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[Titus]

So you are teaching me the elected must have good works to be elected.
Therefore it logically follows that no one will be in heaven without fruit of the Spirit, godly works

Emphasis are mine for discussion. I never said that. You are not following me very well. I clearly said

Agreed. I apologize. My wording was not the thoughts and intent of what I wrote.
I should have said...

if a man said he knows God. and does not have Godly fruit in his life to support that confession, then his confession means nothing.

What I meant to say : So, you are teaching me the elected must have good works to enter heaven.

My mistake of saying the elect must do good works to be  elected.

You taught if a man claims to know God but has no godly fruit, then his confession means nothing.

So, I learn from your teaching that, all that will enter heaven must produce fruit(good works) otherwise their confession of knowing God means nothing.

You believe to be elect, the evidence of their election is their fruit.
No fruit in their lives, no evidence of election.
No evidence of election.
No entrance into heaven.

 

[Titus]

Faith is the evidence of the new birth, not the condition thereof

Titus, first of all, you are asking a question to someone who does not believe or teach that our faith has any part one being born of God, faith is the evidence of the new birth, not the condition thereof. Faith is a work of the law, thereby becomes one of the greatest works of the law

Yes.
Your plan of salvation has God saving man i.e. regenerated before faith.
So, you dont really believe in salvation by faith alone.
You really believe in Grace alone salvation apart from any condition even faith.

So in your religion man is saved before he believes in Jesus.

This contradicts sound Bible doctrine.

Acts 16:31,
- they said, believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household

Mark 16:15-16,
He who believes and is baptized will be saved....

John 3:15,
- so that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life

Matthew 9:2,
- ...and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy son be of good cheer thy sins are forgiven thee

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Then you believe on Jesus. Correct it is a work of faith that you do.

No. it was a work of God in me, that led me to trust him

Faith is not my work.

Jesus taught faith is a work of God that we work. That's Jesus' doctrine,
Galatians 6:2,
- bear ye one another's burdens and so fullfil the law of Christ
We are to judge based on Jesus' gospel,
John 7:24,
- do not judge according to appearance, but judge righteous judgement


Not my intention. I'd rather be best friends that worked together in Gods kingdom,
Ephesians 4:13,
- till we all come to the unity of the faith(gospel) and of knowledge of the Son of God to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ

So you are basing your eternity on your works.

Good luck with this

I need more information to really understand what you mean by this?
Jesus died for us because He knows we are imperfect.

No,. He died because we needed his salvation because we were lost. without hope

Jesus himself said he came to the lost.

Obeying God is never defined in the Scriptures as perfectly sinless man.

Actually in the means of salvation it did

Moses said to fulfill the law we must not break one command. Paul re-iterated that in Gal 3. And james said if we even stumble in one area. we are guilty of all

why would you water down the law and place yourself above it?

Yet Jesus does teach it is possible for man to obey all His commandments,
Matthew 28:20,
- teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you and lo I am with you always even to the end of the age

And John said if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and there is no truth in us

once again, if you committed 1 sin your whole life. Your doomed.. You have a death sentence.. That must be paid.

Your no more righteous than a person who committed 100 sins. Yes, he has 100 death sentences against him,

But on judgment day, apart from grace. neither of you will be spared.. You both will be cast to outer darkness

I don't believe like for example Charismaticlady's theology of being perfectly sinless.
She claims she never sins.
I dont believe that's possible but I do believe a mature Christian like Paul rarely would sin.

Those rare sins would make them guilty before God.

You are one of the members on here that I have difficulty with understanding your responses.
It's not intentional.
I would much rather be civil than just ad hominem one another.
But, also you already know, no one forced you to start a conversation with me on my article.
If I upset you. Then avoid my posts.
I've been talking with you for years.
You haven't budged in inch.
I've not been persuaded by anything you have shared with me.
Probably just a waste of time. But I will pray for you.
Ephesians 5:16,
- redeeming the time because the days are evil

I will pray for you also.

Context flesh, is Jews Old law, Old covenant of Moses.
So I agree with Paul.
You must know there are different kinds of works in the new testament.
Lumping them all together is poor hermeneutics.

There is two ways to heaven in scripture

1. the law - if you want to get yourself to heaven, this is how you must do it. sadly. all have sinned and fall short. so this way to heaven is voided for all mankind

2. Grace through faith - God. who is rich in his mercy and grace. came and fulfilled number 1 by never breaking even one command, then because the lamb of God who took your sin on his body in your place. so you could be freed from the penalty of sin.

there is no third way.

Any way, I love everyone on here.
I only do this because I love others.

If you love, you would think you would want to know the truth. and be open to correction.

 

[Jim]

Its the work of God we believe

they asked what work they could do. He told them NON. it is Gods work.

we can not come to faith apart from Gods work.. He gets the credit. not you or I

That is a really bad understanding of that passage of scripture. You are claiming God is the one doing the believing for us. That is just plain silly. God is doing everything needed to convince us that we can believe Him and place our trust and confidence in Him, i.e., have faith. He presents the data and the evidence; we do the believing.

 

[Titus]

This is why I do not like discussion on any Bible subject with Eternally Grateful,

He first told me at the beginning of My post that I was misrepresenting him and called me a liar,

Faith is a work of obedience, John 6:28-29.

Does man believe in Jesus or does God do the believing for us? John 6:28-29

EG answer:

Its the work of God we believe

they asked what work they could do. He told them NON. it is Gods work.

we can not come to faith apart from Gods work.. He gets the credit. not you or I

Now I interpreted his verse and said this:

Thanks, so God does the believing for us according to your interpretation.

Now EG accuses me of misrepresenting him:

No I never said this

why are yuo so dishonest when discussing things with people?

Sorry.
I dont know if you are inferring God does all the believing in Christ for us or we do the believing.
To try and better understand your position is why I asked if God does the work of repentance for us?

EG Now explains again who does the believing in Christ, God or man.

again, your reading from a doctrinal view. and not what is said.

I did not say it is not my faith But you only see what you want to see.

So now I thought he believes my position i.e. man does the work of believing so I said:

Then you believe on Jesus. Correct it is a work of faith that you do.

His response is now that God does the work of believing in us. Man does not do the work of faith. Which is how I explained his position the very first time he gave it. And he accused me of misrepresenting him and called me a liar.

No. it was a work of God in me, that led me to trust him

Faith is not my work

Recap:

Its the work of God we believe

they asked what work they could do. He told them NON. it is Gods work.

we can not come to faith apart from Gods work.. He gets the credit. not you or I

Thanks, so God does the believing for us according to your interpretation.

EG, accuses me of lying and misrepresenting his belief.

No I never said this

why are yuo so dishonest when discussing things with people?

again, your reading from a doctrinal view. and not what is said.

I did not say it is not my faith. But you only see what you want to see.

I never said Jesus does the work of believing.

. it was a work of God in me, that led me to trust him

Faith is not my work.

Eternally Grateful falsely accused me of misrepresenting his position on who does the work of believing in Jesus God or man?
My position has always been man does the work of faith. God does not do the believing for us.

Eternally Grateful is now taking both sides, which shows his ignorance on this subject and is why I do not like to engage with him in discussion.
He accuses me of something he is confused about. He cannot give logical answers, instead he contradicts himself which exposes his inability to even know if I'm right or wrong. Yet he always is quick to accuse me of false teaching.

 

[Titus]

Faith is not my work.

I never said Jesus does the work of believing

Then who does the work?
Eternally Grateful says neither does the work of faith!!!!
He is very confused.
I give up trying to explain John 6:28-29 to him.

 

[Titus]

You are claiming God is the one doing the believing for us.

Except when Eternally Grateful, says the exact opposite!!!!

I never said Jesus does the work of believing.

Jim, Its pointless to reason with an unstable man.

James 1:8,
- a double minded man is unstable in all his ways

 

[Titus]

I did not say it is not my faith. But you only see what you want to see.

Faith is not my work.

Your dodging.

I never said Jesus does the work of believing.

I give up trying to explain John 6:28-29 to Eternally Grateful.

 

[Titus]

Its the work of God we believe

I never said Jesus does the work of believing

did not say it is not my faith.

Faith is not my work.

 

[Titus]

I also think you just answered my question by faith alone issue. so you DO preach a merit based salvation. thank you

This is a misrepresentation of what I believe.
I've never believed in meritorious salvation or works salvation.
Never will.
Ephesians 2:8-9 ; 10

So when a Christian produces good fruit you call that meritorious works.
The Bible never defines fruit of the Spirit that way.
Neither will I.

Exodus 20:16,
- you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor

You never answered my question. Is producing fruit required to be part of the election (which would make producing fruit by YOUR definition. a meritorious work (your trying to merit salvation)

don't falsely accuse me until you answer my question

Eternally Grateful makes it clear I never falsely accused him of his accusation. Even though he accused me of this.
He has accused me multiple times in the past of being a meritorious works based salvationist.

He admits here that is what he posts about me.

 

[civic]

Yes.
Your plan of salvation has God saving man i.e. regenerated before faith.
So, you dont really believe in salvation by faith alone.
You really believe in Grace alone salvation apart from any condition even faith.

So in your religion man is saved before he believes in Jesus.

This contradicts sound Bible doctrine.

Acts 16:31,
- they said, believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household

Mark 16:15-16,
He who believes and is baptized will be saved....

John 3:15,
- so that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life

Matthew 9:2,
- ...and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy son be of good cheer thy sins are forgiven thee

correct it really is salvation by election alone.

 

[Titus]

don;t falsly accuse me, until you answer my question

I never did falsely accuse him. He now admits this is what he accuses me of.

I also think you just answered my question by faith alone issue. so you DO preach a merit based salvation. thank you

 

[Titus]

So there is a difference between works one does to earn salvation versus obedience to God's will. This is a distinction many refuse to make and seem to want to make obedience to God's will a work of merit.

So you are basing your eternity on your works.

Good luck with this

 

[Titus]

The Bible never defines obedience to Gods will as meritorious works.
When one defines obedient works to God as meritorious works. They are twisting the word.

James 2:21-24 ; 26,
- was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar
- seest thou how faith wrought with his works and by works was faith made perfect
- and the scriptures(Genesis 15:6) was fullfilled that said Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness and he was called the friend of God
- ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only
- for as the body without the spirit is dead so faith without works is dead also

James is teaching obedient works. You cannot define these works as meritorious without twisting the scriptures.

Since faith is a work that is essential to salvation.
You cannot be saved without obedient works like faith, 1John 3:23-24.
Therefore any gospel that teaches salvation is void of obedient faith(works) is a false gospel, Gal. 1:8
And any man that makes obedience to Gods commandments a work of merit is twisting the Scared Scriptures, 2 Peter 3 :16.

 

[praise_yeshua]

No. it was a work of God in me, that led me to trust him

Faith is not my work.

This is contrary to a clear understanding of Scripture.

Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith:

Notice God The Son. Jesus Christ speaking of one of His children.

 

[civic]

This is contrary to a clear understanding of Scripture.

Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith:

Notice God The Son. Jesus Christ speaking of one of His children.

Yes and over a dozen more references from Jesus about their own faith, not the faith He gave to them.

And as we both know Jesus is the final authority when it comes to faith and salvation. We begin with His teachings on the topic and interpret the teaching of the Apostles and Prophets through that lens much in the same way as the NT reveals the Old Testament when Jesus quotes from it and teaches on a given topic.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The Bible never defines obedience to Gods will as meritorious works.
When one defines obedient works to God as meritorious works. They are twisting the word.

James 2:21-24 ; 26,
- was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar
- seest thou how faith wrought with his works and by works was faith made perfect
- and the scriptures(Genesis 15:6) was fullfilled that said Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness and he was called the friend of God
- ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only
- for as the body without the spirit is dead so faith without works is dead also

James is teaching obedient works. You cannot define these works as meritorious without twisting the scriptures.

James defined his own use of the words you quote. You're leaving out important words that James said.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

It is impossible to actually believe these words that James wrote without believing the works he subsequently spoke of being meritorious.

Since faith is a work that is essential to salvation.
You cannot be saved without obedient works like faith, 1John 3:23-24.
Therefore any gospel that teaches salvation is void of obedient faith(works) is a false gospel, Gal. 1:8
And any man that makes obedience to Gods commandments a work of merit is twisting the Scared Scriptures, 2 Peter 3 :16.

Faith is never a work of righteousness. Faith is simply believing God. It takes no effort to express faith other than to open our mouths to speak what our hearts believe.

This battle all of you are having is impossible to win given the constraints of understanding that both Calvinists and Arminians place upon the requirements of the discussion. I see no need for most these "requirements" you're fabricating to understand/perceive what God has revealed.

 

[Titus]

It is impossible to actually believe these words that James wrote without believing the works he subsequently spoke of being meritorious

Are you claiming salvation is a merit system taught by James?
Are you a two gospels dispensationalist?

 

[Titus]

Key verse to understand James' teaching on chapter 2.
James 2:14,
- what doth it profit my brethren though a man say he hath faith and have not works can faith alone save him

The whole teaching of James is, can faith only save or obedient faith that works the commandments of God save.
James then teaches what is Biblical saving faith.

 

[Jim]

Key verse to understand James' teaching on chapter 2.
James 2:14,
- what doth it profit my brethren though a man say he hath faith and have not works can faith alone save him

The whole teaching of James is, can faith only save or obedient faith that works the commandments of God save.
James then teaches what is Biblical saving faith.

what James is saying is that you can think or say that you have faith, but if there are no works then there really is no faith. Works become a sort of yes or no judgment on the actuality of faith.