Mark 16:16~"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

[TomL]

Show me your faith without works? It cannot be done. I will show you my faith with my works. Faith is made complete through works. Without works faith is incomplete, and thus dead. Dead faith cannot save. Living faith must precede salvation.

Again, that is not what Scripture says (James 2:14-26).

Show me where James states believing you are not saved until water baptism proves you have a living faith and believing you are saved previous to water baptism means you do not have a living faith

Also where James states water baptism is a proof of living faith

it's not in the passage and James does not support your views

 

[dwight92070]

Doug - Show me your faith without works? It cannot be done.

That's an easy one. Paul showed us clearly in Romans 4:1-4 that Abraham believed God without works.
In verse 2, Paul is saying that Abraham had nothing to boast about, that he did no work. Verse 3 says he simply believed and God credited him as being righteous. Verse 4 If Abraham had worked, then God would have owed him. Verse 5 Paul confirms it again that Abraham "did not work, but believed in Him who justified the ungodly" Therefore his faith, without works, was credited to him as righteousness.

As if that wasn't enough, Paul goes on to speak of David who also was credited as righteous "apart from works" Verse 6. Then David pronounces a blessing on the man whose sins have been forgiven, whose sins the Lord will not take into account, again without performing works.

In verse 9, Paul sums it up clearly: "Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness." without works.

Apart from devious twisting of the meaning of this passage, you really can't get around the obvious teaching that Paul is presenting here. And it does not support your doctrine.

You don't want to accept the fact that James is NOT speaking of faith for salvation, for no works can help, otherwise we could boast, as Paul said. He is speaking of faith AFTER salvation, which does produce works

 

[TomL]

Doug - Show me your faith without works? It cannot be done.

That's an easy one. Paul showed us clearly in Romans 4:1-4 that Abraham believed God without works.
In verse 2, Paul is saying that Abraham had nothing to boast about, that he did no work. Verse 3 says he simply believed and God credited him as being righteous. Verse 4 If Abraham had worked, then God would have owed him. Verse 5 Paul confirms it again that Abraham "did not work, but believed in Him who justified the ungodly" Therefore his faith, without works, was credited to him as righteousness.

As if that wasn't enough, Paul goes on to speak of David who also was credited as righteous "apart from works" Verse 6. Then David pronounces a blessing on the man whose sins have been forgiven, whose sins the Lord will not take into account, again without performing works.

In verse 9, Paul sums it up clearly: "Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness." without works.

Apart from devious twisting of the meaning of this passage, you really can't get around the obvious teaching that Paul is presenting here. And it does not support your doctrine.

You don't want to accept the fact that James is NOT speaking of faith for salvation, for no works can help, otherwise we could boast, as Paul said. He is speaking of faith AFTER salvation, which does produce works

Yes, Abraham's faith was a living faith previous to any works

 

[Doug Brents]

Totally missing the point

that speaks of a demonstration of faith but it is not a prooftext for the non-existence of faith

Abrahams faith was alive, not dead before the demonstration of it.

The body without the spirit is dead, so too is faith (James 2:26). If there is no action, then faith is dead, and dead faith cannot save. Salvation is brought to us from God through faith (Eph 2:8), and dead faith cannot bring salvation from God.

Further nowhere does scripture state the only way faith can be shown to be living is by water baptism.

Simon was water baptism and apparently unsaved

What does Scripture say is when salvation is received? When do we die to sin? When are we united with Jesus' resurrection? According to Col 2 and Rom 6, it is during baptism, and as Jesus Himself said, those who hear the Gospel, believe it, and are baptized into Christ will be saved. That means that baptism is the step of faith during which salvation is received.

Sorry James speaks of a said faith not true faith

True faith drives one to act, but it precedes the act

Any faith that precedes action is incomplete without the action. Incomplete faith is dead faith, and dead faith cannot bring salvation.

 

[Doug Brents]

That's an easy one. Paul showed us clearly in Romans 4:1-4 that Abraham believed God without works.
In verse 2, Paul is saying that Abraham had nothing to boast about, that he did no work. Verse 3 says he simply believed and God credited him as being righteous.

Abraham did not "simply believe". He had faith (pistis), and faith is not real unless it has action.

Verse 4 If Abraham had worked, then God would have owed him. Verse 5 Paul confirms it again that Abraham "did not work, but believed in Him who justified the ungodly" Therefore his faith, without works, was credited to him as righteousness.

His faith, without works of righteousness, but including the demonstration of his trust/faith that God would fulfill His promises is what was credited to him as righteousness.

As if that wasn't enough, Paul goes on to speak of David who also was credited as righteous "apart from works" Verse 6. Then David pronounces a blessing on the man whose sins have been forgiven, whose sins the Lord will not take into account, again without performing works.

Not without action of any kind. None but the most defiant and rebellious against God could read Rom 10:9-10 and deny that confession of Jesus as Lord is a physical act, that it results in (thus must precede the reception of) salvation, and that it is required before salvation can be received. Thus, confession of Jesus as Lord is an action that man must take to receive salvation. This cannot be argued or debated without gross rebellion against God. But even confession of Jesus as Lord is not stated in Scripture as the point at which we die to sin, and are resurrected with Christ; baptism is.

In verse 9, Paul sums it up clearly: "Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness." without works.

Faith is never "without works". Again, James 2:24, "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." This is not "works of righteousness", but it is physical action.

Apart from devious twisting of the meaning of this passage, you really can't get around the obvious teaching that Paul is presenting here. And it does not support your doctrine.

You don't want to accept the fact that James is NOT speaking of faith for salvation, for no works can help, otherwise we could boast, as Paul said. He is speaking of faith AFTER salvation, which does produce works

Then why does James mention salvation twice in this passage? James 2:14, "What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" James 2:24, "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." Without action we cannot, and will not, be saved. Faith must produce action BEFORE salvation is received. Then after salvation is received, faith produces the fruit that flows from the Spirit within.

 

[TomL]

The body without the spirit is dead, so too is faith (James 2:26). If there is no action, then faith is dead, and dead faith cannot save. Salvation is brought to us from God through faith (Eph 2:8), and dead faith cannot bring salvation from God.

I do not see any mention of water baptism in that verse

Is it your view James is speaking of making faith alive by water baptism?

What does Scripture say is when salvation is received? When do we die to sin? When are we united with Jesus' resurrection? According to Col 2 and Rom 6, it is during baptism, and as Jesus Himself said, those who hear the Gospel, believe it, and are baptized into Christ will be saved. That means that baptism is the step of faith during which salvation is received.

Any faith that precedes action is incomplete without the action. Incomplete faith is dead faith, and dead faith cannot bring salvation.

sorry there is no mention of water in Rom 6 or col 2

No mention of a baptism into water

There is a baptism into Christ and that is effected by the spirit not water

1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

and therefore a baptism into his death as union with Christ unites us with him in his death

Romans 6:5–11 (ESV) — 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

water does not effect those things.


Again salvation is received upon faith

John 5:24 (ESV) — 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

We die to sin when we are united with Christ through the baptism en the Spirit

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[Doug Brents]

I do not see any mention of water baptism in that verse

Is it your view James is speaking of making faith alive by water baptism?

No, other passages of Scripture do that. James is making the point that faith is not alive without taking the appropriate action. The appropriate action could be anything, but in the case of salvation it is the things that God has said lead to the reception of salvation.

sorry there is no mention of water in Rom 6 or col 2

There is only one baptism in the NT Church (Eph 4:4-6), and since the baptism that saves (Mark 16:16) is something that man does (Matt 28:19), and is in water (1 Pet 3:21), the baptism during which the Spirit removes our sins, resurrects our soul, and unites us with Christ (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14) must be in water.

No mention of a baptism into water

There is a baptism into Christ and that is effected by the spirit not water

This is not correct. As noted directly above, the Spirit performs His actions that restore us to union with God during water baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

and therefore a baptism into his death as union with Christ unites us with him in his death

Romans 6:5–11 (ESV) — 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

water does not effect those things.

It does. Going back to Rom 6:3-4, we see that we die with Christ in baptism. And then in verse 5, as you point out, IF we have been united with Him in death, THEN we will be united with Him in His resurrection. If we have not been united with Him in death through baptism, then we are not united with Him in resurrection.

Again salvation is received upon faith

John 5:24 (ESV) — 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

We die to sin when we are united with Christ through the baptism en the Spirit

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

And again, if it were only Spirit baptism then 1 Pet 3:21, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 and there passages become lies (and we all know and agree that there is no lie, error, or contradiction in Scripture).

 

[TomL]

No, other passages of Scripture do that. James is making the point that faith is not alive without taking the appropriate action. The appropriate action could be anything, but in the case of salvation it is the things that God has said lead to the reception of salvation.

No james is not speak,ing about making faith alive but how you can determine whether a faith is living or dead

There is only one baptism in the NT Church (Eph 4:4-6), and since the baptism that saves (Mark 16:16) is something that man does (Matt 28:19), and is in water (1 Pet 3:21), the baptism during which the Spirit removes our sins, resurrects our soul, and unites us with Christ (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14) must be in water.

Sorry context shows it is that of the Spirit

Ephesians 4:4–6 (KJV 1900) — 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

It is the baptism en the holy Ghost baptizing one into the body of Christ upon faith

You merely assume water

This is not correct. As noted directly above, the Spirit performs His actions that restore us to union with God during water baptism.

Did not happen that way with the gentiles, the Samaritan or the disciples of John in Acts 19

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
One in sealed in Christ by the reception of the Spirit during the baptism en the Spirit

It does. Going back to Rom 6:3-4, we see that we die with Christ in baptism. And then in verse 5, as you point out, IF we have been united with Him in death, THEN we will be united with Him in His resurrection. If we have not been united with Him in death through baptism, then we are not united with Him in resurrection.

Sorry the Spirit not water causes one to die to sin

The Spirit places us in Christ not water and it is upon faith

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

You insert water where it does not appear

And again, if it were only Spirit baptism then 1 Pet 3:21, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 and there passages become lies (and we all know and agree that there is no lie, error, or contradiction in Scripture).

Nope one real baptism and its symbol

If one is saved upon faith

he who believes and is baptized is of course saved

when did these pass from death to life?

John 5:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


when are men sealed in Christ?

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

When do men receive remission of sin?

Acts 10:43 (KJV 1900) — 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

When are they justified?

Romans 3:25–26 (KJV 1900) — 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

[Doug Brents]

No james is not speak,ing about making faith alive but how you can determine whether a faith is living or dead

James 2:22, "You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected" or completed. Imperfect or incomplete faith is dead. Dead faith is useless. Thus, faith that does not include action is dead and useless, and cannot save.

Sorry context shows it is that of the Spirit

Ephesians 4:4–6 (KJV 1900) — 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

It is the baptism en the holy Ghost baptizing one into the body of Christ upon faith

You merely assume water

I assume nothing. Scripture says that the one baptism that saves is the baptism that man does in water. You are trying to remove water in rebellion to God, and denial of His Word.

Did not happen that way with the gentiles, the Samaritan or the disciples of John in Acts 19

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
One in sealed in Christ by the reception of the Spirit during the baptism en the Spirit

How did they believe/have faith? Through obedience to the Gospel that Paul preached which included baptism in water in order to receive forgiveness of their sins, just as Jesus commanded, and the Apostles Peter preached in the first sermon preached in the New Covenant.

Sorry the Spirit not water causes one to die to sin

When does Rom 6:3-4 say that happens? In Baptism.

The Spirit places us in Christ not water and it is upon faith

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

You insert water where it does not appear

In "insert" nothing. I simply recognize that ALL Scripture works together when we accept that the ONE baptism in the NT Church requires water as the Scriptures state.

Nope one real baptism and its symbol

If one is saved upon faith

he who believes and is baptized is of course saved

when did these pass from death to life?

John 5:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

This verse uses more generalized language than Rom 6:1-7 or Col 2:11-14. The more specific must be used to interpret the more general. "Believes" (Has faith) is vague and does not specify a specific time, but "in baptism" is much more specific and tells us when in the faith process salvation is actually received.

when are men sealed in Christ?

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Another verse that uses more generalized language than Rom 6:1-7 or Col 2:11-14.

When do men receive remission of sin?

Acts 10:43 (KJV 1900) — 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Another verse that uses more generalized language than Rom 6:1-7 or Col 2:11-14.

When are they justified?

Romans 3:25–26 (KJV 1900) — 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Another verse that uses more generalized language than Rom 6:1-7 or Col 2:11-14. You like to focus on generalized language instead of looking at specifics and details. Look at the more specific passages, and let them be the commentary on the more generalized passages.

 

[TomL]

James 2:22, "You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected" or completed. Imperfect or incomplete faith is dead. Dead faith is useless. Thus, faith that does not include action is dead and useless, and cannot save.

Abraham was justified when he believed

Romans 4:1–6 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

James cannot change that fact

I assume nothing. Scripture says that the one baptism that saves is the baptism that man does in water. You are trying to remove water in rebellion to God, and denial of His Word.

No it does not

You assume that. It is presence of the Holy Spirit which seals a man in Christ

How did they believe/have faith? Through obedience to the Gospel that Paul preached which included baptism in water in order to receive forgiveness of their sins, just as Jesus commanded, and the Apostles Peter preached in the first sermon preached in the New Covenant.

Um Water baptism is not preached the gospel Paul preached

1 Corinthians 15:1–6 (KJV 1900) — 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

and that gospel which contained no water was instrumental in causing them to be born again

and again

Acts 10:43 (KJV 1900) — 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 3:21–26 (KJV 1900) — 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

No water there

When does Rom 6:3-4 say that happens? In Baptism.

No mention of water there either

it is the Spirit which unites us to Christ


Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

In "insert" nothing. I simply recognize that ALL Scripture works together when we accept that the ONE baptism in the NT Church requires water as the Scriptures state.

Of the Spirit

Ephesians 4:3–5 (KJV 1900) — 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,


it is the one spirit who places us in the One lord

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

How can someone sealed in Christ be unsaved?

1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Placed in the body of Christ and indwelt by the Spirit it is not possible one could be unsaved

 

[Doug Brents]

Abraham was justified when he believed

Romans 4:1–6 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

James cannot change that fact

It does not change the fact that he was justified when he "believed", but it does correct our understanding of what it means to "believe". "Believe" means faith, and faith is a combination of intellectual assent and action in response to it. This is what it means to trust. If you do not take action, then you don't really trust. If someone gives you a tip on a stock and you take action on that tip, then you trusted the source; you had faith in the source. If you do not take action on the source of the tip, then you did not have faith in the source. If you trust God, then you will take action on the things He tells you will lead to receiving His forgiveness and justification (faith). If you do not trust Him, then you will not take action (no faith).

No it does not

You assume that. It is presence of the Holy Spirit which seals a man in Christ

And that presence is received when we are baptized. When we are baptized into Christ we are clothed with Christ (Gal 3:26-27), and we die to sin (Rom 6:3-4), and our past sin is cut from us (Col 2:11-12), and we are resurrected with Christ (Col 2:12, Rom 6:4-6) and we are sanctified, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing (Eph 5:26-27).

Um Water baptism is not preached the gospel Paul preached

1 Corinthians 15:1–6 (KJV 1900) — 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

That is the basis of the Gospel, but it does not include the call to action that is necessary to receive salvation. But Paul did preach baptism as the point at which we receive salvation (as evidenced by his statements in Col 2 and Rom 6).

and that gospel which contained no water was instrumental in causing them to be born again

and again

Acts 10:43 (KJV 1900) — 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 3:21–26 (KJV 1900) — 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

No water there

Water is indicated in any baptism that brings about salvation, because there is only one baptism in the NT Church, and it is the point at which we receive salvation, and it is something that man does, and it requires water (see all the passages I have already cited in reference to each of these points.)

 

[TomL]

It does not change the fact that he was justified when he "believed", but it does correct our understanding of what it means to "believe". "Believe" means faith, and faith is a combination of intellectual assent and action in response to it.

Sorry no The definition of faith is not belief plus water baptism

James nowhere mentions it

Why do you assume that is the one thing that makes faith alive

You are simply assuming your doctrine not proving it

This is what it means to trust. If you do not take action, then you don't really trust. If someone gives you a tip on a stock and you take action on that tip, then you trusted the source; you had faith in the source. If you do not take action on the source of the tip, then you did not have faith in the source. If you trust God, then you will take action on the things He tells you will lead to receiving His forgiveness and justification (faith). If you do not trust Him, then you will not take action (no faith).

Again trust does not mean to be water baptism

Why do you assume that to be the one manner in which trust exists

And that presence is received when we are baptized. When we are baptized into Christ we are clothed with Christ (Gal 3:26-27), and we die to sin (Rom 6:3-4), and our past sin is cut from us (Col 2:11-12), and we are resurrected with Christ (Col 2:12, Rom 6:4-6) and we are sanctified, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing (Eph 5:26-27).

We are baptized in christ - placed in him when we believe by the promised Holy spirit

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

that is not about water

That is the basis of the Gospel, but it does not include the call to action that is necessary to receive salvation. But Paul did preach baptism as the point at which we receive salvation (as evidenced by his statements in Col 2 and Rom 6).

sorry there is no water in the gospel Paul preached

1 Corinthians 15:1–6 (KJV 1900) — 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

you have assumed water and read it into the text

Water is indicated in any baptism that brings about salvation, because there is only one baptism in the NT Church, and it is the point at which we receive salvation, and it is something that man does, and it requires water (see all the passages I have already cited in reference to each of these points.)

sorry no

The gentiles were saved at their baptism en the holy Ghost

Acts 10:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Acts 11:15–18 (KJV 1900) — 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Acts 15:7–9 (KJV 1900) — 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

 

[Doug Brents]

Sorry no The definition of faith is not belief plus water baptism

James nowhere mentions it

Why do you assume that is the one thing that makes faith alive

You are simply assuming your doctrine not proving it



Again trust does not mean to be water baptism

Why do you assume that to be the one manner in which trust exists


We are baptized in christ - placed in him when we believe by the promised Holy spirit

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

that is not about water







sorry there is no water in the gospel Paul preached

1 Corinthians 15:1–6 (KJV 1900) — 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

you have assumed water and read it into the text



sorry no

The gentiles were saved at their baptism en the holy Ghost

Acts 10:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Acts 11:15–18 (KJV 1900) — 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Acts 15:7–9 (KJV 1900) — 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

We have covered this over and over, and you refuse to accept the Scriptures that don't agree with your preconception. I am done debating this with you. When you are willing to accept proper definitions and the associations Scripture makes between salvation and obedience, then we can readdress this.

 

[TomL]

We have covered this over and over, and you refuse to accept the Scriptures that don't agree with your preconception. I am done debating this with you. When you are willing to accept proper definitions and the associations Scripture makes between salvation and obedience, then we can readdress this.

No I refuse to accept your denial of many verses. Far more than you could ever hope to appeal to

Let me know when you can do more than repeat the claims of your theology and address the many verses contrary to it.

 

[Truther]

I was baptized by the authority of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit

immersed in a Church of Christ.

(so called immersion is one of the valid ways to baptize along with sprinkling and pouring)

If that is not good enough for your that is your problem

“Father” has no authority. “Son” has no authority. “Holy Ghos has no authority. You should’ve had the name of Jesus invoked during your baptism.

There is no other name given under heaven among men whereby we must be saved. That name is Jesus. Also, please don’t try to pray for people in the titles. It won’t work.

 

[Truther]

Not quite what Jesus stated in Mat 28:19

Are you a oneness pentecostal or person?

I am a first century, oneness believer.

 

[Truther]

Care to quote someone who stated their name was Jesus?

Peter in Acts 2:38

 

[Truther]

No, it is not

Matthew 28:19 (ESV) — 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

So, you should remove the name of the son? Not a bad idea since you don’t know what the name of the son is.
I’ll tell you what, let’s just call the son, “son”. Deal? Let’s stop saying Jesus and let’s just say “in son’s name”.
Let’s see how much power we can get from that.

 

[TomL]

So, you should remove the name of the son? Not a bad idea since you don’t know what the name of the son is.
I’ll tell you what, let’s just call the son, “son”. Deal? Let’s stop saying Jesus and let’s just say “in son’s name”.
Let’s see how much power we can get from that.

Why did you fail to deal with the fact your claim was refuted

Jesus stated

Matthew 28:18–19 (KJV 1900) — 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

And apparently contrary to you Jesus held there is authority in the father name

BTW was Jesus praying to himself

John 14:16–17 (KJV 1900) — 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

[TomL]

Peter in Acts 2:38

Try again

Acts 2:22–33 (KJV 1900) — 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.