Moses and Jesus taught free will

exactly its the turning a blind eye to the facts with that systematic as I pointed out earlier.
  1. You are getting sloppy with your punctuation and capitalization ... who are you, e.e. cummings? ;)
  2. Quoting Ephesians is THE BIBLE, not "that systematic" ... any blindness is in the eye that REJECTS the words of God, not the eye that AFFIRMS what they say.
 
  1. You are getting sloppy with your punctuation and capitalization ... who are you, e.e. cummings? ;)
  2. Quoting Ephesians is THE BIBLE, not "that systematic" ... any blindness is in the eye that REJECTS the words of God, not the eye that AFFIRMS what they say.
I do not reject Gods word just the way some interpret His word. A distinction with a difference. ;)
 
I do not reject Gods word just the way some interpret His word. A distinction with a difference. ;)
Let's test that:

WORD OF GOD: "And you were dead in your offenses and sins, in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest."

MY INTERPRETATION:
I read ALL are sinners under condemnation:
  1. What do those WORDS OF GOD say to you?
  2. Do YOU agree or disagree that "all sinners are under condemnation"?

WORD OF GOD: "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."

MY INTERPRETATION:
I read that God did something about it through Jesus: ... God LOVED us and SAVED us by His GRACE (but not ALL without exception will be in Christ in heaven).
  1. What do those WORDS OF GOD say to you?
  2. Do YOU agree or disagree that "God did something about it"?
  3. Do YOU agree or disagree that "God loved us and saved us by His grace"?
  4. Do YOU agree or disagree that "not all without exception will be in heaven"?
 
See here for understanding Ephesians 1-2.

Paul makes the distinction with 2 groups below and contrasts them.

The Jews who were Apostles ( we, us , our )who first believed and were the ones predestined / chosen and with the gentiles ( you ) who believed after, later in verses 13 and beyond. They gentiles did not have the wisdom , knowledge and the mysteries were revealed to the Apostles not the gentiles. Paul is teaching them those mysteries in this letter and educating them. This passage refutes Calvinism it does not support it whatsoever. Only if one uses eisegesis can verses 1-12 be applied to a Calvinist. Exegetically it applies to the Apostles who were given the knowledge, wisdom, the mysteries revealed to them by ejection / predestination not the gentiles in Ephesus.

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Praise for Spiritual Blessings in Christ​

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen,having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

( Now Paul goes from we the apostles to them the gentile Ephesians. The apostles were the first to believe with wisdom from God and not prays for them to have the same wisdom they have)


13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Thanksgiving and Prayer​

15 For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all God’s people, 16 I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

conclusion: the predestined group ( Jewish Apostles ) were the first to believe and were given all wisdom, understanding knowing the mystery of His will. The gentiles ( you, them ) were not the first to believe until way later after Paul was sent to them after Acts 13. Thet were prayed for by Paul as a group to be blesses with wisdom, knowledge, enlightenment so they may know ( they did not know at that time) and did not know the mysteries like the group in 1:3-12. Paul is making the distinction between the Apostles and who he is wrting to like he does in most of his other letters in the introduction of this letter.

 
When did Jesus show you favor? When you were a sinner?

This is getting interesting.... Don't go away. Stick around.
You did not answer the question and clarify what you were objecting to:

So how can you respond in such a manner to confirm what @civic said and not recognize you have?
You've fabricated a special class of sinner that is favored.
Are you NOT a sinner or has Jesus NOT shown you favor?
I am confused exactly which claim you are denying.

[PS. I don't "go away" ... I have you on "ignore" to avoid wasting time with someone that never responds. I just happened to click "show ignored content" and saw your post. Once again, you didn't bother paying any attention to what I wrote, so I was just wasting my time.]
 
Children of wrath just like the rest.

hope this helps !!!
I asked 6 specific question intended to FIRST offer you a chance to explain the meaning of the specific verses that I presented (which you claimed to "not reject") and THEN to identify which of my interpretations you agree or disagree with (since you claimed to reject the way "some interpret His word").

If "Children of wrath just like the rest" is a response to one of those 6 questions, it is unclear which question you are responding to and your response is woefully incomplete.

Let's test that:
... Test failed.
 
See here for understanding Ephesians 1-2.

Paul makes the distinction with 2 groups below and contrasts them.

The Jews who were Apostles ( we, us , our )who first believed and were the ones predestined / chosen and with the gentiles ( you ) who believed after, later in verses 13 and beyond. They gentiles did not have the wisdom , knowledge and the mysteries were revealed to the Apostles not the gentiles. Paul is teaching them those mysteries in this letter and educating them. This passage refutes Calvinism it does not support it whatsoever. Only if one uses eisegesis can verses 1-12 be applied to a Calvinist. Exegetically it applies to the Apostles who were given the knowledge, wisdom, the mysteries revealed to them by ejection / predestination not the gentiles in Ephesus.

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Praise for Spiritual Blessings in Christ​

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen,having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

( Now Paul goes from we the apostles to them the gentile Ephesians. The apostles were the first to believe with wisdom from God and not prays for them to have the same wisdom they have)


13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Thanksgiving and Prayer​

15 For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all God’s people, 16 I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

conclusion: the predestined group ( Jewish Apostles ) were the first to believe and were given all wisdom, understanding knowing the mystery of His will. The gentiles ( you, them ) were not the first to believe until way later after Paul was sent to them after Acts 13. Thet were prayed for by Paul as a group to be blesses with wisdom, knowledge, enlightenment so they may know ( they did not know at that time) and did not know the mysteries like the group in 1:3-12. Paul is making the distinction between the Apostles and who he is wrting to like he does in most of his other letters in the introduction of this letter.

Still boring and I still disagree but that, like the response, is irrelevant.

This post does not explain what the quoted verses from Ephesians 2 mean to YOU as contrasted with what I claim they mean. In addition, you have failed to answer any of the following questions whose answers can be located in OTHER scripture if you choose to reject Ephesians as not applicable to the saints.

  1. Do YOU agree or disagree that "all sinners are under condemnation"?
  1. Do YOU agree or disagree that "God did something about it"?
  1. Do YOU agree or disagree that "God loved us and saved us by His grace"?
  1. Do YOU agree or disagree that "not all without exception will be in heaven"?
 
Still boring and I still disagree but that, like the response, is irrelevant.

This post does not explain what the quoted verses from Ephesians 2 mean to YOU as contrasted with what I claim they mean. In addition, you have failed to answer any of the following questions whose answers can be located in OTHER scripture if you choose to reject Ephesians as not applicable to the saints.
All means all under sin and condemnation.

God provided a way out it’s called faith not election.
 
God provided a way out it’s called faith not election.
Semantics ...
  • "For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith."
  • "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:"
  • "For who considers you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?"
The point is ...
  • YOU agree that "all sinners are under condemnation"!
  • YOU agree that "God did something about it"!
Do YOU agree or disagree that "God loved us and saved us by His grace"?

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."

"And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Just for "them" or for "US", too?
 
Salvation in Eph 2 is for everyone who believes. Election in Eph 1 is the Apostle’s like I explained earlier
 
You did not answer the question and clarify what you were objecting to:


Are you NOT a sinner or has Jesus NOT shown you favor?
I am confused exactly which claim you are denying.

I asked you a question that will give you the answer. Again....

When did Jesus show you favor? When you were a sinner?

It is rather obvious that you're claiming that God showed you favor before you were ever born. So you're conflating two very different conditions. You have created a distinct class of what you reference as "sinners" in your theology.

[PS. I don't "go away" ... I have you on "ignore" to avoid wasting time with someone that never responds. I just happened to click "show ignored content" and saw your post. Once again, you didn't bother paying any attention to what I wrote, so I was just wasting my time.]

I am under no obligation to answer you exactly in the manner you demand. No one is. You falsely claim that I haven't answered you. I have.
 
No God cteated them for destruction without ever having any chance to believe or receive the gospel through regeneration. Remember calvinists believe God must regenerate you first prior to believing since you are a corpse who is dead. So all those who God does not regenerate were predestined to damnation the elect reprobates in double predestination.

Nobody is denied a chance to hear the Gospel. In my opinion, the whole point of the part of Revelation where the angel preaches the Gospel to every nation is to establish that no one had an excuse. Receive the Gospel through regeneration, however, is a different issue.
 
I just wanted to point out that his 'dual nature' (which I don't like that term) means that he had sometimes feelings that were entirely human, as I continued to develop farther on in the post.
To what end? What did it have to do with what we were talking about?
I did not mean he was not walking in the Spirit. I meant that he was, after all, human, and not fully abreast of all God had decreed to come to pass.
Still you're not being clear. Are you saying he would not have been trying to cause Nicodemus to believe and others to believe using natural illustrations if he knew they wouldn't receive?
That is not a lack. If it is non-existent, it is a bogus concept. You are inserting what you imagine as substantial, but it is not of substance. The Spirit can indeed grieve, as can the Father and Son. How is that a lack of something?
What do you mean it's bogus? And not substantial? Again I don't believe you really believe that. If you had three kids and 1\ of them rejected you, you telling me you wouldn't feel a loss? Come on now.

When God is grieved, he also has joy.
Well yes....if two kids loved you yes you'd feel joy but by actions of a third one who treated you like a dog I mean come on.....you telling me you don't feel a loss? There's still a loss. So it's not one or the other it's both. God isn't as one dimensional as you might think.

 
Nobody is denied a chance to hear the Gospel. In my opinion, the whole point of the part of Revelation where the angel preaches the Gospel to every nation is to establish that no one had an excuse. Receive the Gospel through regeneration, however, is a different issue.
No same issue only those who are regenerated can hear, receive, believe and respond to the gospel. In Calvinist the dead unregenerate and non elect cannot hear or believe the gospel. Calvinism 101.

hope this helps !!!
 
No same issue only those who are regenerated can hear, receive, believe and respond to the gospel. In Calvinist the dead unregenerate and non elect cannot hear or believe the gospel. Calvinism 101.

That was the point. Read the passage where Jesus tells everyone they must eat His flesh and drink His blood. He was making a similar point.
 
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