Runningman
Active Member
The Bible explicitly says that the "one God" is the Father repeatedly. It's amazing trinitarians simply don't believe that and yet argue so vigorously over a god the Bible never defines.
Jesus denied being God
- Thread starter Runningman
- Start date
ahem. Name a trinitarian who says there are many gods. It is again silly of you to repeat JOhn 17:3 is isolation while rejecting that Jesus would regain the glory he had with God before his incarnation. You repeat a lie enough times and it still remains a lie in how you abuse John 17:3 and 5.
Peterlag
Active Member
I have noticed intelligent and informed input on the subject of debating the Trinity comes from the unitarian camp. It seems low intelligence, ignorance, and an incapacity for critical thought are prerequisites for membership in trinitarian circles.
civic
Active Member
I don't see the " FATHER " mentioned anywhere in those passages.
nice try- its like your same criteria you have for Christians with the Deity of Christ. This works both ways.
civic
Active Member
This sounds much like what God condemns- Pride comes before a fall. God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. Your claims/statement is not only biased, but uninformed. You are making an emotional argument not one based upon facts.
I could say just the opposite that Academia is filled with Trinitarians in seminaries and higher education with doctorates, not unitarians.
In fact I just fact checked this with AI- its 98%.
hope this helps !!!
amazing grace
Active Member
Have WE not ALL ONE Father? Has not ONE GOD created US? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers? [Malachi 2:10]
Peterlag
Active Member
That's sad.I don't see the " FATHER " mentioned anywhere in those passages.
nice try- its like your same criteria you have for Christians with the Deity of Christ. This works both ways.
Peterlag
Active Member
John 17:5 has been used to prove that Jesus is God because of the phrase...
“that I had with you before the world was.” There is no question that Jesus “existed” before the world began. But did he exist literally as a person or in God’s foreknowledge “in the mind of God”? Both Christ and those called to be in the Body of Christ "the Church" existed in God’s foreknowledge before being alive. Christ was part of the intention of God from the beginning, and he became flesh only when he was conceived. It's Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God. No one tries to prove that we were actually alive with God back when 2 Timothy says that each Christian was given grace “before the world began” (2 Timothy. 1:9). Everyone acknowledges that we were “in the mind of God” i.e., in God’s foreknowledge. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His glory was “with the Father” before the world began, and in John 17:5 he prayed that it would come into manifestation.
“that I had with you before the world was.” There is no question that Jesus “existed” before the world began. But did he exist literally as a person or in God’s foreknowledge “in the mind of God”? Both Christ and those called to be in the Body of Christ "the Church" existed in God’s foreknowledge before being alive. Christ was part of the intention of God from the beginning, and he became flesh only when he was conceived. It's Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God. No one tries to prove that we were actually alive with God back when 2 Timothy says that each Christian was given grace “before the world began” (2 Timothy. 1:9). Everyone acknowledges that we were “in the mind of God” i.e., in God’s foreknowledge. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His glory was “with the Father” before the world began, and in John 17:5 he prayed that it would come into manifestation.
civic
Active Member
Yes it was since you could not prove it was the " FATHER " .
You need to find a text that says what you claim. The exact same standard you gave to Trinitarians. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
never states Jesus was inferior, nor was a created person, but that he agreed while in human flesh upon this Earth to assume the role of the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53
whichdoes NOT preclude Jesus was not also God Himself , as He and the father are One
Thomas worshipped Him, as did Stephen, as did the Elders and Angels
We are NOT arguing for a preexistent Jesus of Nazath, but DO see that he before the Incantation as becoming Jesus was "just" fully God, and indeed was Angel of the Lord, Daniel Son of man, one who spoke to Abraham in the OT
being very God in his nature before the Incarnation is what you are spiritually blinded to as truth
And Jesus is called savior, as he shall save his people from their sins
Runningman
Active Member
Trinitarians saying the trinity is an incomprehensible mystery is the only intelligent thing I have seen them say about the topic. Most of the trinitarians I have talked to in real life admit to not understanding it, not being able to explain it, and having no references to it throughout the entire Bible. We can work with that kind of honesty and humility.
I think most of them want to be honest and non-combative about it and have good intentions, though, and most importantly are willing to listen to sound doctrine about God that can actually be explained with good reason and solid Biblical support, but most of the ones I have seen very militant about it are on message boards. There are literally a handful of the same people on every message board I have seen that will fight over it, lose every Scriptural debate about it, and still keep trucking. Why? Because Scripture, common sense, and logic can't change what someone believes if their heart and mind are not predisposed to truth. The trinity a spiritual prison for some of them.
Peterlag
Active Member
Both God and Jesus are mentioned as Savior. God who saved us and Jesus that accomplished God's plan to get it done.
amazing grace
Active Member
Also:
But now, O LORD, you are our Father;
we are the clay, and you are our potter;
we are all the work of your hand. [Isaiah 64:8]
and another:
For you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us; you, O LORD, are our Father,
our Redeemer from of old is your name. [Isaiah 63:16]
Last edited:
Duhhh. That is sort of an adoptionist view you are speaking again. Is that how unitarians get confused? They create strawmen based on heresies as if that speaks against the scriptural testimony of the deity of Christ. Obviously Jesus starts with preexistence as deity which then allows him to take on humanity. However, the translation used by Peterlag is wrong.
Heb 2:16 (ESV)
For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.
For Christians who read this post, Heb 2:16 makes sense with this explanation
Similar threads
