If that work was more than the work of God, the Holy Spirit, producing the Bible then you are dreaming and that not in a good way.
Need a reason to believe Calvinists are who they claim to be?
- Thread starter Titus
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@Titus, that verse is speaking, not about you, me or anyone else today. The we there are the apostles and prophets who received divine revelation of God through the Holy Spirit. That verse is so often wrongly interpreted as a basis for the false doctrine of illumination. The entire second chapter there is Paul's defense of receipt of the divine disclosure of God's word directly through the Holy Spirit to him and the other apostles and prophets
Titus
Active Member
1 Corinthians 2:16 = Acts 2:42,
- and they(new testament Christians) continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and in fellowship in the breaking of bread and in prayers
1Corinthians 1:10,
- now I plead with you brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you,but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment
1Corinthians 2:16,
- for who has known the mind of the Lord that He may instruct Him, but we have the mind of Christ
Do new testament Christian's not have that same mind?
There is a difference in how it was recieved.
One group through miraculous baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Today through the teaching of those who revealed the mind of God by miraculous knowledge.
Now all in Christ are of the same mind.
That is all prefaced with Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. It ends with Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. Though He compares good fruit and bad fruit, I really believe it isthe false prophets and ravenous wolves that bear the bad fruit that will be recognized. We do not recognize the saints by their fruits; there are sinners who display fruits every bit as "good" as the fruits displayed by the saints. I think that is the basic meaning of John 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.
But perhaps that is just me.
In the very early days of the teachings of Calvin, since there was no way to really know if one was among the elect, many would keep extensive list of their "good fruit" hoping that would be enough to indicate that they had received eternal life.
No!!
But now all in Christ are not of the same mind. That is obvious here at the forum. While I disagree with many here in some pretty fundamental ways, I do still regard (most of) them as brothers in Christ. If in fact we all had the mind of Christ, there would be no divisions such as that which Paul spoke of in chapter 1. There are no divisions in the mind of Christ.
Indeed, Galatians 5:22-23 is true, but it does not say that all those who display such fruit are in the Kingdom. One of my very best friends since the early 70s was a deist who was all those things in those verses better than most that I know that are true Christians. I had more than a few good discussions with him through the years hoping that he would believe in and come to Christ. He died a couple of years ago and I do fear very much for where he stands now.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Titus
Active Member
You are making a logical fallacy.
Since unsaved people have good characters then Christian's with good fruit is no evidence to the world of who is Gods elect.
This is a category error, false equivalence fallacy.
Unsaved people can do externally good deeds.
Luke 6:33,
- and if ye do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you, for even sinners do the same
My point is the lost can do good but it is not fruit of the Spirit like born again christians produce.
John 15:4-5 Jesus clearly identifies that the world CANNOT produce the fruit of the Spirit.
What they do is good but not from a transformed heart that only the Spirit(word) can produce.
- abide in Me and I in you, as the branch Cannot bear fruit of itself but must remain in the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in Me
The lost can do good things by human standards but not by the fruit of the Spirit(spiritual fruit).
Jesus teaches fruit does in fact identify the true followers of Christ.
Matthew 7:16- 19, 20
- you will know them by their fruits
- every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire
- therefore by their fruits you will know them
I suggest Jim, you believe Jesus when He states it is in fact our fruit by which the world knows we are His handiwork.
Ephesians 2:8-10,
- for we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand so we should walk in them
Unsaved folks cannot imitate the fruit of the Spirit in a spiritual sense.
1 Corinthians 2:14,
- but the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, because they are spiritually discerned
The natural man does not make judgments based upon the revelation of the Holy Spirit therefore he cannot be spiritually discerned.
This verse is not teaching that the natural man cannot know Gods will by reading the Bible but that he choses to not believe in Christ.
It has nothing to do with calvanist "illumination "
Titus
Active Member
Hebrews 10:26,
- for if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins
Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
So we agree believe = saved
But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13
Is this group Jesus taught about people who did indeed believe, and were saved, but later on in life because of persecution they fell away because they no longer believed.
Believe = saved
Believe for a while = saved for a while.
@praise_yeshua
You asked: "How did you get that mind"?
Through being born of God's Spirit. The Spirit creates us after the image of Jesus Christ in our new man, thus giving us the true mind of Christ. We are part of his elect body, Christ being the head thereof, thus we have the mind of Christ in our new man, which we are commanded to put on.
According to 1st Corinthians 2:14-16 ~ true wisdom is far above and out of reach of natural men, (one still in the flesh) who cannot understand it at all.
A natural man, born only of the flesh, has no ability to recognize spiritual truth (John 3:3,6). Preaching of gospel truth cannot help a natural man at all, for he will reject the message. Paul has already established this point, but now we are exploring it in more detail (1:18). Without a new man and the presence of the Spirit of God, no man can understand the gospel. There is a violent animosity between the flesh and the things of the Spirit of God (Galatians 5:17). There is violent inability for the flesh nature of man to agree with the spirit (Romans 8:7-8). Neither the Spirit nor any preacher can teach a natural man! He must make him spiritual first! Though the things of the gospel are glorious and terrible, natural men mock them as foolish. Though all and every human effort is made to convince them, they lack ability to learn. Man’s intellectual ability is very great, but his spiritual ability is brutish (Psalm 49:20). The defect is in his motives and affections – for he always hates God (Psalm 10:4; Genesis 6:5).
Paul quoted Isaiah’s rhetorical question in mocking the intelligence of natural man (Isaiah 40:13). No natural man, regardless of intelligence or education, can know or instruct Jehovah at all. There is an infinite distance between the natural wisdom of man and God’s perfect wisdom. By the gracious ordination and regeneration of God, we have the mind of Christ by the Spirit. By the indwelling Spirit of Christ, we have an internal witness to the thoughts of Jehovah. Natural men do not have a clue of divine wisdom, but the saints have a great measure of it. A child of God walking in the Spirit has much glorious wisdom exceeding all natural men. How can we even grasp such a glorious thing? Let us be filled with His fullness (Ephesians 3:19)!
The phrase "saints have the mind of Christ" refers to the idea that God's elect through the indwelling Spirit of God can understand spiritual things, and thus should be guided by God's thoughts, will and desires alone. We all know It's not that saints possess God's omniscience, but rather that they can be transformed to think in accordance with Christ's teachings and example. This transformation involves aligning one's thoughts, desires, and actions with God's will.
I have read all these post since I last posted, and I see a lot of wasted time and energy proving not one thing, or, at least not very much that can be profitable to the saints.
You asked: "How did you get that mind"?
Through being born of God's Spirit. The Spirit creates us after the image of Jesus Christ in our new man, thus giving us the true mind of Christ. We are part of his elect body, Christ being the head thereof, thus we have the mind of Christ in our new man, which we are commanded to put on.
1st Corinthians 2:16
“For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.”Philippians 2:5
“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:”According to 1st Corinthians 2:14-16 ~ true wisdom is far above and out of reach of natural men, (one still in the flesh) who cannot understand it at all.
A natural man, born only of the flesh, has no ability to recognize spiritual truth (John 3:3,6). Preaching of gospel truth cannot help a natural man at all, for he will reject the message. Paul has already established this point, but now we are exploring it in more detail (1:18). Without a new man and the presence of the Spirit of God, no man can understand the gospel. There is a violent animosity between the flesh and the things of the Spirit of God (Galatians 5:17). There is violent inability for the flesh nature of man to agree with the spirit (Romans 8:7-8). Neither the Spirit nor any preacher can teach a natural man! He must make him spiritual first! Though the things of the gospel are glorious and terrible, natural men mock them as foolish. Though all and every human effort is made to convince them, they lack ability to learn. Man’s intellectual ability is very great, but his spiritual ability is brutish (Psalm 49:20). The defect is in his motives and affections – for he always hates God (Psalm 10:4; Genesis 6:5).
2:15 The gospel is easy to men born again, yet there is no visible difference in their constitution.
The spiritual man in this verse is contrasted with the natural man of the previous verse ~ it is a man born again by the Spirit of God, a called saint, a believer, as were the Corinthians. The judgment here is the same with discerning in the previous verse; it is not condemnation. A man with the Spirit of God can judge that the gospel is indeed truth and precious indeed. A born again man, with the Spirit of God in him, easily grasps and loves Christ’s gospel. Not every saint judges all things perfectly, but rather to the degree of his own illumination, and other factors come into play. Natural men have no clue to what governs, directs, instructs, and comforts the child of God. Natural men think the gospel is foolishness, and they think Christians are fanatics and fools. Though saints should be counted the noblest of men, natural men despise and resent them.2:16 The things of God are far beyond human intelligence, but we have the mind of God in us.
Paul quoted Isaiah’s rhetorical question in mocking the intelligence of natural man (Isaiah 40:13). No natural man, regardless of intelligence or education, can know or instruct Jehovah at all. There is an infinite distance between the natural wisdom of man and God’s perfect wisdom. By the gracious ordination and regeneration of God, we have the mind of Christ by the Spirit. By the indwelling Spirit of Christ, we have an internal witness to the thoughts of Jehovah. Natural men do not have a clue of divine wisdom, but the saints have a great measure of it. A child of God walking in the Spirit has much glorious wisdom exceeding all natural men. How can we even grasp such a glorious thing? Let us be filled with His fullness (Ephesians 3:19)!
The phrase "saints have the mind of Christ" refers to the idea that God's elect through the indwelling Spirit of God can understand spiritual things, and thus should be guided by God's thoughts, will and desires alone. We all know It's not that saints possess God's omniscience, but rather that they can be transformed to think in accordance with Christ's teachings and example. This transformation involves aligning one's thoughts, desires, and actions with God's will.
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@praise_yeshua
It is God’s sovereign and gracious choice that any hear or see. Hearing and seeing are not rights; they are blessed privileges. And the greatest gift of hearing and seeing is the ability and desire to discern and receive the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ and the words of wisdom and truth. It is the very rare ability to understand, repent, and obey the gospel.
Spiritual hearing and sight are much more important than physical. It is only by God’s free grace that any sinners are given spiritual ears and eyes to hear and see the things of God. Most men do not think about God in any meaningful way their entire lives (Ps 10:4). Spiritual senses are given when you are born again. You received natural hearing and vision at your first birth; you receive spiritual hearing and vision at your second birth.
There are no human means to bring hearing to ears and sight to eyes. Only the LORD can do this great work. Manmade evangelistic efforts to sound the gospel to deaf ears or show the Saviour to blind eyes are foolish and vain. The gospel is only heard and seen by those already born again, men with hearing ears and seeing eyes (John 3:1-8: Ist Corinthians 1:18,24; 2:14-15).
Salvation is of the Lord! God has chosen some to eternal life (Ephesians 1:4). He sent Jesus Christ to die for their sins, and He will surely regenerate and glorify them (Romans 8:29-33). He gives them hearing ears and seeing eyes. Luke described those who believed Paul this way: “And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48).
I have no clue what you are attempting to ask, and pretty sure you do not either, you're not making very good sense with your question.
Men spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost, so in this sense it is a spiritual book for God's children, but a useless and dead book for the natural man, one that is void of the Spirit of God.
It is hard to corrupt 1st Corinthians 2:14-16, but seeing what you did with Matthew 16:17, I know you are capable of corrupting just about any scriptures.
I fully understand that simple truth, yet we are not discussing their practical walk with God, your words have not one thing to do with the topic under discussion. Natural vss Spiritual............. "you" need to pay better attention!
Your opinion concerning yourself, does not count, it is what others think of us is what truly matters for the most part. Again, one thing going for you is you are not lacking pride, you seem to have a double portion of that cursed sin. Your opinion of me, means very little to me.
1st Corinthians 4:3
“But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.”Not part but totally! The word of God is our only source of information concerning truth, and it is through them that truth comes to us, by of course different means ~ prayer, seeking, trusting, hearing diligently, etc., etc. But, above all, the Spirit must open our hearts to His truth.
Ephesians 1:17,18
“That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,"Proverbs 20:12
“The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.”It is God’s sovereign and gracious choice that any hear or see. Hearing and seeing are not rights; they are blessed privileges. And the greatest gift of hearing and seeing is the ability and desire to discern and receive the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ and the words of wisdom and truth. It is the very rare ability to understand, repent, and obey the gospel.
Spiritual hearing and sight are much more important than physical. It is only by God’s free grace that any sinners are given spiritual ears and eyes to hear and see the things of God. Most men do not think about God in any meaningful way their entire lives (Ps 10:4). Spiritual senses are given when you are born again. You received natural hearing and vision at your first birth; you receive spiritual hearing and vision at your second birth.
There are no human means to bring hearing to ears and sight to eyes. Only the LORD can do this great work. Manmade evangelistic efforts to sound the gospel to deaf ears or show the Saviour to blind eyes are foolish and vain. The gospel is only heard and seen by those already born again, men with hearing ears and seeing eyes (John 3:1-8: Ist Corinthians 1:18,24; 2:14-15).
Salvation is of the Lord! God has chosen some to eternal life (Ephesians 1:4). He sent Jesus Christ to die for their sins, and He will surely regenerate and glorify them (Romans 8:29-33). He gives them hearing ears and seeing eyes. Luke described those who believed Paul this way: “And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48).
We can only know God, and His Son, by the testimony of the holy scriptures, the only means God has given to provide us with words teaching us concerning Himself. Creation reveals, and teaches us, (Psalms 19) but not as the written word of God does, it teaches us doctrines that we come to know and love. Creation reveals the glory of God.....His infinite power, wisdom, etc.
And just how would you know that? The truth? You wouldn't.
That is not a fallacy. There is no way for us to identify who is saved by their actions.
But there is no way for us to establish who is lost and who is saved by their external actions.
No @Titus , I am not contradicting Paul. 1 Corinthians 1:10 is an appeal from Paul that we all agree. It is not a statement of fact.
Are you suggesting that if anyone disagrees with you that they are not a child of God?
If that is true, how is it possible for two different persons, both God's elect, to disagree on any spiritual thing? Red, neither you nor I have the mind of Christ. If we did, we would not disagree in any theological issue.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Why do you need to renew your mind if you have the mind of Christ?
You don't apply any of this to those who sin. Not a single word to those who sin. You have your list of sins that preclude such from those you consider to sin after they've been transformed.
I don't believe you think like Christ. You haven't shown me any evidence of such at all. Jesus Christ forgives me when I sin. He has long suffering toward my imperfections.
You have a flesh just like I do. That flesh is weak. One of these days, inevitably, if you live long enough, your mind is going to deteriorate to the point all you'll going to be able to claim is mercy when you can't do the things you would.
Will you become insufferably lost at time?
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