Jesus denied being God

[Runningman]

In the Old Testament, God is explicitly described with titles and concepts later directly applied to Jesus, even if the name “Jesus” is not used. Isaiah 48:12–16 features a speaker who is both the LORD and yet “sent” by the LORD with His Spirit.

Pure speculation. Nothing here is conclusive about referring to Jesus.

Psalm 110:1 records the LORD speaking to “my Lord,” a divine figure enthroned alongside God and later identified by Jesus as referring to himself.

So the LORD spoke to "my Lord" so the LORD didn't speak to the LORD. YHWH didn't speak to YHWH. That's the verse I am quoting. Thanks for handing me a win.

Daniel 7:13–14 presents the “Son of Man” receiving eternal dominion and worship—something reserved for God alone.

No mention of the Son of Man receiving worship here at all and Daniel 7 is a future prophecy, not something that happened yet.

Isaiah 63:9–10 distinguishes the LORD from the “Angel of His Presence” who saves and redeems, a figure understood as the divine mediator later revealed fully as Christ. I can keep going on and on but it is useless in your case because you always run away from Scripture presented to you.

You have provided nothing that clearly shows Jesus pre-existing.

 

[Runningman]

Like I said, you refute the evidence before the discussion starts. You are playing with a stacked deck but you end up being the loser. If Jesus did not speak of existing before Abraham with John likewise showing it, you might start having a true basis for denial.

All of the discussions have already been had. If you have any evidence then put it on the board or move on.

 

[JesusFan]

What I am providing you is Christianity and it pre-dates your "novel, new, gnostic, private interpretation" that was developed in the 4th century at various councils.

"All things were made" - John 1:3
"The Word was made flesh" - John 1:14

If "the Word was made flesh" means Jesus incarnated, then when "all things were made" then everything else was incarnated too. You cannot defend your doctrine with Scripture.

The theology of the Lord Jesus deity was already in place in the NT books penned under inspiration of and by the Holy Spirit way before any Council

 

[JesusFan]

You have misunderstandings about the doctrine of pre-existence that we should be able to resolve quickly when you see other examples.

Was Jesus crucified two times, one time before the world was created, and then another time in Israel? Looking forward to your answer.

Revelation 13
8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

And that same Lamb of God received worship in heaven

 

[JesusFan]

Again, this does nothing at all to demonstrate that Jesus is different than anyone else who was foreknown and yet didn't pre-exist. This demonstrates an inconsistency that you are unable to account for. If others are foreknown and didn't pre-exist, then the same must be true for Jesus. That is why I keep telling you to go directly to the source, but perhaps what will help you better is seeing that you have literally no Scriptural support for your claims.

The version you provided is a forced and possible translation but it is theologically unsound. Trinitarians translated it that way because the correct version proves that Jesus didn't have a literal pre-existence. People aren't pre-destined to go to hell in Scripture so the translation you provided is a non-Christian translation.

This verse below contains no errors or theological issues.

Revelation 13
8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Question, since Jesus was not literally slain from the creation of the world, then it refers to Jesus' death in God's foreknowledge. Not a literal pre-existence.

Acts 2
23He was delivered up by God’s set plan and foreknowledge, and you, by the hands of the lawless, put Him to death by nailing Him to the cross.

again, jesus did NOT eternal exist in His humanity, but before the Incarnation was preexisting eternally with the Father as both were equally Yahweh

 

[JesusFan]

Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos...

The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The word "logos" (Word) denotes (I) "the expression of thought" as embodying a conception or idea. λόγος "logos" is something said (including the thought). So the word "logos" means an expression of thought. It makes perfect sense if we use this understanding everywhere the word "logos" is used. So, in John 1:1 the Word is not Jesus, but rather it became flesh, which is God's expression of thought or plan that became flesh with the coming of Jesus Christ.

That expression of though was always eternal with the ftaher and was Himself very God, who became Jesus in the Incarnation

 

[civic]

Terms found nowhere in Scripture...

• Deity
• Co-equal
• Co-eternal
• Incarnated
• Eternal son
• Infinite son
• God the son
• One substance
• Persons of God
• God became man
• Eternally begotten
• Pre-existent Christ
• God the Holy Spirit
• Pre-incarnate Christ
• Three persons, three in one
• Trinity, Triune God, Tri-unity
• Two nature's, Hypostatic union

Or any combination of 1st person, 2nd person, 3rd person.

No, I don't want to see the word trinity in the Bible...

I want to see the trinity doctrine taught in the Bible and if it's not taught by the Jews and that means the Old Testament Prophets and not the unbelieving Jews you guys always throw in my face. And if it's not taught in the New Testament. Then it's not a biblical concept.

I would like one verse that actually calls Jesus God the Son.

One verse that actually says Jesus is a god-man.
One verse that actually says we must believe Jesus is God.
One verse that actually says we must believe God is three persons.
One verse out of approximately 31,102 Bible verses that says God is Triune.
One verse that actually says Jesus is both 100 percent God and 100 percent man.
One verse that actually says Jesus is God because if it's that important of a doctrine it should have been plainly and clearly taught by someone somewhere.

And I don't read anywhere in the bible where the " Father " says "I Am God" or " I am the only God",

As they say whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[civic]

Terms found nowhere in Scripture...

• Deity
• Co-equal
• Co-eternal
• Incarnated
• Eternal son
• Infinite son
• God the son
• One substance
• Persons of God
• God became man
• Eternally begotten
• Pre-existent Christ
• God the Holy Spirit
• Pre-incarnate Christ
• Three persons, three in one
• Trinity, Triune God, Tri-unity
• Two nature's, Hypostatic union

Or any combination of 1st person, 2nd person, 3rd person.

No, I don't want to see the word trinity in the Bible...

I want to see the trinity doctrine taught in the Bible and if it's not taught by the Jews and that means the Old Testament Prophets and not the unbelieving Jews you guys always throw in my face. And if it's not taught in the New Testament. Then it's not a biblical concept.

I would like one verse that actually calls Jesus God the Son.

One verse that actually says Jesus is a god-man.
One verse that actually says we must believe Jesus is God.
One verse that actually says we must believe God is three persons.
One verse out of approximately 31,102 Bible verses that says God is Triune.
One verse that actually says Jesus is both 100 percent God and 100 percent man.
One verse that actually says Jesus is God because if it's that important of a doctrine it should have been plainly and clearly taught by someone somewhere.

Terms found in Scripture !

Below we find 160 points where we see that Christ has the same nature, qualities, character and attributes of God. No man can have these things said about Him, only God.

Only because Jesus Christ is Almighty God do we have reassurance that He can save His elect from eternal damnation and eternal torment. Thomas Golda

1. Jesus IS the visible image of the Invisible God - Colossians 1:15, II Corinthians 4:4...to see Jesus is to see the Invisible God - Mankind was created IN the image of God - Genesis 1:26...Jesus IS the image of God. To see Jesus is to see the Invisible God in the flesh.

2. Jesus was conceived by God - Luke 1:35, Matthew 1:20. Since Mary was his earthy mother, that makes Jesus fully human..since God was His physical Father, since Jesus did not have an earthy father, that makes Jesus fully God. He was fully man and fully God. The Great Godman.

3. To see Jesus' face is to see the glory of God - II Corinthians 4:6

4. Jesus "being in the form of God" makes Him God - Philippians 2:6

5. Jesus being the brightness of the Father's glory - Hebrews 1:3

6. Jesus is the exact image of the Father's Person - Hebrews 1:3

7. That is why to "see Jesus" is to "see the Father" - John 14:9, John 12:45

8. That is why Jesus said He and His Father are one - John 10:30

9. Jesus is IN the bosom of the Father - John 1:18. Not "on" the bosom"..not "near" the bosom...IN the bosom...He is in the center of the Father. They are "one"
10. He is called EVERLASTING Father - Isaiah 9:6

11. Jesus deserves the SAME honour as the Father - John 5:23

12.Jesus was WORSHIPPED - Matthew 2:11, Matthew 9:12, Matthew 14:33, Matthew 28:9, Luke 24:52..Since only God is to be worshipped - Matthew 4:10..that means Jesus is God.

13. Even angels WORSHIP Jesus - Hebrews 1:6

14. Heaven falls down before the Lamb - Revelation 5:8

15. Jesus Created ALL things - Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:2, John 1:3, Ephesians 3:9 ....God created all things - Acts 14:15, Isaiah 45:18, Isaiah 44:24, Isaiah 42:5. Jesus is God

16. Jesus also made the world - John 1:10. Jesus is God - Isaiah 44:18

17. Jesus created all things for HIMSELF - Colossians 1:16, Proverbs 16:4(Jesus is God)

18. By Jesus all things consist - Colossians 1:17

19. Jesus upholds all things - Hebrews 1:3

20. Jesus is before all things - Colossians 1:17

21. Jesus rules heaven and earth - Matthew 28:18. Jesus is God - II Chronicles 29:11

22. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath - Mark 2:28, Luke 6:5

23. Jesus called Himself the Great "I AM" - John 8:58, John 8:24...a quote from Exodus 3:14

24. In the body of Jesus dwells the fullness of the Godhead - Colossians 2:9

25. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are THREE and they are ONE - I John 5:7

26. And this is all why Jesus is EQUAL WITH GOD - Philippians 2:6

27. Jesus was "God manifest in the flesh" - I Timothy 3:16

28. God was in Christ - Galatians 3:17, II Corinthians 5:19

29. Jesus is the Power of God and the Wisdom of God - I Corinthians 1:24

30. Jesus "only" hath immortality - I Timothy 6:16

31. Jesus is Lord of the living and the dead - Romans 14:9

32. Jesus is called the Saviour - Luke 2:11, Titus 1:4, Titus 2:13, Titus 3:3, II Peter 1:1, II Peter 1:11, II Peter 2:20, II Peter 3:18, I John 4:14

33. Only Jehovah God alone is the Saviour - Isaiah 43:11, Isaiah 45:15 , Hosea 13:4, I Timothy 2:2, Jude 1:25...that means Jesus is God.

34. Jesus ALONE is the Great Judge - John 5:22. The Judge is God - Hebrews 12:23, Revelation 18:8, Hebrews 13:4, Romans 2:3, 5 - Jesus is God. All the verses in the Bible that talk about God being the Judge refer to Jesus, since He alone judges. The Father
judges no man - John 5:22.

35. Jesus has the keys of hell and of death - Revelation 1:18. The one that can cast into hell is to be FEARED - Matthew 10:28, Luke 12:5 Only God is to be feared - Rev 14:7

36. Jesus is from EVERLASTING - Micah 5:2, Isaiah 9:6

37. Jesus has NO BEGINNING of days - Hebrews 7:3

38. Jesus is the SAME, yesterday, today and forever - Hebrews 13:8. A quote from Psalm 102:27. Jesus is God.

39. Jesus' is in the midst or the center of the throne of God - Rev 1:6

40. Jesus has the Greatest Name above every name ever named - Philippians 2:9

41. Jesus' name is the Greatest in the world to come as well - Ephesians 1:21

42. And it is before name of JESUS, not any other name including Jehovah, that the peoples of the earth and heaven and bowing before - Philippians 2:10. Jesus is God - Isaiah 45:22-23

43. Only by the name JESUS can one be saved - Acts 4:10-12

44. Jesus is called the Alpha and Omega - Revelation 1:11

45. Jesus who is the Alpha and Omega is the ALMIGHTY - Revelation 1:7-8

46. Jesus is called the King of kings - I Timothy 6:15. Jesus is the King - Zechariah 9:9. The King is God - I Timothy 1:17. Jesus is God

47. Jesus is called Lord of lords - I Timothy 6:15. God is called Lord of lords - Deut 10:17. Jesus is God

48. Christ is called the ROCK - I Corinthians 10:4. That is who Israel followed. The ROCK who Israel followed was GOD - Deut 32:3-4. - God is the Rock - Psalm 18:2 and only God is the Rock - Psalm 18:31. Christ is God.

49. Jesus calls Himself the FIRST AND THE LAST - Revelation 1:11, 17. Only GOD is the FIRST AND THE LAST - Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 48:12. Jesus is God.

50. Jesus knows all things (OMNIPOTENT) - John 2:24-25, John 4:29, John 6:64, John 16:30

51. Jesus is OMNIPRESENT - Matthew 18:20, Matthew 28:20

52. Jesus' body fills all (is omnipresent) - Ephesians 1:23

53. Jesus knows the hearts of men - Revelation 2:23

54. Jesus dwells in the hearts - Ephesians 3:17

55. And "liveth" in the believers - Galatians 2:20

56. Jesus knows the thoughts of men - Matthew 9:4, Luke 6:8

57. And Jesus will judge the "secrets" of men - Romans 2:16

58. God shed His blood - Acts 20:28

59. The cross is the "power of God" - I Corinthians 1:17-18

60. Jesus called the Kingdom of God His Kingdom - John 18:36

61. Jesus is the "Deliverer" of the believers from the wrath of God - I Thessalonians 1:10, Romans 11:26. Only God is the Deliverer from the wrath of God - II Corinthians 1:9-10

62. In Jesus' name we TRUST - Ephesians 1:12-13, Matthew 12:21, Philippians 2:19. Only in God do we trust - Psalm 4:5, 7:1, 31:1, 73:28, Isaiah 26:4. Jesus is God.

63. Jesus is the TRUTH - John 14:6. Jesus is God - Psalm 31:5

64. Jesus sent the prophets - Matthew 23:34...God sent the prophets - Jeremiah 7:25. Jesus is God who sent the prophets.

65. Jesus is the Stone of stumbling - I Peter 2:8. A prophesy from Isaiah 8:13-14. God is the stone of stumbling. Jesus is God.

66. God is the fountain of living waters - Jeremiah 17:13....Jesus is the fountain of living waters - John 4:10-14

67. Jesus brings reward to the wicked for their works - Matthew 16:27. Jesus is God - Psalm 54:4-5, II Samuel 3:39.

68. The reward of salvation is "with Jesus" - Revelation 22:12. Jesus is God - Isaiah 62:11, Isaiah 40:10

69. Jesus gave power to His people - Luke 9:1. Jesus is God - Psalm 68:35

70. Jesus is called the HOLY ONE - Acts 3:14. Jesus is God - Isaiah 30:15, Isaiah 40:25, Isaiah 41:14, Isaiah 43:15

71. Jesus is the light - John 8:12. Jesus is God - Psalm 27:1

72. Jesus is the Husband of believers - Revelation 19:7, 9, 21:2, 21:9. Jesus is God - Isaiah 54:5

73. Jesus gives us rest - Matthew 11:28. Jesus is God - Exodus 33:14

74. Jesus gathers the sheep - John 10:16. Jesus is God - Ezekiel 34:11

75. Jesus seeks and saves that which is lost - Luke 19:10. Jesus is God - Ezekiel 34:16
76. Jesus is the Shepherd - John 10:11, 14. Jesus is God - Psalm 23:1

77. Jesus feeds the people and causes them to sit down - Mark 8:5-10, Matthew 14:19-21. Jesus is God - Ezekiel 34:15

78. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin - I John 1:7. God cleanses from sin - Psalm 51:2, Ezekiel 36:25.. Jesus is God

79. Redemption is from Jesus Christ - Romans 3:24, Colossians 1:14. Redemption is from God - Psalm 130:7. Jesus is God

80. Christ is the Redeemer - Galatians 4:5, Galatians 3:13, Revelation 5:9, Titus 2:14. God is the Redeemer - Jeremiah 31:11, Isaiah 41:14, Isaiah 44:22, Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 44:24. Jesus is God

81. Jesus wrote new commandments with His finger - John 8:5-9. This is to show that He is God who wrote the 10 commandments with His finger - Exodus 31:18

82. The Bible declares God. That God is Jesus who is written in all the scriptures - Luke 24:27, Luke 24:44, John 5:39, John 5:46

83. ALL things are by Jesus - I Corinthians 8:6

84. John the Baptist, the voice in the wilderness prepared the coming of the Lord - Matthew 3:3. A quote from Isaiah 40:3...He prepared the coming of Jehovah God!!!!

85. Jesus forgave sin - Matthew 9:2, Mark 2:5....and only GOD can forgive sins - Mark 2:7. Only God can forgive sin where they are atoned for it. Jesus is God.

86. Jesus forgave sins and healed diseases - Matthew 9:6. Only God can do that - Psalm 103:3

87. Jesus calmed the storm - Matthew 8:26...Only God can - Psalm 107:25

88. God was pierced - Zechariah 12:10...quoted again in John 19:37. Jesus is God

89. God was priced at 30 pieces of silver - Zechariah 11:12-13...quoted again in Matthew 27:9....Jesus is God.

90. Jesus returns again with His saints - I Thess. 3:13. A fulfillment of Zechariah 14:5 that says GOD will come with His saints. Jesus is God.

91. The Jews wanted Jesus killed for the crime of Blasphemy - Matthew 26:65. In their minds He claimed to be God - John 10:33, and Equal with God - John 5:18 and forgave as only God can do - Mark 2:7, Luke 5:21...that was blasphemy is their eyes - Mark 2:7,
Luke 5:21. Jesus by His words and actions claimed to be God...and that is why He was found guilty by the Jews of blasphemy.

92. Jesus raised Himself from the dead - John 2:19-21. John 10:17-18

93. Jesus will raise all the dead - John 6:39-40, 44. God raises the dead both physically and spiritually - Ezekiel 37:12-14. Jesus is God

94. The Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are one and the same. Christ is God - Romans 8:9

95. Jesus quickens (which means to make alive) - John 5:21. Only God can make someone alive - Ezekiel 37:5-6, 9. Only God can quicken - Psalm 80:18. Jesus is God.

96. One cannot serve God and mammon - Matthew 6:24. Only God is to be served - Romans 1:9. The One we serve is Jesus Christ - Colossians 3:24.

97. Jesus is the one who "justifies" - Galatians 2:17. ONLY GOD can justifieth - Romans 8:33. Jesus is God.

98. Jesus "reveals" truth - Luke 10:22, Matthew 11:27. Only GOD can reveal truth - Philippians 3:15, I Corinthians 2:10. Jesus is God.

99. God will not share His glory with another - Isaiah 42:8, 48:11. But the Father glorifies the Son - John 17:1, 5, John 12:23, John 13:31-32. Jesus is God and He is ONE with the Father.

100. ONLY in the name of JESUS is their salvation. There is salvation is NONE OTHER - Acts 4:10-12, II Timothy 2:10. And salvation belongs to GOD - Psalm 3:8, Jonah 2:9, Lamentations 3:26, Isaiah 52:10, Psalm 51:14. Since only in the name of Jesus is there
salvation and salvation belongs to God, that simply means Jesus is God.

101. Jesus chooses the elect - John 15:16. Jesus is God - I Thess. 2:13, I Cor. 1:27

102. Men are Jesus' disciples - John 13:35, John 15:8. Jesus is God - Isaiah 8:16

103. Jesus' voice is the sound of many waters - Revelation 1:15. Jesus is Almighty God - Ezekiel 43:2.

104. Jesus' feet are like fine brass - Revelation 1:15. Jesus is God - Ezekiel 1:7, Ezekiel 1:28

105. Jesus' name is the Word of God - Revelation 19:13

106. All grace comes from God - I Peter 5:10. Jesus is that God where all grace comes from - Rev 22:21, Romans 16:20, I Thess. 5:28, II Thess. 3:18

107. Jesus comes with clouds - Rev 1:7, Matthew 24:30 - Jesus is God - Isaiah 19:1, Jeremiah 4:13, Numbers 11:25

108. Jesus is called God - John 1:1, Hebrews 1:8

109. Jesus is called The Great God - Titus 2:13

110. Jesus is called The Mighty God - Isaiah 9:6

111. Jesus is called The True God - I John 5:20

112. Jesus is "God with us" - Matthew 1:21

113. Jesus is called "My God" - John 20:28. Since there is "no other God" - Isaiah 45:5, 21-22..that means Jesus is that God.

114. Jesus is called "our hope" - I Timothy 1:1. We hope in Jesus - I Cor. 15:19. We are to only hope in God - I Peter 1:21, Psalm 38:15. Jesus is God.

115. Christ is our life - Colossians 3:4. Jesus is God - Psalm 42:8

116. Jesus is called Faithful - Revelation 19:11. Jesus is God - Deut 7:9

117. Jesus is called True - Revelation 19:11. Jesus is God - Romans 3:4

118. Israel temped Christ - I Corinthians 10:9. Jesus is God - Deut 6:16, Numbers 14:22.

119. Christ sent serpents and destroyed Israel - I Cor 10:9. Jesus is God - Numbers 21:6-7

120. Jesus rebukes and chastens - Revelation 3:19 - Jesus is God - Hebrews 12:5-7, Proverbs 3:11-12.

121. Jesus is the Author and Finisher of faith - Hebrews 12:2

122. God said "Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness" - Genesis 1:26. The plurality refers to the Trinity. This is not talking about the angels or heavenly host. Angels cannot create life. Secondly, nowhere is it indicated that angels are made in the image of
God. Third, there is no indication that mankind is created in the image of angels.

123. The plurality of the Trinity is also referred to in Genesis 3:22 and Isaiah 6:8. Jesus is God.

124. Before Jesus became man, He had glory with the Father before the world was - John 17:5

125. All things are given into Jesus' hand - John 3:35

126. Jesus is described as "WHICH WAS" dead, and "IS" alive - Revelation 2:8. The one who "which was" and "which is" is Almighty God - Revelation 4:8, Revelation 1:8. Jesus is God.

127. The "Great Day" of the Wrath of the Lamb - Revelation 6:16-17 is the "Great Day" of God Almighty - Revelation 16:14. Jesus is the Lamb who is God Almighty.

128. Jesus is the King - I Timothy 6:15, John 18:37. Jesus is the King who is called the "only wise God" - I Timothy 1:17

129. Jesus is called the "Just One" - Acts 22:14. Jesus is God - Isaiah 45:21

130. Jesus "gives" repentance - Acts 5:31, Acts 3:26. Jesus is God - II Timothy 2:25

131. Jesus reconciled all things to Himself - Colossians 1:20. Jesus is God - Romans 5:18-19

132. Jesus brings Judgment on the churches in Revelation 2 and 3. Jesus is God - Hebrews 10:30, Deuteronomy 32:35-36

133. God has a Father - Revelation 1:6. That God is Jesus Christ.

134. Jesus stilled the waves and rules the sea- Matthew 8:26-27, Mark 4:39-41. Jesus is God - Psalm 89:8-9

135. Jesus has eyes that are sent forth into all the earth - Revelation 5:6 - Jesus is God - II Chronicles 16:9

136. To know the love of Christ is to be filled with the fulness of God - Ephesians 3:19

137. Christ strengthens the believers - Philippians 4:13. Christ is God - Isaiah 40:29, Isaiah 41:10

138. In Christ's presence is fullness of joy - John 15:11. Jesus is God - Psalm 16:11

139. To see Jesus is to see the Father and to hate Jesus is to hate the Father as well - John 15:24, John 15:23

140. Jesus turns the water into wine - John 2:7-11. A creative act to show that Jesus is Creator God.

141. Jesus walks on water - John 6:19, Matthew 14:26, Mark 6:48 - Jesus is God - Psalm 93:4, Psalm 95:5, Psalm 72:8, Job 9:8

142. Jesus causes the blind to see - Matthew 9:27-30, Matthew 11:5, Mark 8:22-26, Mark 10:51-52. Jesus is God - Psalm 146:8, Isaiah 35:4-5

143. Jesus causes the deaf to hear - Matthew 11:5, Mark 7:32, Mark 7:37 - Jesus is God - Isaiah 35:4-5, Isaiah 43:7-8

144. Jesus causes the dumb to speak - Matthew 9:32-33, Matt 15:31, Mark 7:37, Luke 11:14. Jesus is God - Isaiah 36:6, Ezekiel 24:27, Ezekiel 33:22

145. Jesus causes the lame to walk - Matthew 11:5, Mark 2:11, Luke 7:22 - Jesus is God - Isaiah 35:6

146. Jesus' face shines as the sun - Matthew 17:2. Jesus is God - Psalm 84:11, Malachi 4:2

147. Jesus will inherit all nations - Psalm 2:7-8. Jesus is God - Psalm 82:8

148. Jesus will rule all nations with a rod of iron - Revelation 12:5. Jesus is God - Isaiah 14:5-6

149. Jesus will smite all nations with a rod or iron. He is the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God - Revelation 19:15. He is Almighty God who brings wrath.

150. Jesus and His Father established the ends of the earth - Proverbs 30:4

151. Jesus was without sin - II Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 4:15, I Peter 2:22. Only God is without sin - Deuteronomy 32:4. Jesus is God

152. Jesus is ABOVE ALL - John 3:31

153. Jesus is GOD OVER ALL - Romans 9:5

154. Jesus is LORD OF ALL - Acts 10:36

155. The Lord God sent His angel to John - Rev 22:6. It is Jesus that sent His angel - Rev 22:16. Jesus is the Lord God.

156. Jesus is called the "Lord of Glory" - I Corinthians 2:8. Jesus is YHWH God - Psalm 24:8-10

157. Jesus gets glory now and forever - II Peter 3:18

158. The Father calls Jesus "LORD" who made heaven and earth - Hebrews 1:10

159. Heaven is God's throne and earth His FOOTSTOOL - Isaiah 66:1, Matthew 5:34-35. Jesus is God - Matthew 22:44, Hebrews 1:13

160. Every knee shall bow, and "every tongue" shall confess to GOD - Romans 14:11. The God "every tongue" is confessing to is JESUS CHRIST - Philippians 2:11

hope this helps !!!

 

[Runningman]

The theology of the Lord Jesus deity was already in place in the NT books penned under inspiration of and by the Holy Spirit way before any Council

No it's not in the Bible anywhere. It explicitly states the Father is alone the true God. (John 17:1-3)

 

[Runningman]

And that same Lamb of God received worship in heaven

No the Lamb did not receive worship in heaven. See Revelation 5:7-13.

 

[Runningman]

again, jesus did NOT eternal exist in His humanity, but before the Incarnation was preexisting eternally with the Father as both were equally Yahweh

Jesus did not eternally exist as God or a being either. Scripture states the Son is inferior to God.

 

[mikesw]

All of the discussions have already been had. If you have any evidence then put it on the board or move on.

you are trying to provide a novel, new, gnostic, private interpretation with possible intent to persuade people to your interpretation. I assume you would try to form a sufficient argument rather than denying the obvious preexistent One who became incarnate as Christ.
The problem with the discussions done before is you never overcame the testimony of the deity of Christ but you still boast your false victories.

 

[Runningman]

you are trying to provide a novel, new, gnostic, private interpretation with possible intent to persuade people to your interpretation. I assume you would try to form a sufficient argument rather than denying the obvious preexistent One who became incarnate as Christ.
The problem with the discussions done before is you never overcame the testimony of the deity of Christ but you still boast your false victories.

Let's see. We already went over your angel of the Lord argument and you failed to demonstrate that the angel is Jesus. We went over Daniel 7 and you failed to prove that the Son of Man in this chapter is not a future prophecy, actually I proved it's future. We went over the "Word of the Lord" arguments that appear in verses the Old Testament and nothing about it says that it's a pre-existent pre-incarnate Jesus nor shows that it is a distinct person who is God. We went over Abraham's three visitors and you couldn't prove any of them are Jesus. We went over Jacob wrestling with an angel, a rock following the Israelites, etc. Nothing there states that that is a pre-existent Jesus. You have ran out talking points.

 

[mikesw]

Let's see. We already went over your angel of the Lord argument and you failed to demonstrate that the angel is Jesus. We went over Daniel 7 and you failed to prove that the Son of Man in this chapter is not a future prophecy, actually I proved it's future. We went over the "Word of the Lord" arguments that appear in verses the Old Testament and nothing about it says that it's a pre-existent pre-incarnate Jesus nor shows that it is a distinct person who is God. We went over Abraham's three visitors and you couldn't prove any of them are Jesus. We went over Jacob wrestling with an angel, a rock following the Israelites, etc. Nothing there states that that is a pre-existent Jesus. You have ran out talking points.

You have not proved anything to prove these are not christophanies. You simply use the act of denial, denial, denial. We already know John 1 shows the preexistence. Jesus also spoke about being preexisting before Abraham. John the Baptist mentions that too. The only action left is to consider whether these OT christophanies have blatant reasons to be denied against the testimony of the OT.
You are the one who has to prove that the traditional knowledge of Christ is wrong over against the novel, new, gnostic, private interpretations you have given. As to the rock concept, you have to prove too many related passages to be wrong.

The reminder is that you selected a topic of Christophanies for which you predetermined there could be no acceptable answer unless the name of Jesus appeared with this and that people saw the body and called that person with the name Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

You have not proved anything to prove these are not christophanies. You simply use the act of denial, denial, denial. We already know John 1 shows the preexistence. Jesus also spoke about being preexisting before Abraham. John the Baptist mentions that too. The only action left is to consider whether these OT christophanies have blatant reasons to be denied against the testimony of the OT.
You are the one who has to prove that the traditional knowledge of Christ is wrong over against the novel, new, gnostic, private interpretations you have given. As to the rock concept, you have to prove too many related passages to be wrong.

The reminder is that you selected a topic of Christophanies for which you predetermined there could be no acceptable answer unless the name of Jesus appeared with this and that people saw the body and called that person with the name Jesus.

Alleged christophanies are not provable. Your arguments are essentially "that's the pre-existent Jesus because I said so" which isn't a valid argument. No one said that Jesus pre-existed as an angel. No one said Jesus pre-existed at all. Your pre-existence doctrine is not supported by Scripture. I also believe you have already been shown that your argument about Jesus being foreknown doesn't mean pre-existence since others were foreknown by God as well. I really would not want to be in your shoes. You're going to be on the defense for as long as you are on this board and I have no intention of releasing you anytime soon.

 

[Peterlag]

And I don't read anywhere in the bible where the " Father " says "I Am God" or " I am the only God",

As they say whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

Isaiah 44:6,8
I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 45:21-22
there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
for I am God, and there is none else.

Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me:

 

[Runningman]

Isaiah 44:6,8
I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 45:21-22
there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
for I am God, and there is none else.

Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me:

I have a feeling @civic doesn't believe YHWH is the Father despite the Bible explicitly saying He is.

Malachi 1:6
“‘A son honors his father,
And a servant his master.
If then I am the Father,
Where is My honor?’
Says YHWH of hosts…”

 

[Peterlag]

I have a feeling @civic doesn't believe YHWH is the Father despite the Bible explicitly saying He is.

Malachi 1:6
“‘A son honors his father,
And a servant his master.
If then I am the Father,
Where is My honor?’
Says YHWH of hosts…”

 

[mikesw]

Alleged christophanies are not provable. Your arguments are essentially "that's the pre-existent Jesus because I said so" which isn't a valid argument. No one said that Jesus pre-existed as an angel. No one said Jesus pre-existed at all. Your pre-existence doctrine is not supported by Scripture.

That is so stupid. We see verses of the preexistence that Jesus mentions. Now share the next false statement you wish to make.

I also believe you have already been shown that your argument about Jesus being foreknown doesn't mean pre-existence since others were foreknown by God as well.

Stop making such statements that are just you glossing over the evidence.

I really would not want to be in your shoes. You're going to be on the defense for as long as you are on this board and I have no intention of releasing you anytime soon.

I am not not on the defensive. I'm showing the errors of your novel, new, gnostic, personal interpretation. Nor do you have some hold as if your innovative doctrine has any relevance.

 

[mikesw]

View attachment 2856

No trinitarian I know of says that there are multiple Gods. So the first point is truly useless.

For point 2 I am sure that there are many others that are pretty close to that phrase. The one exposing the lies of the unitarian quite strongly is Gal 3:19-20. It's explanation shows that Jesus is part of that oneness since there can be no mediator between God and Jesus. The reason is that God is One. If Jesus were not of the Godhead, then the 2 verses would not make sense.

You do not need the scriptures to have "God is 3 in 1" when the deity of Christ is evident enough to reject the unitarian belief system.

On point 4, unitarians may speak of Jesus as the Son of God but they deny that Jesus is the Son of God and consequently has the same "substance" as the Father.

Something is wrong. The unitarians distort the truth and still try to convince others against the deity of Jesus. It takes too much faith in man to accept the unitarian beliefs.