do you have an argument against Jesus being Messiah or not?
Jesus denied being God
- Thread starter Runningman
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Runningman
Active Member
Nice bait and switch. I have no argument against Jesus being the Messiah nor did I ever suggest otherwise. Do you have an argument against it?
You are using a single verse that says "ruler" or "prince" with an attempt to remove him from being King-- a prophetic role of God's rule.
Do you have issue with him being the King over His Kingdom, over all creation?
amazing grace
Active Member
What we need to remember this week leading up to Resurrection Sunday is what Jesus endured on our behalf to bring about our redemption, to reconcile us to God, his God and our God, his Father and our Father.
A man who endured being spit on, slapped and beaten, mocked and ridiculed to the point where he was unrecognizable as a man, a human being: Behold my servant shall act wisely, he shall be high and lifted up and shall be exalted. As many were astonished at you--- his appearance was so marred beyond human resemblance and his form beyond that of the children of mankind---- Jesus knew this was coming! He had read all the things concerning himself from the Scriptures beginning with Moses and all the prophets.....which is why he prayed so earnestly in Gethsemane: Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me......And being in agony he prayed more earnestly and his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground....... Jesus wasn't a bag of flesh -- Jesus wasn't God..... God did not hang on the cross for your sins ..... a man, like you and me went through this agony.
Could he have backed down at anytime? SURE! He wanted to back down - He wanted there to be another way BUT he submitted to the will of God his Father NEVERTHELESS, NOT my will, but YOURS be done. And his Father, the only true God sent him strength to endure through one of His messengers --- And there appeared to him an angel to strengthen him.
And there was something else I read this morning in Luke 2:26, 29-32 --- And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ.......“Lord, now you are letting your servant depart in peace, according to your word; for my eyes have seen your salvation that you have prepared in the presence of all peoples, a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and for glory to your people Israel.”
which easily echoes Isaiah 52: with what Simeon said in his blessing the child Jesus:
The Lord has bared his holy arm before the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
Jesus - Yahweh's Christ brought about the salvation of God.
Jesus of Nazareth, a man brought about what was necessary for our salvation, our redemption, our righteousness, our sanctification, our justification.......
A man who endured being spit on, slapped and beaten, mocked and ridiculed to the point where he was unrecognizable as a man, a human being: Behold my servant shall act wisely, he shall be high and lifted up and shall be exalted. As many were astonished at you--- his appearance was so marred beyond human resemblance and his form beyond that of the children of mankind---- Jesus knew this was coming! He had read all the things concerning himself from the Scriptures beginning with Moses and all the prophets.....which is why he prayed so earnestly in Gethsemane: Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me......And being in agony he prayed more earnestly and his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground....... Jesus wasn't a bag of flesh -- Jesus wasn't God..... God did not hang on the cross for your sins ..... a man, like you and me went through this agony.
Could he have backed down at anytime? SURE! He wanted to back down - He wanted there to be another way BUT he submitted to the will of God his Father NEVERTHELESS, NOT my will, but YOURS be done. And his Father, the only true God sent him strength to endure through one of His messengers --- And there appeared to him an angel to strengthen him.
And there was something else I read this morning in Luke 2:26, 29-32 --- And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ.......“Lord, now you are letting your servant depart in peace, according to your word; for my eyes have seen your salvation that you have prepared in the presence of all peoples, a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and for glory to your people Israel.”
which easily echoes Isaiah 52: with what Simeon said in his blessing the child Jesus:
The Lord has bared his holy arm before the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
Jesus - Yahweh's Christ brought about the salvation of God.
Jesus of Nazareth, a man brought about what was necessary for our salvation, our redemption, our righteousness, our sanctification, our justification.......
Runningman
Active Member
Jesus isn't the king compared to God. Jesus is the king of the kings of the earth (Revelation 1:5) and isn't the Sovereign Lord and Creator (Acts 4:23-31) so him being prince doesn't undo him as messiah as you seem to be suggesting. God made Jesus the Lord and Messiah. The kind of king Jesus is is a human king over the throne of Jacob (Luke 1:33) but Jesus is never on the throne of God anywhere in the Bible. You misunderstand the context as always.
Runningman
Active Member
So now you confess that Jesus was given a kingdom to rule over with his people?
i indeed have no problem with those prophecies.
Runningman
Active Member
Ah, so if I remembered correctly, last time we talked about Daniel 7, the kingdom the Son of Man received from the Ancient of Days was a jointly owned kingdom to rule over with his saints. You had previously said it had already happened and that prophecy was fulfilled, but now it seems you've come to realize it's a prophecy?
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Ah.... kings....
Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, You know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
Mar 10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
Your perspective is seriously flawed.
God isn't looking to rule others. That isn't the relationship God wants with you. Nor me. Nor any of God's children.
What you want yourself is tainting your perspective.
prophecy is still prophecy. no?
praise_yeshua
Active Member
That is what I thought when I read it.
He like the Arians, Arminians, deny the Aseity of the Son. Which presents a huge problem for himself. There was never a time when the Son was not. The Son is eternal and creator. Runningman would rather dismiss clear Scripture that states Christ is the Alpha and the Omega (Revelation), to save face. He even disagrees with the religious leaders of Jesus' day that Christ was declaring himself to be God, and tried to kill him for it. He has no clue, just another heretic, thinking he knows best.
LoL....that's exactly the reason you do not understand. You are like Jim Jones trying to deceived the weak minded. Paul instructs Christians to grow in knowledge (2 Peter 3:18). You are not even familiar that Trinitarian language goes back to the early church Fathers?
You claim that Jesus is not God in himself; that he is not eternal. But Scripture is explicit that he has no beginning. He always is and will be (Rev 22:13).
Isaiah talks about how he saw the glory of Christ (Isaiah 6:4).
Furthermore Nehemiah 9:6 “You are the Lord, you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
It is you who have no clue and what to make of these passages.
The 3 persons is the one essence and the one essence are the 3 persons.
You claim that Jesus is not God in himself; that he is not eternal. But Scripture is explicit that he has no beginning. He always is and will be (Rev 22:13).
Isaiah talks about how he saw the glory of Christ (Isaiah 6:4).
Furthermore Nehemiah 9:6 “You are the Lord, you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
It is you who have no clue and what to make of these passages.
The 3 persons is the one essence and the one essence are the 3 persons.
amazing grace
Active Member
I'd just like to jump in here and comment if I may.
Aseity (Latin a se): the theological and philosophical concept of being self-derived, self existent, or 'from oneself'. It refers to the absolute independence, self-sufficiency, and uncaused nature of God, who depends on nothing else for existence. It represents the distinction between the creator and creation. Jesus was NOT a se. Jesus was born, he did not self exist. Jesus was dependent on his Father.
Christ did share the titles of Alpha and Omega, beginning and end, first and last with God his Father.
Because they share titles doesn't mean they are one and the same.
Of course, we disagree with the so-called religious leaders of Jesus' day. I believe Jesus said they didn't know God and that is why they could not understand him? That they were of their Father the devil? I believe he also called them hypocrites in Matthew 23?
John 5:43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him.
John 8:19, 40-45 They said to him therefore, “Where is your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.” ...... but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me
John 10:24.25.36 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.........do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
At all times, Jesus confessed to being the Son of God, the Messiah.
No problem, please, by all means join this conversation. Let me clear something up here. You are making the same mistake as Runningman. You are conflating the relational procession of the Son (Distinction from the Father) with the Son's homoousion & Aseity. The key to understanding the Irreducible Tripersonal Essence and Autothean Personhood is:
The 3 Persons is the One Essence & the One Essence are the 3 Persons.
The Son is Autotheos ("God of himself") asserts that the Son (Jesus Christ) possesses divine essence, aseity, and deity inherently in his own right, rather than deriving his deity from the Father. While the Son is personally generated by the Father, his divine nature is underived, ensuring full, co-equal deity.
By you denying the A SE of the Son, then you have a dilemma. You have 2 Gods, not one. BTW, Jesus did declare to be God. Which is why the religious leaders charged him with blasphemy and crucified him for it.
I'll leave you with this.
The 3 Persons is the One Essence & the One Essence are the 3 Persons.
The Son is Autotheos ("God of himself") asserts that the Son (Jesus Christ) possesses divine essence, aseity, and deity inherently in his own right, rather than deriving his deity from the Father. While the Son is personally generated by the Father, his divine nature is underived, ensuring full, co-equal deity.
By you denying the A SE of the Son, then you have a dilemma. You have 2 Gods, not one. BTW, Jesus did declare to be God. Which is why the religious leaders charged him with blasphemy and crucified him for it.
I'll leave you with this.
Before Abraham Was, I Am
48 The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.
Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
amazing grace
Active Member
"God of himself" autotheos? So the Son is derived of himself; from himself?
Scripture doesn't tell of Jesus conception and birth wherein through the Holy Spirit, the power of the Most High, Mary conceived?
All that language you are using is not scriptural but is creedal.
Explain how denying the a se of the Son is 'two gods'.
As I see it the Son being dependent on God his Father does not make two gods at all.
Jesus did not declare to be God. He declared that God was his Father therefore he was the Son of God.
You are taking the I AM statement of Yahweh and applying it to Jesus in the context of John 8.......Yahweh is the Father.
I can't help what the Pharisees and/or the unbelieving Jews did to seek to kill Jesus, a man who had told them the truth that he heard from God but as Jesus said they were of their father, the devil, a murderer from the beginning.......
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Runningman
Active Member
You would have people believe that singular person pronouns like You, He, Him, His, I refer to more than one person? The language of the Bible refutes your claims of a 3 person god being the Creator. The kind of logic you are using is niche, not standard or conventional by any means. The Bible also never states what your conclusions are about a 3 person God, yet it says "You are the Lord, you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens," which is not only what the Bible says, but what I am quoting too.
I think your misunderstandings are that you don't understand what the Word is. John in his prologue referred to the Word, not as a person, but as a thing that Jesus has and revealed in 1 John 1:1-3, not a person he is. It's because you are attempting to understand the entire Bible around John 1:1, which is a bad foundation. Not only did no one repeat what John 1:1 says, but John proved he didn't believe Jesus is God at all in Acts 4:23-31.
Are you going to blame Jim Jones for what the Bible says about how Jesus isn't God?
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