Jesus denied being God

[Runningman]

He is firstborn by virtue of the resurrection. All Christians follow after that. We saw both Christ's divinity and his Fatherhood of all creation that came about by his resurrection.

Paul stated that he resurrection fulfilled the prophecy that clearly states “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father." He actually said that. I know that is problematic to accept what Paul said because, if literal, it directly means Jesus wasn't always the Son of God in every since of the word until the fulfillment of a prophecy.

Christ Jesus is recognized as the Last Adam through whom all creation is made anew. Although he is God within man who is raised. We are also with God's Spirit and will be resurrected. But these nuances are beyond your detection. We can help you understand the details anyhow.

Wow I just don't know where you are getting all of this from. The Bible says God worked through Jesus, not that Jesus is God within a man who was working through Jesus.

Acts 10
37You yourselves know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee with the baptism that John proclaimed: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.

 

[Runningman]

Since Christ existed before creation and all things were created for him, why do you think that would suddenly stop at some point? We know John 1 is beyond your comprehension. Just trust those who understand these nuances.

Jesus isn't called eternal in Scripture, but you believe he pre-existed being a human. Therefore you can't prove Jesus is eternal.

 

[mikesw]

Paul stated that he resurrection fulfilled the prophecy that clearly states “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father." He actually said that. I know that is problematic to accept what Paul said because, if literal, it directly means Jesus wasn't always the Son of God in every since of the word until the fulfillment of a prophecy.

Wow I just don't know where you are getting all of this from. The Bible says God worked through Jesus, not that Jesus is God within a man who was working through Jesus.

Acts 10
37You yourselves know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee with the baptism that John proclaimed: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.

Hopefully you will catch up to what scripture conveys. I share what is in scripture, but you have to be able to connect the nuances. It is true that the Trinitarian doctrine also says that Jesus is not God within a man. The best we express the scriptures is that Jesus is 100% man and %100 God. The scriptures you try to focus on are the humanity part. You seem unable to get beyond the few humanity verses in order to pay attention to Christ as part of the Godhead. At the same time, I have to try to guess your religious affiliation.

 

[mikesw]

Jesus isn't called eternal in Scripture, but you believe he pre-existed being a human. Therefore you can't prove Jesus is eternal.

Scripture shows Jesus existing before Abraham. John 1 shows Jesus being God. I can only go by the testimony of scripture. Maybe you have some other source your get your bias from. All that is apparent is that you are trying to argue for doctrines that have been identified as heretical while also being unable to explain away the passages of Christ's divinity. You really will have to come up with some grand arguments to deny Christ's divinity. Why do you even think you have some insight beyond what is common understanding of the Godhead? If you think you have some greater intellect to argue for the mere humanity of Jesus, it sure is not showing up within your discussion here. That is why you have to be careful in what you are proposing.

 

[TomL]

@TomL don't evade and dodge his question. You need to address this directly. Where is Jesus called eternal in Scripture.

Hello

1 John 1:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

Was that supposed to be a serious challenge

 

[TomL]

In Revelation 3:14, Jesus is referred to as the beginning of the creation of God. I didn't write it. Apostle John stated that Jesus not only has a beginning, but also implied that Jesus is in the same category or the creation of God which would mean Jesus is created and not God.

I would also add that most versions word Revelation 3:14 as such and arché is translated most commonly as beginning in regards to the temporal sense throughout the New Testament. I believe you are also at the disadvantage with your alternative, fringe, interpretation of Revelation 3:14.

HELPS Word-studies
746 arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent").

Did you just ignore what I posted

The word beginning can mean the origin or the ruler

Revelation 3:14 (NASB 2020) — 14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Origin of the creation of God, says this:

Revelation 3:14 (NIV) — 14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.

Christ created all things and nothing was made which was made without him

John 1:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

And the word was there in the beginning of creation

John 1:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

creating all things

Colossians 1:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

add a real lexicon



ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ (Hom.+; inscr., pap., LXX, Philo, Joseph.).
1. beginning—a. concrete, pl. corners of a sheet Ac 10:11; 11:5 (cf. Hdt. 4, 60; Diod. S. 1, 35, 10).
b. beginning (opp. τέλος; cf. Diod. S. 16, 1, 1 ἀπʼ ἀρχῆς μεχρὶ τοῦ τέλους; Ael. Aristid. 30, 24 K.=10 p. 123 D.: ἐξ ἀ. εἰς τέλος; Appian, Bell. Civ. 5, 9, §36; Wsd 7:18) B 1:6; IEph 14:1; IMg 13:1; IRo 1:2, cf. 1. τὰ στοιχεῖα τῆς ἀ. elementary principles Hb 5:12. ὁ τῆς ἀ. τοῦ Χ. λόγος elementary Christian teaching 6:1. W. gen. foll. ἡμέρας ὀγδόης B 15:8; ἡμερῶν (2 Km 14:26) Hb 7:3; τῶν σημείων first of the signs J 2:11 (cf. Isocr., Paneg. 10:38 Blass ἀλλʼ ἀρχὴν μὲν ταύτην ἐποιήσατο τ. εὐεργεσιῶν, τροφὴν τοῖς δεομένοις εὑρεῖν; Pr 8:22; Jos., Ant. 8, 229ἀ. κακῶν); ὠδίνων Mt 24:8; Mk 13:8; κακῶν ISm 7:2. As the beginning of a book (Ion of Chios [V BC] no. 392 fgm. 24 Jac. ἀρχὴ τοῦ λόγου; Polystrat. p. 28; Diod. S. 17, 1, 1 ἡ βύβλος τὴν ἀ. ἔσχε ἀπό. . . ; Ael. Aristid. 23, 2 K.=42 p. 768 D.: ἐπʼ ἀρχῇ τοῦ συγγράμματος; Diog. L. 3, 37 ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς Πολιτείας; cf. Sb 7696, 53; 58 [250 AD]) ἀ. τοῦ εὐαγγελίου Ἰ. Χ. beginning of the gospel of J. C. Mk 1:1 (cf. Hos 1:2 ἀ. λόγου κυρίου πρὸς Ὡσηέ); cf. RHarris, Exp. ’19, 113-19; ’20, 142-50; 334-50; FEDaubanton, NThSt 2, ’19, 168-70; AvanVeldhuizen, ibid., 171-5; EEidem, Ingressen til Mkevangeliet: FBuhl-Festschr.’25, 35-49; NFFreese, StKr 104, ’32, 429-38; AWikgren, JBL 61, ’42, 11-20 [ἀρχή=summary]; LEKeck, NTS 12, ’65/’66, 352-70). ἀ. τῆς ὑποστάσεως original conviction Hb 3:14. ἀρχὴν ἔχειν w. gen. of the inf. begin to be someth. IEph 3:1. ἀρχὴν λαμβάνειν begin (Polyb.; Aelian, V.H. 2, 28; 12, 53; Diog. L., Prooem. 3, 4; Sext. Emp., Phys. 1, 366; Philo, Mos. 1, 81) λαλεῖσθαι be proclaimed at first Hb 2:3, cf. IEph 19:3.—W. prep. ἀπʼ ἀρχῆς from the beginning (Paus. 3, 18, 2; Dit., Syll.3 741, 20; UPZ 160, 15 [119 BC]; BGU 1141, 44; Jos., Ant. 8, 350; 9, 30) J 15:27; 1J 2:7, 24; 3:11; 2J 5f; Ac 26:4; MPol 17:1; Hs 9, 11, 9; Dg 12:3. οἱ ἀπʼ ἀ. αὐτόπται those who fr. the beginning were eyewitnesses Lk 1:2. Also ἐξ ἀρχῆς (Dit., Syll.3 547, 9; 634, 4; PGenève 7, 8; BGU 1118, 21; Jos., Bell. 7, 358) J 6:64; 16:4; 1 Cl 19:2; Pol 7:2; Dg 2:1. πάλιν ἐξ ἀ. (Ael. Aristid. 21, 10 K.=22 p. 443 D.; Dit., Syll.3 972, 174) again fr. the beginning B 16:8. ἐν ἀρχῇ (Diod. S. 19, 110, 5; Palaeph. p. 2, 3; Dit., Or. 56, 57; PPetr. II 37, 2b verso 4; POxy. 1151, 15; BGU 954, 26) at the beginning, at first Ac 11:15. ἐν ἀ. τοῦ εὐαγγελίου when the gospel was first preached Phil 4:15; sim., word for word, w. ref. to beg. of 1 Cor, 1 Cl 47:2.—τὴν ἀ. J 8:25, as nearly all the Gk. fathers understood it, is used adverbially=ὅλως at all (Plut., Mor. 115B; Dio Chrys. 10[11], 12; 14[31], 5; 133; Lucian, Eunuch. 6 al.; Ps.-Lucian, Salt. 3; POxy. 472, 17 [c. 130 AD]; Philo, Spec. Leg. 3, 121; Jos., Ant. 1, 100; 15, 235 al.; as a rule in neg. clauses, but the negation can inhere in the sense; 48th letter of Apollonius of Tyana [Philostrat. I 356, 17]; Philo, Abrah. 116, Decal. 89; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 6, 11; cf. Field, Notes, 93f) τὴν ἀ. ὅτι καὶ λαλῶ ὑμῖν (how is it) that I even speak to you at all? Another possible mng. is, To begin with, why do I as much as speak to you! P66 reads εἶπον ὑμῖν before τ. ἀρχήν, yielding the sense I told you at the beginning what I am also telling you now (RWFunk, HTR 51, ’58, 95-100).
c. beginning, origin in the abs. sense ἀ. πάντων χαλεπῶν Pol 4:1 (cf. 1 Ti 6:10, which has ῥίζα for ἀ., and s. passages like Ps 110:10; Sir 10:13); ἀ. κόσμου B 15:8; ἀ. πάντων PK 2, p. 13, 21; ἀπʼ ἀρχῆς fr. the very beginning (Is 43:13; Wsd 9:8; 12:11; Sir 24:9 al.) Mt 19:4, 8; J 8:44; 1J 1:1 (of the histor. beg. of Christianity: HHWendt, D. Johannesbriefe u. d. joh. Christent. ’25, 31f; HWindisch, Hdb. ad loc.; differently, HConzelmann, RBultmann-Festschr., ’54, 194-201); 3:8; 2 Th 2:13 v.l.; ὁ ἀπʼ ἀ. 1J 2:13f; Dg 11:4; οἱ ἀπʼ ἀ. the first men l2:3; τὰ ἀπʼ ἀ. γενόμενα 1 C1 31:1; ἀπʼ ἀ. κτίσεως Mk 10:6; 13:19; 2 Pt 3:4 (on ἀ. κτίσεως cf. En. 15, 9); ἀπʼ ἀ. κόσμου Mt 24:21. Also ἐξ ἀ. (X., Mem. 1, 4, 5; Ael. Aristid. 43, 9 K.=1 p. 3 D. [of the existence of Zeus]; Philo, Aet. M. 42, Spec. Leg. 1, 300) Dg 8:11; ἐν ἀ. in the beginning (Simplicius in Epict. p. 104, 2) J 1:1f; ἐν ἀ. τῆς κτίσεως B 15:3. κατʼ ἀρχάς in the beg. Hb 1:10 (Ps 101:26; cf. Hdt. 3, 153 et al.; Diod. S.; Plut.; Philo, Leg. All. 3, 92, Det. Pot. Insid. 118; Ps 118:152).
d. fig., of pers. (Gen 49:3 Ῥουβὴν σὺ ἀρχὴ τέκνων μου; Dt 21:17): of Christ Col 1:18. W. τέλος of God or Christ Rv 1:8 v.l.; 21:6; 22:13 (Hymn to Selene 35 ἀ. καὶ τέλος εἶ: Orphica p. 294, likew. PGM 4, 2836; 13, 362; 687; Philo, Plant. 93; Jos., Ant. 8, 280; others in Rtzst., Poim. 270ff and cf. Dit., Syll.3 1125, 10 Αἰών, ἀρχὴν μεσότητα τέλος οὐκ ἔχων).
2. the first cause (philos. t.t. ODittrich, D. Systeme d. Moral I ’23, 360a.;—Ael. Aristid. 43, 9 K.=1 p. 3 D.: ἀρχὴ ἁπάντων Ζεύς τε καὶ ἐκ Διὸς πάντα; Jos., C. Ap. 2, 190God as ἀρχὴ κ. μέσα κ. τέλος τῶν πάντων) of Christ ἡ ἀ. τῆς κτίσεως Rv 3:14; but the mng. beginning=first created is linguistically poss. (s. above 1b and Job 40:19); cf. CFBurney, Christ as the Ἀρχή of Creation: JTS 27, ’26, 160-77,
3. ruler, authority (Aeschyl., Thu.+; inscr.; e.g. PHal. 1, 226 μαρτυρείτω ἐπὶ τῇ ἀρχῇ καὶ ἐπὶ τῷ δικαστηρίῳ; Gen 40:13, 21; 41:13; 2 Macc 4:10, 50 al., cf. Magie 26; so as a loanw. in rabb.) w. ἐξουσία Lk 20:20; pl. (Oenomaus in Euseb., Pr. Ev. 6, 7, 26 ἀρχαὶ κ. ἐξουσίαι; 4 Macc 8:7; Jos., Ant. 4, 220)Lk 12:11; Tit 3:1; MPol 10:2 (αἱ ἀρχαί can also be the officials as persons, as those who took part in the funeral procession of Sulla: Appian, Bell. Civ. 1, 106 §497.—The same mng. 2, 106 §442; 2, 118 §498 al. Likewise Diod. S. 34+35 fgm. 2, 31).—Also of angelic and demonic powers, since they were thought of as having a political organization (Damascius, Princ. 96 R.) Ro 8:38; 1 Cor 15:24; Eph 1:21; 3:10; 6:12; Col 1:16; 2:10, 15. Cf. Justin, Dial. 120 at end.
4. rule, office (Diod. S. 3, 53, 1; Appian, Bell. Civ. 1, 13 §57; Jos., C. Ap. 2, 177, Ant. 19, 273), or better domain, sphere of influence (Procop. Soph., Ep. 139) of the angels Jd 6.—Cf. the lit. on ἄγγελος and HSchlier, Mächte u. Gewalten im NT: ThBl 9, ’30, 289-97. M-M.


William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 111–112.


ἀρχή, -ῆς, ἡ, [fr. Hom. down], in Sept. mostly equiv. to תְּחִלָּה, רֵאשִׁית, ראשׁ;
1. beginning, origin;
a. used absolutely, of the beginning of all things: ἐν ἀρχῇ, Jn. 1:1 sq. (Gen. 1:1); ἀπʼ ἀρχῆς, Mt. 19:4 (with which cf. Xen. mem. 1, 4, 5 ὁ ἐξ ἀρχῆς ποιῶν ἀνθρώπους), 8; Jn. 8:44; 1 Jn. 1:1; 2:13 sq.; 3:8; more fully ἀπʼ ἀρχῆς κτίσεως or κόσμου, Mt. 24:21; Mk. 10:6; 13:19; 2 Th. 2:13 (where L [Tr mrg. WH mrg.] ὰπαρχήν, q. v.); 2 Pet. 3:4; κατʼ ἀρχάς, Heb. 1:10 (Ps. 101 (102):26).
b. in a relative sense, of the beginning of the thing spoken of: ἐξ ἀρχῆς, fr. the time when Jesus gathered disciples, Jn. 6:64; 16:4; ἀπʼ ἀρχῆς, Jn. 15:27 (since I appeared in public); as soon as instruction was imparted, 1 Jn. 2. [7], 24; 3:11; 2 Jn. 5 sq.; more fully ἑν ἀρχῇ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου, Phil. 4:15 (Clem. Rom. 1 Cor. 47, 2 [see note in Gebh. and Harn. ad loc. and cf.] Polyc. ad Philipp. 11, 3); from the beginning of the gospel history, Lk. 1:2; from the commencement of life, Acts 26:4; ἐν ἀρχῇ, in the beginning, when the church was founded, Acts 11:15. The acc. ἀρχήν [cf. W. 124 (118); Bp. Lghtft. on Col. 1:18] and τὴν ἀρχήν in the Grk. writ. (cf. Lennep ad Phalarid. p. 82 sqq. and p. 94 sqq. ed. Lips.; Brückner in De Wette’s Hdbch. on John p. 151) is often used adverbially, i. q. ὅλως altogether, (properly, an acc. of ‘direction towards’: usque ad initium, [cf. W. 230 (216); B. 153 (134)]), commonly followed by a negative, but not always [cf. e.g. Dio Cass. frag. 101 (93 Dind.); xlv. 34 (Dind. vol. ii. p. 194); lix. 20; lxii. 4; see, further, Lycurg. § 125 ed. Mätzner]; hence that extremely difficult passage, Jn. 8:25 τὴν … ὑμῖν, must in my opinion be interpreted as follows: I am altogether or wholly (i. e. in all respects, precisely) that which I even speak to you (I not only am, but also declare to you what I am; therefore you have no need to question me), [cf. W. 464 (432); B. 253 (218)]. ἀρχὴν λαμβάνειν to take beginning, to begin, Heb. 2:3. with the addition of the gen. of the thing spoken of: ὠδίνων, Mt. 24:8; Mk. 13:8 (9) [(here R G plur.); τῶν σημείων, Jn. 2:11]; ἡμερῶν, Heb. 7:3; τοῦ εὐαγγελίου, that from which the gospel history took its beginning, Mk. 1:1; τῆς ὑποστάσεως, the confidence with which we have made a beginning, opp. μέχρι τέλους, Heb. 3:14. τὰ στοιχεῖα τῆς ἀρχῆς, Heb. 5:12 (τῆς ἀρχῆς is added for greater explicitness, as in Lat. rudimenta prima, Liv. 1, 3; Justin, hist. 7, 5; and prima elementa, Horat. sat. 1, 1, 26, etc.); ὁ τῆς ἀρχῆς τοῦ Χριστοῦ λόγος equiv. to ὁ τοῦ Χριστοῦ λόγος ὁ τῆς ἀρχῆς, i. e. the instruction concerning Christ such as it was at the very outset [cf. W. 188 (177); B. 155 (136)], Heb. 6:1.
2. the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader: Col. 1:18; Rev. 1:8 Rec.; 21:6; 22:13; (Deut. 21:17; Job 40:14 (19), etc.).
3. that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause (a sense in which the philosopher Anaximander, 8th cent. B. C., is said to have been the first to use the word; cf. Simpl. on Aristot. phys. f. 9 p. 326 ed. Brandis and 32 p. 334 ed. Brandis, [cf. Teichmüller, Stud, zur Gesch. d. Begriffe, pp. 48 sqq. 560 sqq.]): ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως, of Christ as the divine λόγος, Rev. 3:14 (cf. Düsterdieck ad loc.; Clem. Al. protrept. 1, p. 6 ed. Potter, [p. 30 ed. Sylb.] ὁ λόγος ἀρχὴ θεῖα τῶν πάντων; in Evang. Nicod. c. 23 [p. 308 ed. Tdf., p. 736 ed. Thilo] the devil is called ἡ ἀρχὴ τοῦ θανάτου καὶ ῥίζα τῆς ἁμαρτίας).
4. the extremity of a thing: of the corners of a sail, Acts 10:11; 11:5; (Hdt. 4, 60; Diod. 1, 35; al.).
5. the first place, principality, rule, magistracy, [cf. Eng. ‘authorities’], (ἄρχω τινός): Lk. 12:11; 20:20; Tit. 3:1; office given in charge (Gen. 40:13, 21; 2 Macc. 4:10, etc.), Jude 6. Hence the term is transferred by Paul to angels and demons holding dominions entrusted to them in the order of things (see ἄγγελος, 2 [cf. Bp. Lghtft. on Col. 1:16; Mey. on Eph. 1:21]): Ro. 8:38; 1 Co. 15:24; Eph. 1:21; 3:10; 6:12; Col. 1:16; 2:10, 15. See ἐξουσία, 4 c. ββ.*


Joseph Henry Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm’s Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (New York: Harper & Brothers., 1889), 76–77.

Confirming translation

(AFV) And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans, write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginner of the creation of God.
(AUV) [this] to the angel of the church at Laodicia: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the source [or, ruler] of Godcreation [See John 1:3; Heb. 1:1-2]:
(BBE) And to the angel of the church in Laodicea say: These things says the true and certain witness, the head of God's new order:
(CEV) This is what you must write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: I am the one called Amen! I am the faithful and true witness and the source of God's creation. Listen to what I say.
cjb) "To the angel of the Messianic Community in Laodicea, write: 'Here is the message from the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the Ruler of God's creation:
(ERV) "Write this to the angel of the church in Laodicea: "Here is a message from the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of all that God has made.
(Etheridge) And to the angel of the church which is in Ladikia write: These saith the Amen, the Witness, the faithful, the true, the Head of the creation of Aloha.
(FAA) And write to the angel of the church in Laodicea, amen, the faithful and true witness, the source of God's creation, says this:
(FBV) this to the angel of the Laodicea church: This is what the Amen says, who is the faithful, true witness, highest ruler of Godcreation:
(GNB) "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: "This is the message from the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the origin of all that God has created.
(GSNT) "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: " 'The Amen, the true and faithful witness, the origin of God's creation, speaks thus:
(GW) "To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: The amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the source of God's creation, says:
(csb) "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God's creation says:
(HNC-NT) "Write this to the messenger of the called out people in Laodicea: Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Source of God’s creation says:
(ISV) "To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the originator of God's creation, says this:
(Moffatt NT) Then to the angel of the church at Laodicea write thus: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the origin of God's creation.
(LITV-TSP) And to the angel of the church of Laodicea, write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of God:
(BSB) To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God’s creation.
(EHV) To the messenger of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation, says this:
(HCSB) "Write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God's creation says:
(HRB) And to the messenger of the congregation of Laodicea, write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of YAHWEH:
(LEB) "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: "This is what the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the originator of God's creation, says:


There are more but the point is made

 

[Runningman]

Hopefully you will catch up to what scripture conveys. I share what is in scripture, but you have to be able to connect the nuances. It is true that the Trinitarian doctrine also says that Jesus is not God within a man. The best we express the scriptures is that Jesus is 100% man and %100 God. The scriptures you try to focus on are the humanity part. You seem unable to get beyond the few humanity verses in order to pay attention to Christ as part of the Godhead. At the same time, I have to try to guess your religious affiliation.

While you seem to correctly nod to the fact that Scriptures do not say that Jesus is not God within a man, you immediately claim something the Scriptures also do that say, which makes it your claim that Jesus is "100% man and 100% God" Which Scriptures focus on Jesus being God if you say I am not focusing on them? I have addressed all of the comments given to me, as far as I am aware.

Scripture shows Jesus existing before Abraham. John 1 shows Jesus being God. I can only go by the testimony of scripture. Maybe you have some other source your get your bias from. All that is apparent is that you are trying to argue for doctrines that have been identified as heretical while also being unable to explain away the passages of Christ's divinity. You really will have to come up with some grand arguments to deny Christ's divinity. Why do you even think you have some insight beyond what is common understanding of the Godhead? If you think you have some greater intellect to argue for the mere humanity of Jesus, it sure is not showing up within your discussion here. That is why you have to be careful in what you are proposing.

Which verse in the Old Testament, before Abraham, shows Jesus existing then? The floor is yours and has always been yours to present your case. So far I have seen nothing about Jesus existing before Abraham.

 

[Runningman]

Hello

1 John 1:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

Was that supposed to be a serious challenge

I was expecting you to take this seriously. So what you have provided refers to eternal life as a thing. Read the beginning of the verse where it refers to the life that was manifested as an it.

Where is Jesus called eternal in Scripture?

 

[Runningman]

Did you just ignore what I posted

The word beginning can mean the origin or the ruler

Revelation 3:14 (NASB 2020) — 14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Origin of the creation of God, says this:

Revelation 3:14 (NIV) — 14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.

Unlikely since only the Father is referred to as the Sovereign Lord and Creator in Acts 4:L24-27 while Jesus is listed as His servant. That's it. Most versions translates Revelation 3:14 as the "beginning" of God's creation. Why do you suppose this is the most popular translation and the one you're presenting is not?

Christ created all things and nothing was made which was made without him

John 1:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

And the word was there in the beginning of creation

John 1:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Following normal grammar rules, then the "by him; and without him" pronouns in John 1:3 would refer to the closest noun. In the John 1:2 the closest noun would not be the Word, but rather who the Word was with which is God. That would mean the Word isn't the actual creator.... again.

creating all things

Colossians 1:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Colossians 1:15 contradicts your assertion since it identifies as not being God, but rather the image of the invisible God, and also part of the creation again.

Colossians 1
15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Colossians 1:16 is in regards to a specific context referring to thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers specifically and it's also clear that Jesus isn't the Creator. "By him" means "through him" and it refers to instrumentality.

 

[MTMattie]

@Runningman and every other anti-Trin person reading this. Until you learn about the WORD and His relationship to Jesus and you will never understand what we do, I am sure, for your very own reasons you do not want to.... but when I read the following it is so easily understandable that y'all have to have a read.I tried to make a small story from it....Dick takes Jane to bible school.And they are learning the following scriptures. John 1: 1-5 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.John 1:714 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father,

(Jane.... screamed Dick. Did you see what it is said here? It syas that Word became flesh and they saw him as the only begotten from the Father. You know what that means? It means the Word was Jesus. He came to earth. )full of grace and truth. 15 John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.Both Dick and Jane were confused. They could not understand how two with 2 different names could be one, but they also were so excited for the next lesson day.They had been given a paper.... titled

What Did John Mean When He Called Jesus the “Word”? (John 1)

John proclaims the Word as God, through whom the world was made, in whom is life, and who is unquenchable light.

www.crossway.org

What Did John Mean When He Called Jesus the “Word”? (John 1)​

December 01, 2021by: James M. Hamilton Jr

Jane pointed out that the paper could be wrong. After all, it was written by a Baptist and everyone knows they think differently then the Lutherans and Methodists.But Dick was quick to point out that they were given this paper from their very own church, so it must be alright. So they headed home to start to read it because they knew the next week would be a small test on what they learned.

"In the Beginning Was the Word​

Could there be a more profound opening to a book than the one to John’s Gospel? One could search the great ideas of mankind and probe the ponderings of the philosophers and the poetry of the artists and find no idea higher than God, nor a more concise—yet expressive—statement about him, than the one John makes at the beginning of his Gospel. John profoundly links his Gospel to the creation account in Genesis 1 with the words “In the beginning” (John 1:1a) before launching into the world’s most economical articulation of the everlasting relationship between God the Father and God the Son.
The first statement of John’s Gospel is a bomb of meaning that goes off without warning, erupting suddenly, and the sublime and inexpressible, the infinite and unsearchable, the personal and ineffable reality of God comes exploding onto the consciousness of John’s audience in the words of John 1:1–5. Here John proclaims the Word as God, through whom the world was made, in whom is life, and who is unquenchable light.
Having asserted that the Word was in the beginning (v. 1a), John differentiates the Word from God by saying, “and the Word was with God” (v. 1b), before identifying the Word as God with the final phrase of verse 1, “and the Word was God.” Behold the mystery of the Trinity: within the one God are three persons sharing one nature forever. The Word was with God and the Word was God. Something so beautiful and glorious, so complex and simple, must be admired. John is like a man holding out a diamond to a viewer who, after the initial awe-inspiring presentation, begins to turn the stone so that all its facets might be admired from various angles. In verse 2, he restates what he said in verse 1: “He was in the beginning with God.”

The Word is the communication of the Father. He is the rational force of Fatherly fulsomeness overflowing in infinite goodness. That Word was no impersonal force but a full person, alongside the Father at the principial moment of all things. The Word was both with God and was God. Was and with. What God was, the Word was. The Word was God, and the Word was with God. Coequal, indistinguishable, yet distinct.1
John declares the mystery of the Trinity in the fewest words possible. Could more be stated with less? These two verses, John 1:1–2, invite us to contemplation and meditation. We must repeat these statements until they are etched on our minds, then ponder them, read about them, and respond to them by worshiping the incomparable God these words describe.
John has chosen to use a philosophically loaded term, logos, in these references to the “Word.” John ministered in Ephesus, so his audience probably would have been at least vaguely familiar with the use of the term in Greek philosophical discussion. There were probably also some ethnic Jews in John’s audience who might have been aware of the use of “word” (Aramaic memra) in various Jewish traditions. Two factors, however, are most significant for understanding what John meant when he chose to use logos, “the Word,” as a way of referring to Jesus: first, the use of “word” in the OT; and second, the way John fills out the meaning of the term through his descriptions of Jesus in this Gospel. In other words, if we want to understand what John means by referring to Jesus as “the Word,” we should not allow our thoughts to be controlled by Greek philosophy or Jewish tradition but by the OT and John’s own Gospel.

The Life-Giving Word​

John has invoked the creation account in Genesis 1 with the opening phrase of John 1:1, so when he continues in verse 3 with the statement, “All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made,” it would seem that he has in mind the way God spoke creation into existence in Genesis 1. John seems to indicate that God created by speaking, and that Jesus was the Word through whom God made the world.
When John writes that “without him was not any thing made that was made” (John 1:3b), he asserts that God the Father through the Son is responsible for all that is. Nothing has slithered into the world apart from the sovereign purpose of the world’s Creator (cf. Isa. 45:7). John asserts without equivocation or qualification: all was made through Jesus; without Jesus nothing was made.
The Word was in the beginning (John 1:1–2). Through the Word the Father created (v. 3). And the power of animation that makes created things alive was in the Word, as John puts it in verse 4: “In him was life, and the life was the light of men.” Life was in Jesus. That life is the source of any light leading to any perception by any man. John here asserts that creation and life came from God’s direct activity in Christ.
God created through the Son, without whom nothing could exist (v. 3). Life was in the Son, and light comes from this life (v. 4). The origin of light (“Let there be light”) is the life force pulsating in the very Word of God, and darkness will neither overcome nor comprehend that Light. John writes in verse 5, “The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.” The term rendered overcome could just as well be rendered “comprehended” (NASB) or “understood” (NIV 1984). The term bears both meanings, and John likely employs it as a double meaning: the darkness will not prevail over Jesus, and even if the forces of darkness kill him, he will rise. Life is in him. Nor can people in darkness understand that light unless they are born of God (1:13). Darkness can no more overcome the light than creation could overcome its Creator. And those who flee from the light to hide their evil in darkness (cf. 3:20) need the words of spirit and life (6:63) to give them the ability to see and enter the kingdom (3:3, 5).

John proclaims the Word as God, through whom the world was made, in whom is life, and who is unquenchable light.

The Word Tabernacled Among Us​

Not until 1:14 is it specified that the Word is Jesus, as John writes, “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” In verse 1 John had articulated the divinity and eternality of the Word, as well as his distinguishability from the Father, and now he communicates the profundity of the incarnation. The Word became flesh. God became man. Jesus did not cease to be the Word when he became flesh. The phrase “dwelt among us” could just as well be rendered “tabernacled among us.” John uses the cognate verb for the noun used in Greek translations of the OT to refer to the tabernacle, thus recalling the way God dwelt in the tabernacle in the midst of the people of Israel, and this is the first of a number of ways John will communicate how Jesus fulfills the temple and its ministry.2

In verse 14, John writes of himself and others who were born of God, received Jesus, and believed in his name: “We have seen his glory.” There seems to be a connection between Jesus as the light (vv. 4–5) and display of his glory (v. 14). Those who are born of God are enabled to see the work of God in Christ (cf. 3:3), so rather than flee the light they perceive it as glorious (1:14; 2:11; 3:21).
In the Son we have a perfect revelation of the Father. Would you give something so precious to people like us? Would you be as generous as God is in giving so much to those who deserve so little? Those who deserve wrath? God has given the light. The light has come into the world. The darkness will neither comprehend nor overcome that light: it killed him but could not keep him dead. How are you responding to the light? Rejecting or receiving?
Behold the glory of Jesus, only begotten of the Father, Word before all worlds, light that gives life, fullness of grace and truth, Son revealing his Father, to whom be glory forever.

 

[mikesw]

While you seem to correctly nod to the fact that Scriptures do not say that Jesus is not God within a man, you immediately claim something the Scriptures also do that say, which makes it your claim that Jesus is "100% man and 100% God" Which Scriptures focus on Jesus being God if you say I am not focusing on them? I have addressed all of the comments given to me, as far as I am aware.

I should clarify that the heresy I pointed out, namely "Jesus is not God within a man," is rejected because scripture does not convey that man is some avatar that God just goes inhabits at some point in time. You even properly mention the full humanity of Christ Jesus in his incarnation.

Which verse in the Old Testament, before Abraham, shows Jesus existing then? The floor is yours and has always been yours to present your case. So far I have seen nothing about Jesus existing before Abraham.

That is the whole perversion of your approach. You are denying the doctrine that you apparently have a total lack of knowledge about. How about studying the Trinitarian doctrine so you know what you are up against?

 

[Runningman]

I should clarify that the heresy I pointed out, namely "Jesus is not God within a man," is rejected because scripture does not convey that man is some avatar that God just goes inhabits at some point in time.

Good.

You even properly mention the full humanity of Christ Jesus in his incarnation.

?? I did? I don't even believe that.

That is the whole perversion of your approach. You are denying the doctrine that you apparently have a total lack of knowledge about. How about studying the Trinitarian doctrine so you know what you are up against?

I know all about Trinitarianism which is why I want to debate it with you all.

 

[Fred]

Jesus has a beginning point according to Scripture and he was created.

Revelation 3​

14“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.​

The above is in reference to the resurrection of Jesus.

The Beginning of the creation of God (3:14) = the firstborn of the dead (1:5)

Revelation 3:14
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this
Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful Witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood.

 

[TomL]

Paul stated that he resurrection fulfilled the prophecy that clearly states “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father." He actually said that. I know that is problematic to accept what Paul said because, if literal, it directly means Jesus wasn't always the Son of God in every since of the word until the fulfillment of a prophecy.

Wow I just don't know where you are getting all of this from. The Bible says God worked through Jesus, not that Jesus is God within a man who was working through Jesus.

Acts 10
37You yourselves know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee with the baptism that John proclaimed: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.

Um

This was before the resurrection

Mark 1:11 (KJV 1900) — 11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

 

[mikesw]

Good.

?? I did? I don't even believe that.


I know all about Trinitarianism which is why I want to debate it with you all.

ok. i thought you had believed in the humanity of Jesus. My mistake.

If you knew all about Trinitarianism, you ask questions that you should know the answers to but you never seem to.

 

[TomL]

Good.

?? I did? I don't even believe that.


I know all about Trinitarianism which is why I want to debate it with you all.

So why do you make comments which appear not to

 

[TomL]

I was expecting you to take this seriously. So what you have provided refers to eternal life as a thing. Read the beginning of the verse where it refers to the life that was manifested as an it.

Where is Jesus called eternal in Scripture?

1 John 1:1–2 (NASB 2020) — 1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life—2 and the life was revealed, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was revealed to us—

 

[Runningman]

1 John 1:1–2 (NASB 2020) — 1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life—2 and the life was revealed, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was revealed to us—

What was "from the beginning" that the disciples could hear, see, and touch? If literally the beginning of creation, that's something physical "from the beginning." So what was something physical from the beginning they could touch? If they are referring to Jesus, then at the beginning of creation Jesus was a physical being. The Word wasn't physical flesh at the beginning of creation, as far as we know, right? So what "beginning" was John referring to here? Either John is referring to the beginning of Jesus' ministry or he is speaking symbolically of the Word as something they can hear, see, and touch, i.e., taste the word of God and see that it's good, rightly handle the word of God...

You already know my stance on this, but please think about it and let me know what you think.

 

[mikesw]

What was "from the beginning" that the disciples could hear, see, and touch? If literally the beginning of creation, that's something physical "from the beginning." So what was something physical from the beginning they could touch? If they are referring to Jesus, then at the beginning of creation Jesus was a physical being. The Word wasn't physical flesh at the beginning of creation, as far as we know, right? So what "beginning" was John referring to here? Either John is referring to the beginning of Jesus' ministry or he is speaking symbolically of the Word as something they can hear, see, and touch, i.e., taste the word of God and see that it's good, rightly handle the word of God...

You already know my stance on this, but please think about it and let me know what you think.

Sure. This shows from the beginning that you get confused. Stott might find this Word of Life as the gospel. But he seems to do this on tenuous grounds. The gospel is not something touched. The description is too physically oriented in 1 John1 :1-2 to refer to the good news that would come. Nor does the gospel itself have meaning accept from the arrival of the Messiah. It is fine that "from the beginning" refers to the eternal pre-existence of Christ. You lack comprehension that Christ is 100% God and 100% man. I am okay that the physicality of the Word came through the birth of Jesus and that we now of God who has experienced humanity and now also shares a new-creation existence. It makes much better sense then to see the Word in 1 John 1 as the Word in John 1. So you miss the third aspect where the beginning refers to his pre-existence but now he was seen and touched. To think otherwise is to miss the nuance of scripture. I can start to see where your confusion originates.
Of course if you wish to pursue the reading you are suggesting, then you can start speaking of God as a Quaternity. But that could not likely be sustained.

 

[Runningman]

Sure. This shows from the beginning that you get confused. Stott might find this Word of Life as the gospel. But he seems to do this on tenuous grounds. The gospel is not something touched. The description is too physically oriented in 1 John1 :1-2 to refer to the good news that would come. Nor does the gospel itself have meaning accept from the arrival of the Messiah. It is fine that "from the beginning" refers to the eternal pre-existence of Christ. You lack comprehension that Christ is 100% God and 100% man. I am okay that the physicality of the Word came through the birth of Jesus and that we now of God who has experienced humanity and now also shares a new-creation existence. It makes much better sense then to see the Word in 1 John 1 as the Word in John 1. So you miss the third aspect where the beginning refers to his pre-existence but now he was seen and touched. To think otherwise is to miss the nuance of scripture. I can start to see where your confusion originates.
Of course if you wish to pursue the reading you are suggesting, then you can start speaking of God as a Quaternity. But that could not likely be sustained.

In the present tense, referring to the "that which" was from the beginning, they could see, hear, and touch it. That implies that what John is referring to is touchable in the beginning just as it was in John's present. So it didn't change and is still tangible now and has always been tangible. John is referring to the Word of Life in this entire context. He isn't describing an incarnating, but rather something that was revealed by Jesus. The entire narrative about John 1's Word should incorporate what John also wrote in 1 John 1. I believe this only clarifies what he meant. He also calls the Word of Life an it in this passage. Most translators I have seen say this.