command. All commandments when obeyed are works of righteousness.
Acts 10:35,
- but in every nation he that feareth Him and worketh righteousness is accepted with Him
Worketh what Peter?
Acts 10:33,
- immediately therefore I sent thee and thou hast well done that thou art come, now therefore we are all here present before God to hear all things that are commanded thee of God
What did Cornelius have to hear from Peter and what commandments did Cornelius have to work to work righteousness?
Acts 10:42-43,
- and He commanded us to preach unto the people and to testify that it is He which was ordained of God to be the judge of the quick and the dead
- to Him give all the prophets witness that through His name whosoever believeth(1John 3:23-24)
in Jesus shall receive remission of sins
Peter came to Cornelius to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Peter was to command what?
The commandments in the new testament covenant, the gospel to Cornelius.
Peter then commanded belief in Jesus and water baptism.
Acts 10:47-48,
- and Peter commanded them to be baptized
Gods gospel preached by Peter to Cornelius spoke the truth when he said,
- but in every nation he that worketh righteousness is accepted by God
Cornelius was commanded to believe and be baptized by Peter.
When Cornelius obeyed the gospel commandments of God he worked righteousness.
All of Gods commandments are works of righteousness,
Psalm 119:171-172,
- my lips shall utter praise when thou hast taught me thy statures
- my tongue shall speak of thy word for ALL, ALL, ALL, THY COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS
Faith is a commandment of Jesus'new testament gospel, Mark 16:15-16 ; 1John 3:23-24 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 9:5-6.
When one works the works of God like faith.
He is working righteousness, John 6:28-29.
-
1John 3:23-24,
- and this is Gods commandment that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another as He gave us commandment
- and he that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him and he in Him and hereby we know that He abideth in us by the Spirit which He hath given us
Faith is a direct command. All commandments when obeyed are works of righteousness.
Acts 10:35,
- but in every nation he that feareth Him and worketh righteousness is accepted with Him
Worketh what Peter?
Acts 10:33,
- immediately therefore I sent thee and thou hast well done that thou art come, now therefore we are all here present before God to hear all things that are commanded thee of God
What did Cornelius have to hear from Peter and what commandments did Cornelius have to work to work righteousness?
Acts 10:42-43,
- and He commanded us to preach unto the people and to testify that it is He which was ordained of God to be the judge of the quick and the dead
- to Him give all the prophets witness that through His name whosoever believeth(1John 3:23-24)
in Jesus shall receive remission of sins
Peter came to Cornelius to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Peter was to command what?
The commandments in the new testament covenant, the gospel to Cornelius.
Peter then commanded belief in Jesus and water baptism.
Acts 10:47-48,
- and Peter commanded them to be baptized
Gods gospel preached by Peter to Cornelius spoke the truth when he said,
- but in every nation he that worketh righteousness is accepted by God
Cornelius was commanded to believe and be baptized by Peter.
When Cornelius obeyed the gospel commandments of God he worked righteousness.
All of Gods commandments are works of righteousness,
Psalm 119:171-172,
- my lips shall utter praise when thou hast taught me thy statures
- my tongue shall speak of thy word for ALL, ALL, ALL, THY COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS
Faith is a commandment of Jesus'new testament gospel, Mark 16:15-16 ; 1John 3:23-24 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 9:5-6.
When one works the works of God like faith.
He is working righteousness, John 6:28-29.
-
praise_yeshua
Active Member
No. I don't believe salvation is a merit system other than the meritorious work of Jesus Christ to secure Eternal Life for those who believe upon Him.
I don't believe what James wrote can fully be reconciled against what other Scriptures declare faith to be. I stopped trying to "read such into" James's narrative a very long time ago.
I don't require a "Abraham offering his only son" moment in any person's life as proof or a requirement of faith.
To whom much is given, much is required. Requirements vary. Abraham literally lived the Gospel in his own immediate family. Which is somewhat of a unique circumstance in the history of faith.
The women I referenced from Matthew 15 and the centurion of Luke 7 did nothing more than confess the obvious realizing they couldn't help themselves.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Luk 7:8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
Luk 7:9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
There are also many works undertaken by men that never actually come forth from faith. They are either never done in faith or they are falsely undertaken for the wrong reasons.
Whatever we do must be in faith "as unto the Lord".
Col 3:23 Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men,
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Thusly, I don't fit within either of these systems. I feel no need nor see any requirement to do such.
I've "sat back" in my life and watched as so many people try to make the arguments being made here.... and that never actually go anywhere. It is just a vicious circle of debate and one huge false dichotomy. I reject both perspectives.
Abraham wasn't trying to prove himself to anyone in what he did for God. He wasn't trying to express his faith so others might follow him. He simply...literally... lived the Gospel because he believed what God told him.
Everything starts with such simple faith. It has no merit. It gains nothing of itself. It relies solely upon another. God.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
My answer to James is Yes. Faith alone saves. The only work needed is the work of Jesus Christ to secure Eternal Life for those who simply believe Him.
There is no other answers to be found. It is either Yes or No. You can't pretend both answers are true.
What work did the women in Matthew 15 and the man in Luke 7 do to merit the praise of Christ "great faith"?
praise_yeshua
Active Member
He also compares faith to what devils CAN NOT HAVE.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
It really is an empty argument. Just focus on the argument itself. Not any sense of what you believe about "inspiration".
So tell me, did Jesus die for demons? Did the meritorious work of Jesus Christ ATONE for devils?
If that answer is NO. Then you can't make this argument at all. Jesus didn't die for devils. They have nothing to believe IN.....
Titus
Active Member
Is James' writing Inspired?
Titus
Active Member
James taught faith without works is dead, James 2:20. You misunderstood James' teaching by the conclusion you've reached.
You're asking the wrong man.
You'll need to find someone who believes there are examples of folks that merited acceptance to God, Acts 10:35.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
If you believe that inspiration includes the limitations of an author, then I'll say yes.
The argument can be made that James simply wasn't well versed in the intricate nature of the complex argument he is trying to make. In other words, he doesn't really realize exactly what his words equal.
Most people haven't even had a meaningful argument concerning what "inspiration" means in their entire life. They simply repeat such claims when they're losing an argument.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
No I haven't. You're not actually dealing with what I already said. I knew you wouldn't. I believe you can't. Prove me wrong.
I can read just fine. The words have meaning I can discern. You don't know anything other than exactly what the words relate.
No I'm not. I ask you to detail what work they performed that elicited the praise of Christ .... "great faith". Don't turn this into anything other what I asked.
They didn't do anything but believe God. Thusly, they had "great faith". No works required.
Which is in contrast to what you're presenting that James required.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I don't believe God does everything he could to convince us. The idea is comforting but it doesn't meet reality. I wish I could say such but I can't.
I believe that people face damnation that they don't really understand. I believe we exert influence ourselves upon those around us that can either foster faith or hinder faith. Life is a complex mix of our wills and God's will. At times, we are the reasons that mankind face damnation and that men/women will end up in hell because of us.
There are concepts of this found in the "Federal Headship" of Adam generally taught within several theological circles but this teaching really isn't what they make it to be.
We are our brother's keeper. Men suffer and thrive often based upon US.
Titus
Active Member
James teaching on Biblical saving faith is perfect image of Paul's teaching on Biblical saving faith.
Both men spoke from the same Holy Spirit. And both Men taught the same gospel, Ephesians 4:4-5.
If one has difficulty accepting James' teaching. Then that person lacks faith in Gods word.
This is a faith issue.
God would not allow anything but the uncorrupted truth to be in His holy Inspired revelation.
Not any error would ever be allowed by God to pervert His revelation to man.
1Peter 1:23-25,
- but the word of the Lord endures forever and this is the word which was preached to you
Matthew 24:35,
- heaven and earth will pass away but My words will not pass away
James Inspired by the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit that spoke through the apostles the words of Christ,
John 16:13,
- however when He the Spirit of truth comes He will guide you into ALL truth,
for He will not speak on His own, but whatever He hears He will speak and He will tell you words to come
Whatever men like James spoke, they spoke the Fathers will.
Is was not James' personal opinions.
It was God speaking through James by His Holy Spirit.
1Peter 4:11,
- if any man speak let him speak as the oracles of God
Both men spoke from the same Holy Spirit. And both Men taught the same gospel, Ephesians 4:4-5.
If one has difficulty accepting James' teaching. Then that person lacks faith in Gods word.
This is a faith issue.
God would not allow anything but the uncorrupted truth to be in His holy Inspired revelation.
Not any error would ever be allowed by God to pervert His revelation to man.
1Peter 1:23-25,
- but the word of the Lord endures forever and this is the word which was preached to you
Matthew 24:35,
- heaven and earth will pass away but My words will not pass away
James Inspired by the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit that spoke through the apostles the words of Christ,
John 16:13,
- however when He the Spirit of truth comes He will guide you into ALL truth,
for He will not speak on His own, but whatever He hears He will speak and He will tell you words to come
Whatever men like James spoke, they spoke the Fathers will.
Is was not James' personal opinions.
It was God speaking through James by His Holy Spirit.
1Peter 4:11,
- if any man speak let him speak as the oracles of God
Titus
Active Member
Someone could make that argument but they will answer to God for putting doubt in the minds of men of Gods oracles.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Feel free to reference me. No need to generalize.
Shallow commentary. You're reading a translation. You're reading a translation that comes from choices between manuscripts. You're reading a translation that comes from various canonical councils that differed in the inclusion of James. The oldest extant list of the NT doesn't include James. It dates to around the first of the 2nd century. So these "collections" you're referencing vary.
It sure does. However, that word isn't in English. Nor is it found in manuscript form. Many manuscripts have perished over the life of man.
Funny how you talk of heaven and earth passing away and yet reference a translation that is going to pass away....
Can you sincerely connect this belief with what you just said about "God's word not passing away". I mean you just witnessed that the manuscript you have translated in James is going to pass away.
Now which is it? Is it going to pass away or not?
To be clear. It's not going to pass away at all because it is alive. It lives outside of the context of being written anywhere.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Yeah. Like I haven't heard that before.
You should realize that there are many influences in humanity. The apostles were great men. Better men than myself. However, they had issues. Every single one of them.
Not saying I see wholesale issues. Don't misunderstand me. Just realize that you're facing challenges in what you read. Don't blindly accept what you think you understand from their words. Make them your own. Endlessly learn. Dig.
I face much more requirements myself than you do. I have to live with what I've learned.
I'm here if you really want to debate this and go somewhere........
Maybe you can tell me why "James" compared faith to devils when devils can't believe in what Christ did for humanity. Christ died for mankind. He didn't take upon himself the form of angels to save them from their sin.....
It really is a rather senseless comparison. I once was where you are in this. I had to make a choice to "tow the line" in what others around me were insisting I believe.
I decided to change. Your choice.
Titus
Active Member
All men are sinners but not all men are handpicked by God entrusted to only preach/teach the most important message that mankind will ever hear.
Colossians 3:17,
- and whatever you do in word or deed do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus(under the authority of Gods will)
Titus
Active Member
Simple Sir.
I think you have over analyzed possibly? I really dont know why thus is difficult.
Demons believe in God. Obviously they know about God.
They also have faith that Jesus is God.
They knew Jesus before man knew Him.
That's all James point is.
He's telling his audience it's good to believe in God.
Just like his audience already does.
But belief alone cannot do anything for them.
Just as the demons faith cannot do anything for them because they are already damned.
James 2:19, 20
- you believe there is one God you do well(its good you believe in God)
the devils also believe and tremble(they believe which is good but their faith is not obedient faith it is dead)
- but do you want to know O foolish man that faith without works is dead
Thats the kind of faith the demons have!!!!!
All they got is belief but no obedience to God.
Therefore if all you have is what the demons have your faith also is dead, worthless it profits you not.
James 2:24,
- you see that a man is justified by works(obedience) and not by faith alone(same faith as the demons no obedience only belief in God
Belief is better than unbelief but if that's all your faith is then you cannot be justified.
I've got Bible study and worship to go to. Take care friend.
Titus
Active Member
I'm in a discussion with a Bible denier. You have no real faith in the Bible.
Gods message according to you is up for private interpretation.
You believe all the translations are just private interpretations.
If that is the case, then I am a fool for believing the Bible is Gods truth.
I will loose all my faith in the Scriptures if they have lost their true God breathed message.
I cannot know truth if what I'm reading is just a mans commentary.
Jesus quoted from the septuagint. That's proof that God Himself believed language translation into another language is God breathed.
If translations are good enough for our Lord then they are good enough for me.
I dont know why you have any faith at all in English Bibles.
The way you reason, we can only know truth by reading Hebrew, Greek and aramaic manuscripts.
2 Peter 1:20,
- knowing this first that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation
Since God did not teach anywhere in His holy book that to understand His word one must know the orginal language, that tells me God planned to use different languages so all could know The truth,
John 17:17.
Titus
Active Member
I've heard enough braggadocio.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
first of, People need to listen to others before they go off and try to assume they know what they means
second. Jesus said it is the work of God that WE BELIEVE. He did not say it is the work of God that he believes for us.
third. Please stop with your anti calvinist rant. and start to listen to people. we get sick of being accused of things we do not believe because people are focused on defeating something, and not listening to what people are saying
Which is exactly what I have said since day 1. And if you were not on some silly rant to defeat Calvinism, and refuse to understand I am not a Calvinist. you would know that.,
now if you want to continue to do this like you have since I have first met you. I will continue to prove you have no understanding of anything i believe or say
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