Need a reason to believe Calvinists are who they claim to be?

[Titus]

So tell me, do you think you can actually change your mind to match God's mind?

1 Corinthians 2:16,
- for who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct Him, but we have the mind of Christ

 

[praise_yeshua]

1 Corinthians 2:16,
- for who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct Him, but we have the mind of Christ

So you have the mind of Christ? How did you get that mind?

"We" wasn't about you. Paul included those he knew at Corinth. So why are you including yourself in this "we"?

And just how did you get this?

 

[TibiasDad]

You can repent. You can confess. You can get baptized all without out faith.

But repentance and confession and baptism are done as an expression of faith. Why would these things, as a general rule, happen without faith being present to one degree or another?

Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

But repentance and confession and baptism are done as an expression of faith. Why would these things, as a general rule, happen without faith being present to one degree or another?

Doug

People believe someone other than God. We've had this discussion before.

There is this assumption in both Calvinism and Arminianism that you can simply claim something and it just happens.

This is nothing more than compliance. There are going to be many people in this world that one day are going to claim they complied with what they were told to do and God is going to say "I never knew you".

They did it for those who instructed them to do it. Not for God.

Big difference.

Col 3:17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

 

[Titus]

So you have the mind of Christ? How did you get that mind?

"We" wasn't about you. Paul included those he knew at Corinth. So why are you including yourself in this "we"?

And just how did you get this?

1 Corinthians 11:1,
- imitate me just as I also imitate Christ

 

[Titus]

But repentance and confession and baptism are done as an expression of faith. Why would these things, as a general rule, happen without faith being present to one degree or another?

Doug

Amen,
You are correct. These are works of faith.
But , there was a guy who got baptized to marry a christan. He had no faith. But this has nothing to do with the motive the apostles are teaching behind these new testament commandments.

 

[praise_yeshua]

1 Corinthians 11:1,
- imitate me just as I also imitate Christ

So you knew Paul after the flesh? You only have a few words that Paul wrote to others. Not you.

Lets keep going on this. We are getting somewhere.

I'll go ahead and make the claim. You're not imitating Paul. Nor are you imitating Christ.

So again. Why do you believe you have the mind of Christ?

 

[TibiasDad]

People believe someone other than God. We've had this discussion before.

There is this assumption in both Calvinism and Arminianism that you can simply claim something and it just happens.

This is nothing more than compliance. There are going to be many people in this world that one day are going to claim they complied with what they were told to do and God is going to say "I never knew you".

They did it for those who instructed them to do it. Not for God.

Big difference.

Col 3:17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

I would think one able to discern this must be divine in nature. Otherwise it is mere judgment to assume what is in the heart of someone else.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Amen,
You are correct. These are works of faith.
But , there was a guy who got baptized to marry a christan. He had no faith. But this has nothing to do with the motive the apostles are teaching behind these new testament commandments.

I agree, and sadly, that is something that happens all too often.


Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

Amen,
You are correct. These are works of faith.
But , there was a guy who got baptized to marry a christan. He had no faith. But this has nothing to do with the motive the apostles are teaching behind these new testament commandments.

Are you lead by the Spirit of God? This is more than just words you reference that were written to others. Do you really think you can just comply and be them?

Tell me how you actually know Christ. John warned that many in the last days would say "here is Christ", there is "Christ" but John said to not go after them.

The Christ that these people followed walked among them.

The "christ" preached by most people today is nothing more than an imaginary idol that looks similar to Christ but isn't really Him.

 

[atpollard]

Nothing saves alone.

“What we have here, is a failure to communicate” - from ‘Cool Hand Luke’

Sola Fide (quoted from GotQuestions)

Sola fide, which means "faith alone," is important because it is one of the distinguishing characteristics or key points that separate the true biblical Gospel from false gospels. At stake is the very Gospel itself and it is therefore a matter of eternal life or death. Getting the Gospel right is of such importance that the Apostle Paul would write in Galatians 1:9, “As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!” Paul was addressing the same question that sola fide addresses—on what basis is humanity declared by God to be justified? Is it by faith alone or by faith combined with works? Paul makes it clear in Galatians and Romans that humanity is “justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law” (Galatians 2:16), and the rest of the Bible concurs.​

​

Sola fide is one of the five solas that came to define and summarize the key issues of the Protestant Reformation. Each of these Latin phrases represents a key area of doctrine that was an issue of contention between the Reformers and the Roman Catholic Church, and today they still serve to summarize key doctrines essential to the Gospel and to Christian life and practice. The Latin word sola means “alone” or “only” and the essential Christian doctrines represented by these five Latin phrases accurately summarize the biblical teaching on these crucial subjects: sola scriptura—Scripture alone, sola fide—faith alone, sola gratia—grace alone, sola Christus—Christ alone, and sola Deo gloria—for the glory of God alone. Each one is vitally important, and they are all closely tied together. Deviation from one will lead to error in another essential doctrine, and the result will almost always be a false gospel which is powerless to save.​

​

Sola fide or faith alone is a key point of difference between not only Protestants and Catholics but between biblical Christianity and almost all other religions and teachings. The teaching that we are declared righteous by God (justified) on the basis of our faith alone and not by works is a key doctrine of the Bible and a line that divides most cults from biblical Christianity. While most religions and cults teach people what works they must do to be saved, the Bible teaches that we are not saved by works, but by God’s grace through His gift of faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). Biblical Christianity is distinct from every other religion in that it is centered on what God has accomplished through Christ’s finished work, while all other religions are based on human achievement. If we abandon the doctrine of justification by faith, we abandon the only way of salvation. “Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:4-5). The Bible teaches that those that trust Jesus Christ for justification by faith alone are imputed with His righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21), while those who try to establish their own righteousness or mix faith with works will receive the punishment due to all who fall short of God’s perfect standard.​

​

Sola fide—the doctrine of justification by faith alone apart from works—is simply recognizing what is taught over and over in Scripture—that at some point in time God declares ungodly sinners righteous by imputing Christ’s righteousness to them (Romans 4:5, 5:8, 19). This happens apart from any works and before the individual actually begins to become righteous. This is an important distinction between Catholic theology that teaches righteous works are meritorious towards salvation and Protestant theology that affirms the biblical teaching that righteous works are the result and evidence of a born-again person who has been justified by God and regenerated by the power of the Holy Spirit.​

​

How important is sola fide? It is so important to the Gospel message and a biblical understanding of salvation that Martin Luther described it as being “the article with and by which the church stands.” Those who reject sola fide reject the only Gospel that can save them and by necessity embrace a false gospel. That is why Paul so adamantly denounces those who taught law-keeping or other works of righteousness in Galatians 1:9 and other passages. Yet today this important biblical doctrine is once again under attack. Too often sola fide is relegated to secondary importance instead of being recognized as an essential doctrine of Christianity, which it certainly is.​

​

“Consider Abraham: ‘He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.’ Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: ‘All nations will be blessed through you.’ So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’ Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, ‘The righteous will live by faith’” (Galatians 3:6-11).​

Why is Sola Fide important? (from GotQuestions)

If you choose to reject the Protestant Reformation and embrace the Catholicism that preceded it, that is your choice and you have my blessings (you answer to God and not to me), however, if you are going to public ally denounce “Sola Fide”, you should probably at least know what you are talking about before refuting it.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I would think one able to discern this must be divine in nature. Otherwise it is mere judgment to assume what is in the heart of someone else.

Doug

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

The teaching of false doctrine defines those that preach a "christ" that isn't Christ.

Just meer compliance to what others teach that isn't Christ doesn't get anyone.... anywhere.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I agree, and sadly, that is something that happens all too often.


Doug

So it is about motives?

That is a great place to start defining what is real and what isn't.

What motives do you accept and reject?

 

[atpollard]

Heres a quote from Calvin:
" I pray for them: I pray not for the world. Hence we infer that the grace of God is offered to  few and that not all men are equally favored with it. Christ says that He intercedes not for the world because He is solicitous for His own flock only, which He has undertaken to keep."

Here are some other quotes from John Calvin:

“We offer up our prayers unto Thee, O most gracious God and most merciful Father, for all men in general, that as Thou art pleased to be acknowledged the Savior of the whole human race by the redemption accomplished by Jesus Christ Thy Son…”​

​

“Our Lord made effective for the thief his death and passion which he suffered and endured for all mankind.”​

​

“Indeed, our Lord Jesus was offered to all the world… Our Lord Jesus suffered for all and there is neither great nor small who is not inexcusable today, for we can obtain salvation in him.”​

 

[Titus]

Here are some other quotes from John Calvin:

“We offer up our prayers unto Thee, O most gracious God and most merciful Father, for all men in general, that as Thou art pleased to be acknowledged the Savior of the whole human race by the redemption accomplished by Jesus Christ Thy Son…”​

​

“Our Lord made effective for the thief his death and passion which he suffered and endured for all mankind.”​

​

“Indeed, our Lord Jesus was offered to all the world… Our Lord Jesus suffered for all and there is neither great nor small who is not inexcusable today, for we can obtain salvation in him.”​

He was a confused man with a confused plan.

 

[Titus]

“What we have here, is a failure to communicate” - from ‘Cool Hand Luke’

Sola Fide (quoted from GotQuestions)

Sola fide, which means "faith alone," is important because it is one of the distinguishing characteristics or key points that separate the true biblical Gospel from false gospels. At stake is the very Gospel itself and it is therefore a matter of eternal life or death. Getting the Gospel right is of such importance that the Apostle Paul would write in Galatians 1:9, “As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!” Paul was addressing the same question that sola fide addresses—on what basis is humanity declared by God to be justified? Is it by faith alone or by faith combined with works? Paul makes it clear in Galatians and Romans that humanity is “justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law” (Galatians 2:16), and the rest of the Bible concurs.​

​

Sola fide is one of the five solas that came to define and summarize the key issues of the Protestant Reformation. Each of these Latin phrases represents a key area of doctrine that was an issue of contention between the Reformers and the Roman Catholic Church, and today they still serve to summarize key doctrines essential to the Gospel and to Christian life and practice. The Latin word sola means “alone” or “only” and the essential Christian doctrines represented by these five Latin phrases accurately summarize the biblical teaching on these crucial subjects: sola scriptura—Scripture alone, sola fide—faith alone, sola gratia—grace alone, sola Christus—Christ alone, and sola Deo gloria—for the glory of God alone. Each one is vitally important, and they are all closely tied together. Deviation from one will lead to error in another essential doctrine, and the result will almost always be a false gospel which is powerless to save.​

​

Sola fide or faith alone is a key point of difference between not only Protestants and Catholics but between biblical Christianity and almost all other religions and teachings. The teaching that we are declared righteous by God (justified) on the basis of our faith alone and not by works is a key doctrine of the Bible and a line that divides most cults from biblical Christianity. While most religions and cults teach people what works they must do to be saved, the Bible teaches that we are not saved by works, but by God’s grace through His gift of faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). Biblical Christianity is distinct from every other religion in that it is centered on what God has accomplished through Christ’s finished work, while all other religions are based on human achievement. If we abandon the doctrine of justification by faith, we abandon the only way of salvation. “Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:4-5). The Bible teaches that those that trust Jesus Christ for justification by faith alone are imputed with His righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21), while those who try to establish their own righteousness or mix faith with works will receive the punishment due to all who fall short of God’s perfect standard.​

​

Sola fide—the doctrine of justification by faith alone apart from works—is simply recognizing what is taught over and over in Scripture—that at some point in time God declares ungodly sinners righteous by imputing Christ’s righteousness to them (Romans 4:5, 5:8, 19). This happens apart from any works and before the individual actually begins to become righteous. This is an important distinction between Catholic theology that teaches righteous works are meritorious towards salvation and Protestant theology that affirms the biblical teaching that righteous works are the result and evidence of a born-again person who has been justified by God and regenerated by the power of the Holy Spirit.​

​

How important is sola fide? It is so important to the Gospel message and a biblical understanding of salvation that Martin Luther described it as being “the article with and by which the church stands.” Those who reject sola fide reject the only Gospel that can save them and by necessity embrace a false gospel. That is why Paul so adamantly denounces those who taught law-keeping or other works of righteousness in Galatians 1:9 and other passages. Yet today this important biblical doctrine is once again under attack. Too often sola fide is relegated to secondary importance instead of being recognized as an essential doctrine of Christianity, which it certainly is.​

​

“Consider Abraham: ‘He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.’ Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: ‘All nations will be blessed through you.’ So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’ Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, ‘The righteous will live by faith’” (Galatians 3:6-11).​

Why is Sola Fide important? (from GotQuestions)

If you choose to reject the Protestant Reformation and embrace the Catholicism that preceded it, that is your choice and you have my blessings (you answer to God and not to me), however, if you are going to public ally denounce “Sola Fide”, you should probably at least know what you are talking about before refuting it.

James 2:24.
Luther was a heretic.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

What do you mean by "convicted of your sin"?

The HOLY SPIRIT will drive home that FACT that you're a SINNER, and in need genuine of cleansing by being Born Again BY FAITH in the SIN OFFERING (Isa 53:10) of Jesus on the Cross. You might have a "Head knowledge" of Biblical information , but "Conviction of SIN" by the holy spirit is the material reality of Romans 10:17 - where THE ABSOLUTE REALITY of your sinful state is hammered home by the Holy Spirit, becoming "HEART KNOWLEDGE" (FAITH) and your proper response (Surrender, and repentance) is how one becomes Born Again, and cleansed of all SIN.

 

[Titus]

So you knew Paul after the flesh? You only have a few words that Paul wrote to others. Not you.

Lets keep going on this. We are getting somewhere.

I'll go ahead and make the claim. You're not imitating Paul. Nor are you imitating Christ.

So again. Why do you believe you have the mind of Christ?

Romans 12:2,
- be transformed by the renewal of your mind

Galatians 5:22-23,
- The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, against such there is no law

Philippian 2:2,
- being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind

 

[TibiasDad]

So it is about motives?

That is a great place to start defining what is real and what isn't.

What motives do you accept and reject?

Only God can judge the motives of men. As a pastor, the motives of a person are, in my experience, disclosed by their actions and reactions to leadership. Humility or lack thereof is key to a motive being proper or not. Motives are either self-centered or focused on the needs of others. So I obviously prefer the latter over the former.

Doug

 

[Jim]

Peter told Jesus that he loved Him and then denied Him.

We're going somewhere here......

Love can only be experienced and learned. It is a process of relationship. I do believe you can love me to a certain degree but that doesn't equal a loving relationship where we love one another.

The Christian loves his neighbor and his enemy in the "agapao" sense. i.e. all humanity in the social and moral sense. In fact that is a command of God, the Son (Matt 5:44).