If a General makes someone a Captain, does that mean that the General created the person he promoted? Only in your mind.
Made lower than the angels means what ?
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Maurice
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CHRIST OUR FORERUNNER
The creation account of Genesis explains to us that God created man in His own image and intended him to rule over all the earth as His viceregent. That God conferred such a privileged title upon a mere creature of clay moved the psalmist to exclaim with wonder:
When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You have ordained, what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man that You visit him? For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and You have crowned him with glory and honor. You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet.
God put all things under the feet of our father, Adam. God made him to be the crown of creation, the head of his race, and the ruler over the works of God. Nevertheless, he quickly fell under the deceit of the serpent and joined him in his rebellion. As a result, man forfeited his exalted place, throwing the whole creation into chaos, futility, and the slavery of corruption.
Furthermore, man had to leave the presence of God and became subject to divine justice, resulting in death.From the vantage point of man, Paradise was lost and recovery was an absolute impossibility. Yet in the mystery of God’s providence, a great work drafted before the very foundation of the world would be unfolded! In the fullness of time, God sent forth His Son to join Adam’s fallen race, to redeem a people for God, and to restore them to a glory that would far exceed that which was lost!
This is the great argument of the second chapter of the book of Hebrews:
For He [God] has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels. But one testified in a certain place, saying: “What is man that You are mindful of him, or the son of man that You take care of him? You have made him a little lower than the angels; You have crowned him with glory and honor, and set him over the works of Your hands. You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”
For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.According to the wisdom given to the writer of Hebrews, God has a plan for a new creation, for a world that is to come.
This new world will not be subject to angels, but to those who have been redeemed from Adam’s fallen race. For this reason, the eternal Son of God was made for a little while lower than the angels so that He might taste death for every one of His people, redeem them from the penalty of death, and restore them to the glorious position that God has designated for them. At the present, it is obvious to all that this design is yet to be fulfilled in its entirety, for we do not yet see all things subject to God’s redeemed people.
However, we do see Jesus raised from the dead, ascended to the right hand of the Majesty on high, and crowned with glory and honor. He has gone before His people as the Captain of their salvation. He is the Pledge of a present hope and the Forerunner who will bring many sons to glory! The Scriptures declare that the creation itself longs anxiously for the revealing of the sons of God and groans for its freedom from slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Because of this one Man, Jesus, creation will not be disappointed, and neither will we!
Paul Washer, The Gospel’s Power and Message, Recovering the Gospel
The creation account of Genesis explains to us that God created man in His own image and intended him to rule over all the earth as His viceregent. That God conferred such a privileged title upon a mere creature of clay moved the psalmist to exclaim with wonder:
When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You have ordained, what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man that You visit him? For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and You have crowned him with glory and honor. You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet.
God put all things under the feet of our father, Adam. God made him to be the crown of creation, the head of his race, and the ruler over the works of God. Nevertheless, he quickly fell under the deceit of the serpent and joined him in his rebellion. As a result, man forfeited his exalted place, throwing the whole creation into chaos, futility, and the slavery of corruption.
Furthermore, man had to leave the presence of God and became subject to divine justice, resulting in death.From the vantage point of man, Paradise was lost and recovery was an absolute impossibility. Yet in the mystery of God’s providence, a great work drafted before the very foundation of the world would be unfolded! In the fullness of time, God sent forth His Son to join Adam’s fallen race, to redeem a people for God, and to restore them to a glory that would far exceed that which was lost!
This is the great argument of the second chapter of the book of Hebrews:
For He [God] has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels. But one testified in a certain place, saying: “What is man that You are mindful of him, or the son of man that You take care of him? You have made him a little lower than the angels; You have crowned him with glory and honor, and set him over the works of Your hands. You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”
For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.According to the wisdom given to the writer of Hebrews, God has a plan for a new creation, for a world that is to come.
This new world will not be subject to angels, but to those who have been redeemed from Adam’s fallen race. For this reason, the eternal Son of God was made for a little while lower than the angels so that He might taste death for every one of His people, redeem them from the penalty of death, and restore them to the glorious position that God has designated for them. At the present, it is obvious to all that this design is yet to be fulfilled in its entirety, for we do not yet see all things subject to God’s redeemed people.
However, we do see Jesus raised from the dead, ascended to the right hand of the Majesty on high, and crowned with glory and honor. He has gone before His people as the Captain of their salvation. He is the Pledge of a present hope and the Forerunner who will bring many sons to glory! The Scriptures declare that the creation itself longs anxiously for the revealing of the sons of God and groans for its freedom from slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Because of this one Man, Jesus, creation will not be disappointed, and neither will we!
Paul Washer, The Gospel’s Power and Message, Recovering the Gospel
It actually cripples your point because ηλαττωσας is not a "make" in a creation sense. It's a make in a "lessen (in rank or influence): - decrease, make lower" sense. If being goofy allows you to dodge reality then that's on you.I'm not running. If you do not find humor in YOU RUNNING to a foreign language, only to find MAKE in the definition, which strenthens my point, get yourself a sense of humor friend.
Then do you concur with what I subsequently said or is this another case of Run Unitarian Run:I couldn't have said it better myself.
Actually, there's no need to appeal to the Koine Greek in this case. That is correct. God did make Jesus both Lord and Christ. In similar fashion to how God granted full authority to Jesus to lay down His life (John 10:17-18) God granted Jesus full authority to be Lord and Christ. This has nothing to do with with your false ontological idea that the Word of God (Jesus) "was a created Being".
Huh?
(John 3:16) For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.Even though you are paraphrasing here and failing to aknowledge Scripture says nothing about authorizing here. Twice God gave Jesus.
It is not "the Father" who gave Jesus, made Jesus, authorized Jesus; it was God - in his unitarian nature. Just as you confessed in this post. Thanks!
- Once to the world to save it. John 3:16
- Once to show to his servants things that must happen soon. Rev 1:1
If there's a Son usually there's a Father. It's not rocket science we're talking about here.
Wrangler
Well-known member
The idea that every father who ever lived created his son EXCEPT God is preposterous!
We're making some progress here. This time you managed not to toss out any portion of Rev 1:1 as "irrelevant". Good.I kind of wish you and other trinitarians would stop declaring victory in the face of your own defeat.
Once again, I am not running. An interesting analysis of Rev 1:1 regarding agency. Worldwide English (New Testament)
1 God showed these things to Jesus Christ to show to his servants. These are things that must happen soon. Then God sent his angel and showed them to John, his servant.
God to his agent and servant Jesus.
Then God to his other agent and servant, his angel.
Then God to his other agent and servant, John.
God in his unitarian nature --> Jesus --> Angel --> John --> Remaining Saints, including you and me.
So what's the purpose of all of this? "To show to his servants" what must shortly come to pass. At this point it becomes clear that Rev 1:1 is talking about Christ's Mediator role, meaning that the revelation that John received from His Father, to write down by the Holy Spirit, comes only through Christ, as authorized by God the Father. In other words, no one can receive spiritual gifts, bessings, nor revelation apart from Jesus, the One Mediator between the Father and man. So it's not that Jesus knows nothing (which would contradict John 7:29, Matt 11:27, etc...); it's that what Jesus does know from the Father is authorized by the Father to Jesus for it to be revealed to John through the Holy Spirit.
You missed the point, as usual. The idea that a Son has no Father is preposterous!
It's not rocket science.
Wrangler
Well-known member
Agh ha. Reduce or lessen are not synonyms for MAKE - unless you are trying to skirt MADE LESS OR MAKE LESSER.
At least you admit God made Jesus in Acts 2:36.
Wrangler
Well-known member
That the trinity is wrong. Jesus is not God.
One powerful way we know that is juxtaposition. God gave Jesus the revelation (and his purpose for doing so is irrelevant to the purpose of disproving the trinity, that God gave Jesus the revelation.)
Wrangler
Well-known member
LOL Jesus is not called the son of the father.
Guess again.
(2 John 1:3) Grace will be with you, mercy and peace from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Dizerner
Well-known member
Fathers do not "create," only God creates.
They just facilitate the generation of their own kind by an established system.
I'm not skirting anything. Jesus made himself of no reputation while on Earth:
Php 2:5 For let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
Php 2:7 but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Himself the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
I admit that Acts 2:36 has nothing to do with your false ontological idea that the Word of God (Jesus) "was a created Being". In similar fashion to how God granted full authority to Jesus to lay down His life (John 10:17-18), God granted Jesus full authority to be Lord and Christ.
Jesus obviously did not get that Unitarian memo when He proclaimed that He is the "I Am" of the OT Who existed before Abraham existed.
You continue to toss away portions of Scripture that do not conform to your distorted Unitarian presuppositions. That is exactly what you're doing with the "to declare to His servants things which must shortly come to pass" portion of Rev 1:1.
(Rev 1:1) A Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to declare to His servants things which must shortly come to pass. And He signified it by sending His angel to His servant John,
You are forced to do that becomes that portion of Rev 1:1 is talking about Christ's Mediator role, meaning that the revelation that John received from His Father, to write down by the Holy Spirit, comes only through Christ, as authorized by God the Father. In other words, no one can receive spiritual gifts, bessings, nor revelation apart from Jesus, the One Mediator between the Father and man. So it's not that Jesus knows nothing (which would contradict John 7:29, Matt 11:27, etc...); it's that what Jesus does know from the Father is authorized by the Father to Jesus for it to be revealed to John through the Holy Spirit.
Wrangler
Well-known member
Wrangler
Well-known member
Sure he did get the unitarian memo since Jesus did not teach the trinity but was born a Jew under the law required to believe in the monotheist OT monotheist God.
Wrangler
Well-known member
Denial of Definition. Sure Father’s create! Look it up.
civic
Well-known member
Just like the 3 major monotheistic world religions . Christianity ( trinitarianism) , Judaism and Islam.
Like you just said look it up
Dizerner
Well-known member
Absolutely not.
Matter is neither created nor destroyed.
Nothing else creates but the Creator.
