James' Teaching On Justification: Before Men Or Before God?

[mailmandan]

Dan's perversion of obedience.
Obey just means to believe,

You are being deceptive. I never said that obey "just means" to believe. I said in Romans 10:16 the act of obedience here is choosing to believe the gospel. That is the act of obedience that saves. Not to be confused with multiple acts obedience/works which follow. I have explained this numerous times.

So heres Dan's gospel teaching on obedience. Obey means to believe in his religion.
That's all it means.
Except when he contradicts himself and teaches obedience is more than just belief,

You are thoroughly confused.

Now he teaches any commandment not obeyed is not obedience.

It cannot be both!!!
Either to obey any commandment is obedience.
Or the word obey only means to believe.

More confusion. Until the veil is removed, I might as well be trying to explain algebra to my dog.

Clearly a contradiction.

Clearly you are confused.

Obedience means much more than just to believe the gospel.
And Dan already admitted it,

So, why are you accusing me of a contradiction? Choosing to believe the gospel is an act of obedience and there are multiple acts of obedience that one can obey after they believe the gospel. This is not rocket science.

No they cannot.
Since you teach obeying the commandment of baptism is unnecessary.
You have perverted the gospel.

Obeying the command to be baptized is for those already saved. (Acts 10:43-47)

Romans 6:17,
- but God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered
This obedience was to gospel baptism,

That is your EISEGESIS.

Romans 6:1-6,
- dont you know, that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey you are that ones slave whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death or of obedience leading to righteousness

You can't ever see the word obey or obedience without gravitating to works salvation. Before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH." "Obeying the gospel" and "obeying that form of doctrine" in these passages is really a synonym for BELIEVING the gospel. Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

I've noticed that works-salvationists will typically ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stress "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience which "follow" saving faith in Christ are "unto righteousness," as if we are saved by works.

In Romans 6:16, there are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense: servants of sin unto death and servants of obedience unto righteousness. When we believe the gospel by trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation/place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation (Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 5:1) we then become servants of obedience unto righteousness.

*Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

*Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

Paul has always taught obedient faith saves.

Faith that saves results in obedience/good works. You put the cart before the horse because you teach salvation by works.

Acts 10:47-48,
- can anyone forbid water that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit as we have
- and Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord

They believed, received the Holy Spirit and were already saved when they obeyed the command to be baptized.

In the name of the Lord is by the authority of God.
Dan teaches you do not need to obey this commandment to be saved.
Therefore his gospel is faith alone and no obedience to be saved.

More deception. Dan teaches faith in Jesus Christ alone saves. God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Titus confuses the command to be water baptized AFTER we are saved with a command to be saved. Titus teaches a works based false gospel which is disobedience. (Romans 10:16)

Colossians 3:16,17,
- let the word of Christ dwell in you
- and whatever you do in word or work do all in the name of the Lord Jesus

Dan teaches you can be saved without doing everything in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Titus promotes a works based false gospel and claims that it's in the name of the Lord Jesus. Sad.

 

[mailmandan]

Obedience does not result or produce faith

Faith does result in or produce obedience

hope this helps. !!!

Praise the Lord! It's nice to see that someone gets it!

 

[Titus]

Duh. Now answer my question. Who has been 100% obedient to ALL of God's commands 100% of the time?

No one. The Bible never defines obedience to God as perfectly sinless.

Once again you are rewriting the meaning of the gospel into your own definition of obedience to God.

Can one obey the commandment to be baptized and not be perfectly sinless Dan?
Yes they can!!!
Hebrews 5:8-9.

I answer your questions.

 

[Titus]

Obedience does not result or produce faith

Faith does result in or produce obedience

hope this helps. !!!

I've already taught this.

Faith produces good works therefore Faith produces fruit.

Colossians 1:18,
- that we might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work...

You taught works are not fruit of faith.
Yes they are.
A Christians good works is the fruit that faith produces.

If you mean a mans good works is not what produces faith. Then I agree.
The word, gospel is what produces faith and faith produces works/fruit.

 

[Titus]

Praise the Lord! It's nice to see that someone gets it!

As if I dont already teach this.
More misrepresentation, trying to deceive people into believing I dont teach this.

 

[civic]

I've already taught this.

So both you and Dan agree with my statement which means we all agree.

Maybe you are talking passed one another to prove your points. Just a thought fwiw.

hope this helps !!!

 

[mailmandan]

No one.

Thank you!

The Bible never defines obedience to God as perfectly sinless.

Yet we are still safe through faith and not through imperfect obedience.

Once again you are rewriting the meaning of the gospel into your own definition of obedience to God.

Not at all. (Romans 1:16; 10:16)

Can one obey the commandment to be baptized and not be perfectly sinless Dan?
Yes they can!!!

Of course they can yet the gospel is still not be baptized or be condemned.

Hebrews 5:8-9.

I answer your questions.

Thank you. I'm happy to hear that you don't teach sinless perfection. Now in regard to Hebrews 5:8-9, who obeys Him? Believers or make believers?

Only genuine believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only genuine believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commandments/ practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 2:3; 3:7-10) In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith it's impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up from an unregenerate heart in a vain effort to receive salvation based on works. (Matthew 7:22-23) So, in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

 

[mailmandan]

As if I dont already teach this.
More misrepresentation, trying to deceive people into believing I dont teach this.

Here is what you teach below:

Scripture says that faith exists the moment it includes action (James 2:20, 22, 24, 26).Action is not the fruit of faith. Action is the soul, the life blood, the heart of faith.

So, according to you, faith doesn't exist until this nonexistent faith includes action. You skip right over (Ephesians 2:5-9) and fail to understand that faith has an origin and after being made alive together with Christ/saved by grace through faith, not works, we are then created in Christ Jesus unto action - good works which "follow." (Ephesians 2:10) You still have the cart before the horse.

You are wrong on so many levels and it's because you teach works salvation.

 

[dwight92070]

"Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved." Luke 8:12

So what does Jesus say will cause people to be saved? The word in their heart. Notice He doesn't say that they must also be baptized to be saved.

We know that Jesus' disciples did baptize new disciples from John 4:1.

" ... the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were).

So new disciples were baptized during Jesus' ministry. But Jesus is first and foremost concerned about people getting saved, which ONLY happens when they receive the word in their heart. Then baptism can be done and then good works follow, which in and of themselves, can save no one.

 

[dwight92070]

So Jesus said that it is believing the word of the gospel in their heart that will save them. If they don't believe, they will not be saved. Luke 8:12. Jesus doesn't even mention baptism, even though all His new disciples were baptized after they believed.

 

[Doug Brents]

To be more specific, SAVING FAITH exists the moment that we place it in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:5-9)

You are correct, but again, you have an improper understanding of what faith is. Faith is not something you can do in your head/heart. Faith requires, demands, and is dead without action.

Nothing stupid about that. It takes more than human wisdom to understand the things of the Spirit of God. It takes spiritual discernment. (1 Corinthians 2:11-14) The Bible is not merely a text book.

Everyone has faith in something, but not everyone has saving faith in Jesus Christ. Many instead have faith in works (at least in part). Roman Catholics, Mormons and Campbellites, just to name a few.

You are correct, everyone has faith in something. Most put their faith in Satan's worldly delights, so they obey the desires of their flesh. You seem to be putting your faith in Satan's smokescreen of just a thought in your head/heart, so you think that no obedience in necessary, so you do nothing which results in a dead faith. But putting faith in Jesus requires obedience to what Jesus commanded (not suggested, not hinted at; commanded) as leading to or resulting in our receiving His gift.

You have a problem with CAUSE and EFFECT. Faith in Jesus Christ is the cause and works are the effect. We have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:2) Paul says nothing here about faith and actions/works which follow. More cart before the horse nonsense.

No, Jesus' death and resurrection is the cause of our salvation. Our faith is the effect, and as Scripture says, faith requires action or it isn't real, isn't effective, is dead.

Faith demonstrates that it exists the moment we show our faith by our actions/works (James 2:14-18) yet saving faith exists the moment we trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

You do not trust Jesus if you do not obey Him. Just having a thought in your mind/heart is not faith in Him.

No, I have the whole truth. (James 2:14-24; Romans 4:2-6) *Perfect Harmony*

Your "perfect harmony" will result in the damnation of everyone you teach. You know in part, and you teach in part.

False. A good tree (which represents a believer) bears good fruit (which represents good works) but a bad tree (which represents an unbeleiver and includes make believers) bears bad fruit (which represents bad works) - Matthew 7:17. Your argument is with Jesus and not me.

In Matthew 13:23, we read - But the one sown on the good ground—this is one who hears and understands the word, who does produce fruit and yields: some a hundred, some sixty, some thirty times what was sown. Fruit here represents good works. All genuine believers are fruitful yet not all are equally fruitful.

Again, the fruit in these passages is the result of salvation, not the fruit of faith. A living, active, productive faith in Jesus is required to receive salvation in the first place. This faith leads to receiving salvation, and the actions required in this faith are few and specific.

False. That's like saying fruit produced from a tree is the life blood, the heart of the tree. Being made alive together with Christ by grace through faith is the life blood, the heart of faith.

So it is your argument with God, not mine. He is the one who said that actions are the soul of faith, the thing without which faith is dead and meaningless (James 2:26). Our changed life is the life blood of salvation, not of faith.

We do not demonstrate that we have faith unless we have action which follows. No action to follow demonstrates no faith. Faith = belief, trust, reliance. Action which follow = works.

Again, this is not Biblical. We do not have faith at all unless we take actions of obedience to Jesus' commands. Actions do not "follow" faith, they are an integral part of it without which it is not real or alive. Faith does not equal belief. Faith equals a complete trust, throwing our life, soul, future, and all we have on Jesus' promise to save us. Literally, this is accomplished through surrendering to Him in water baptism. You can argue till you're blue in the face, but it won't change what Scripture says. I pray you come to realize that before it is too late.

 

[Doug Brents]

So, according to you, faith doesn't exist until this nonexistent faith includes action. You skip right over (Ephesians 2:5-9) and fail to understand that faith has an origin

Faith does indeed have an origin. And that origin is in hearing the Word of God, the Gospel of salvation (Rom 10:17). And I do not skip over Eph 2:5-9. I understand Eph 2:5-9 in context and in conjunction with Rom 10:9-10, Acts 2:38, James 2:14-26, and other passages. Eph 2:5-9 does not say that there are no actions that are necessary to receive salvation. It says that we receive salvation through faith, and once salvation is received there are good works that we were made to do. But that says NOTHING about there not being actions that are a part of the faith that leads to receiving salvation in the first place. That would be YOUR eisegesis.

and after being made alive together with Christ/saved by grace through faith, not works,

There is no such thing as faith without works. That very concept is foreign to Scripture.

we are then created in Christ Jesus unto action - good works which "follow." (Ephesians 2:10) You still have the cart before the horse.

Good works are indeed actions that follow salvation. But that is not the works that result in salvation being received.

 

[mailmandan]

Faith does indeed have an origin. And that origin is in hearing the Word of God, the Gospel of salvation (Rom 10:17). And I do not skip over Eph 2:5-9. I understand Eph 2:5-9 in context and in conjunction with Rom 10:9-10, Acts 2:38, James 2:14-26, and other passages.

Good works including water baptism are not the origin of faith. Trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (and not works) is the origin of faith. (Ephesians 2:5-9)

Hearing the word (Romans 10:17) and repentance (changing our mind) precedes faith. (Acts 20:21) Confessing with our mouth that Jesus's Lord and believing in our heart that got has raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:9,10) The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER. (Romans 10:8)

Water baptism, along with feeding and clothing the poor are good works which "follow" saving faith in Christ and are produced "out of" faith. (Acts 10:43-47; Romans 4:2-6; Hebrews 11:17-19; James 2:15-16) You have not correctly interpreted these passages of scripture in context or properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.

Eph 2:5-9 does not say that there are no actions that are necessary to receive salvation.

Where does Ephesians 2:5-9 add actions to salvation through faith? What part of it is not of ourselves/it is the gift of God/not of works do you not understand? You try to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works but the shoe does not fit.

It says that we receive salvation through faith, and once salvation is received there are good works that we were made to do.

Being God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus FOR good works "follows" having been safe through faith. (Ephesians 2:8-10) You continue to put the cart before the horse.

But that says NOTHING about there not being actions that are a part of the faith that leads to receiving salvation in the first place. That would be YOUR eisegesis.

This is where you repeatedly error. You say works which "follow" having been saved through faith are actually part of faith which makes them the very essence of faith and also makes them meritorious towards your receiving salvation. That is your continued eisegesis which is also your achilles heel.

There is no such thing as faith without works. That very concept is foreign to Scripture.

Faith has an origin and works are not instantaneous yet genuine faith does not remain without works. You act like faith at its origin is dead and basically nonexistent until works are produced and then suddenly faith springs to life and saves you.

That's like saying an apple tree which has been planted and is firmly rooted and established remains dead until apples grow on the tree later and only after the apples are produced, then it becomes a living tree. See your logic?

Good works are indeed actions that follow salvation. But that is not the works that result in salvation being received.

Good works follow salvation. Amen! You teach saved by "these" works and just not "those" works. So do Roman Catholics. You remain determined to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works. Let the boasting begin.

 

[Doug Brents]

Good works including water baptism are not the origin of faith.

You are right, they are not the origin of faith. Good works are a part of faith just as Christ is a part of God.

Trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (and not works) is the origin of faith. (Ephesians 2:5-9)

Wrong. Trusting in Jesus is not the origin of faith. The Gospel of Jesus is the origin of faith (Rom 10:17).

Hearing the word (Romans 10:17) and repentance (changing our mind) precedes faith.

Hearing the Word does precede faith, but repentance is an act of faith (Acts 3:19).

(Acts 20:21) Confessing with our mouth that Jesus's Lord and believing in our heart that got has raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:9,10) The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER. (Romans 10:8)

I have never said that they were two separate steps separated chronologically in any way. That is you reading your own thoughts into what I write, just as you do into Scripture (eisegesis). Yes, the instant someone believes in who Jesus is they should repent of their sins, confess Jesus as their Lord, and be baptized into Christ. This is what is demonstrated all through the NT Scripture. There is ALWAYS an urgency on the part of the teacher to bring the student into Christ through baptism.

Water baptism, along with feeding and clothing the poor are good works which "follow" saving faith in Christ and are produced "out of" faith.

Please show me the Scripture where baptism is equated with feeding the poor (or any other "good work"). Baptism is the point at which we are joined with Christ in death and resurrection (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14).

(Acts 10:43-47; Romans 4:2-6; Hebrews 11:17-19; James 2:15-16) You have not correctly interpreted these passages of scripture in context or properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.

Sure I have. Those passages state that faith, not intellectual assent, is required for salvation. And this agrees with Rom 10:9-10 which says that an action of faith (confession) results in salvation being received, which agrees with Acts 3:19 which says that an action of faith (repentance) results in receiving salvation, which agrees with Acts 2:38 which says that two actions of faith (repentance and water baptism) result in receiving salvation. Remember, ALL Scripture must be true at the same time. Just because one verse (or even 419 verses) only mention "belief" in relation to salvation, that does not negate the other passages that state a specific action is necessary.

Where does Ephesians 2:5-9 add actions to salvation through faith?

Eph 2:5-9 does not define faith. But Heb 11:1 and James 2:14-26 do define faith, and they both indicate that action is an integral part of what faith is, and that without action there is no faith.

What part of it is not of ourselves/it is the gift of God/not of works do you not understand?

There is nothing there that contradicts what I have said. Jesus purchased salvation for mankind. He didn't have to. He didn't have a gun to His head forcing Him to submit. He didn't owe us salvation. He went to the cross of His own free will, and chose to give His life for us. That is what is "not of ourselves". That is the "gift of God". But faith REQUIRES action. If there is no action then there is no faith; it just doesn't exist. So when it says that God's grace comes to us "through faith", that means that it comes to us through the actions that God ordained as resulting in us receiving salvation.

Just as Naaman only received healing after he dipped in Jordan the seventh time, we too must take obedient action to receive God's gift.

Being God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus FOR good works "follows" having been safe through faith. (Ephesians 2:8-10) You continue to put the cart before the horse.

Indeed good works do follow salvation. But repentance, confession, and baptism are not "good works". They are of no benefit to orphans, widows, the poor, the destitute, etc.

This is where you repeatedly error. You say works which "follow" having been saved through faith are actually part of faith which makes them the very essence of faith and also makes them meritorious towards your receiving salvation. That is your continued eisegesis which is also your achilles heel.

I serve God, and He does not have an "Achilles' heel". He is the one who established what is required to receive His gift, not me. I am simply telling you what He said. You would have told Naaman that he didn't really have to dip in Jordan to be healed. You would have told him to just believe in the prophet and he would be healed regardless of what the prophet told him. But that would have left him suffering in his leprosy.

Faith has an origin and works are not instantaneous yet genuine faith does not remain without works. You act like faith at its origin is dead and basically nonexistent until works are produced and then suddenly faith springs to life and saves you.

You cannot have faith without works. The two are united like the two sides of a coin. You cannot have one without the other. You do not get one side of a coin, and then later the other side shows up. You either have both side, or you have nothing.

That's like saying an apple tree which has been planted and is firmly rooted and established remains dead until apples grow on the tree later and only after the apples are produced, then it becomes a living tree. See your logic?

Bad analogy. Faith is not a tree. In this case it is more like a coin as mentioned above.

Good works follow salvation. Amen! You teach saved by "these" works and just not "those" works. So do Roman Catholics. You remain determined to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works. Let the boasting begin.

No boasting at all. Read, really study Luke 17:7-10. There is no boasting in doing what was commanded by the Master. There is only obediently doing what He says, and being thankful that He keeps His promises.

 

[dwight92070]

mailmandan, please go teach your dog algebra. You'll get better results and your dog won't condemn you to hell, as Doug did.

 

[mailmandan]

You are correct, but again, you have an improper understanding of what faith is.
Faith is not something you can do in your head/heart.

So, we don't believe in our heart that God has raised Him from the dead and it's not with the heart that one believes unto righteousness? Romans 10:9,10 says otherwise. What is believed in our heart is confirmed with our mouth.

Roman Catholics also try to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works and cannot seem to grasp a deeper faith from the heart that trusts in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

Here is a statement below in blue that a Roman Catholic once made to me.

We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc..

That statement in blue is absolutely false. Roman Catholics basically teach that we are saved by faith "infused" with works and then those works become meritorious in receiving salvation.

Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, if someone asked me what faith is, I would have basically said, faith "is" baptism, faith "is" multiple acts of obedience, faith "is" works, which is incorrect.

Faith is the substance/certainty/assurance of things hoped for, the evidence/conviction/proof of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1)

Faith requires, demands, and is dead without action.

Faith results in action and if no action is ever produced then such a person would demonstrate they have a bare profession of faith and not genuine faith.

You are correct, everyone has faith in something. Most put their faith in Satan's worldly delights, so they obey the desires of their flesh.

In the "religious, but not right with God" world, most put their faith in false religion/works righteousness.

You seem to be putting your faith in Satan's smokescreen of just a thought in your head/heart, so you think that no obedience in necessary, so you do nothing which results in a dead faith.

That is a straw man argument and who said that no obedience has ever been produced from my faith, resulting in a dead faith? That is your assumption. Just because I'm not trusting in my works for salvation does not mean that I refuse to produce good works from faith expressing itself through love. Don't let Satan's smokescreen keep you from accepting Romans 10:8-10. Saving belief in Christ is from the heart.

But putting faith in Jesus requires obedience to what Jesus commanded (not suggested, not hinted at; commanded) as leading to or resulting in our receiving His gift.

Works-salvationists confuse what Jesus commands us to do in order to become saved with what Jesus commands us to do after we have been saved. That error culminates in works salvation.

No, Jesus' death and resurrection is the cause of our salvation. Our faith is the effect, and as Scripture says, faith requires action or it isn't real, isn't effective, is dead.

Jesus' death, burial and resurrection is the means of our salvation and faith is the instrumental means by which we obtain salvation. Actions/works which follow are the effect and demonstrate that our faith is real.

You do not trust Jesus if you do not obey Him. Just having a thought in your mind/heart is not faith in Him.

Believing in/placing faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation is trusting in Jesus for salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) We obey Him unto salvation when we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 10:16) Believing in our heart involves trust and reliance and not mere "mental assent" belief.

Your "perfect harmony" will result in the damnation of everyone you teach. You know in part, and you teach in part.

That is your opinion and that judgment call of condemnation is well above your pay grade. You are not God. Be careful!

Again, the fruit in these passages is the result of salvation, not the fruit of faith.

Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. Its by or out of faith in which works are produced which makes works the fruit.

A living, active, productive faith in Jesus is required to receive salvation in the first place.

You put the cart before the horse. We are made alive together with Christ FIRST by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:5-8) then created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works (Ephesians 2:10) resulting in a productive faith.

This faith leads to receiving salvation, and the actions required in this faith are few and specific.

Through bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics, you teach salvation by faith + works. Let the boasting begin.

So it is your argument with God, not mine. He is the one who said that actions are the soul of faith, the thing without which faith is dead and meaningless (James 2:26). Our changed life is the life blood of salvation, not of faith.

That is your eisegesis. Our changed life is the fruit of salvation but not the root of it. Your cart before the horse confusion culminates in works righteousness.

Again, this is not Biblical. We do not have faith at all unless we take actions of obedience to Jesus' commands.

Taking actions of obedience to Jesus' commands after we have been saved through faith demonstrates that we have come to know Him (1 John 2:3) and do have authentic faith.

Actions do not "follow" faith, they are an integral part of it without which it is not real or alive.

Actions/works are not the intrinsic nature or core principle that defines what faith fundamentally is. It takes a living faith to produce works just like it takes a living tree to produce fruit. Something that is dead cannot produce anything.

Faith does not equal belief. Faith equals a complete trust, throwing our life, soul, future, and all we have on Jesus' promise to save us.

Faith and belief (the right kind of belief) are used interchangeably as the instrumental means by which we obtain salvation. (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43: 13:39; 16:31; Romans 3:24-26; 4:5; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9 etc..).

Literally, this is accomplished through surrendering to Him in water baptism.

False. Water baptism is a good work which follows salvation through belief/faith. (Acts 10:43-47)

You can argue till you're blue in the face, but it won't change what Scripture says. I pray you come to realize that before it is too late.

Oh the IRONY. I am praying for you.

 

[mailmandan]

mailmandan, please go teach your dog algebra. You'll get better results and your dog won't condemn you to hell, as Doug did.

You may be right about my dog and Doug is not my infallible judge. Only God is.

 

[mailmandan]

You are right, they are not the origin of faith. Good works are a part of faith

Oxymoron. Faith results in good works appropriate to faith yet the good works are not the very essence of faith. Faith is the root of salvation and good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of faith.

just as Christ is a part of God.

Jesus is God. (John 1:1-3, 14)

Wrong. Trusting in Jesus is not the origin of faith. The Gospel of Jesus is the origin of faith (Rom 10:17).

Believing the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) is the origin of saving faith in Christ. (Romans 1:16)

Hearing the Word does precede faith, but repentance is an act of faith (Acts 3:19).

Repentance is a change of mind which precedes believe him/believe the gospel/faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21)

I have never said that they were two separate steps separated chronologically in any way. That is you reading your own thoughts into what I write, just as you do into Scripture (eisegesis).

I've heard folks in the CoC say that one can believe/have faith but refuse to confess and not be saved. Are you the exception? I actually prefer exegesis over eisegesis.

Yes, the instant someone believes in who Jesus is they should repent of their sins, confess Jesus as their Lord, and be baptized into Christ. This is what is demonstrated all through the NT Scripture. There is ALWAYS an urgency on the part of the teacher to bring the student into Christ through baptism.

Believe in who Jesus is AND trust in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation. You left out the latter which is the new direction of the change of mind in repentance.

Urgency in baptism? So urgent that Jesus did not mention baptism in John 3:18 when Jesus drew the line in the sand on who will and won't be condemned? So urgent that there are numerous passages of scripture which make it clear that man is saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications"? (John 1:12; 3:16; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-26; 4:5-6; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Philippians 3:9; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Spirit baptism places believers into the body of Christ. (1 Corinthians 12:13) Water baptism is in regard to identification.

Please show me the Scripture where baptism is equated with feeding the poor (or any other "good work").

So, water baptism is not a good work according to you? Matthew 3:13-15 gives a description by Jesus' baptism in which John initially resists, recognizing Jesus as the Messiah, but Jesus insists on being baptized to "fulfill all righteousness". So, baptism is a "work of righteousness" which is a good work, yet we are not saved by works of righteousness.. (Titus 3:5)

Baptism is the point at which we are joined with Christ in death and resurrection (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14).

False. That is signified but not procured in water baptism.

Sure I have. Those passages state that faith, not intellectual assent, is required for salvation. And this agrees with Rom 10:9-10 which says that an action of faith (confession) results in salvation being received,

Faith involves trust and reliance and not mere intellectual assent. Confession is a confirmation of faith and not a work for salvation. According to the CoC 5 step plan of salvation, one is not saved until after they have received water baptism, and confession precedes water baptism in their list of steps. So how can confession be made unto salvation, if one still needs to be water baptized afterwards, in order to be saved? Let's see you get out of that one houdini.

which agrees with Acts 3:19 which says that an action of faith (repentance) results in receiving salvation, which agrees with Acts 2:38 which says that two actions of faith (repentance and water baptism) result in receiving salvation.

Bad semantics. Flawed hermeneutics. In Acts 2:38, for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Remember, ALL Scripture must be true at the same time. Just because one verse (or even 419 verses) only mention "belief" in relation to salvation, that does not negate the other passages that state a specific action is necessary.

That's why it's critical to interpret scripture in context and properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine.

Eph 2:5-9 does not define faith. But Heb 11:1 and James 2:14-26 do define faith, and they both indicate that action is an integral part of what faith is, and that without action there is no faith.

Hebrews 11:1 defines faith. In James 2:14-26, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works as you believe. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

There is nothing there that contradicts what I have said. Jesus purchased salvation for mankind. He didn't have to. He didn't have a gun to His head forcing Him to submit. He didn't owe us salvation. He went to the cross of His own free will, and chose to give His life for us. That is what is "not of ourselves". That is the "gift of God".

Salvation is not of ourselves but is the gift of God. Yet you still want to contribute to salvation and make it of yourself, by works (at least in part).

But faith REQUIRES action. If there is no action then there is no faith; it just doesn't exist.

Saving faith in Christ exists beginning at its origin (Ephesians 2:5-8) and the action/good works follow. (Ephesians 2:10) Now if someone says/claims they have faith but produce no works afterwards then they demonstrate that they have a bare profession of faith (James 2:14) and not genuine faith.

So when it says that God's grace comes to us "through faith", that means that it comes to us through the actions that God ordained as resulting in us receiving salvation.

God's grace (unmerited favor) is His part and through faith is our part. There is nothing in Ephesians 2:8-10 about actions/good works preceding salvation. You remain confused.

Just as Naaman only received healing after he dipped in Jordan the seventh time, we too must take obedient action to receive God's gift.

Naaman received healing from leprosy (and not the gift of eternal life) after he dipped in Jordan the seventh time.

Indeed good works do follow salvation. But repentance, confession, and baptism are not "good works".

Baptism is a work of righteousness. (Matthew 3:13-15) Repentance is a change of mind which precedes faith. (Acts 20:21) Water baptism is a good work which "follows" saving belief/faith in Christ. (Acts 10:43-47)

I serve God, and He does not have an "Achilles' heel".

Your false gospel has an Achilles heel.

He is the one who established what is required to receive His gift, not me. I am simply telling you what He said.

You telling me what He said filtered through your eisegesis.

You would have told Naaman that he didn't really have to dip in Jordan to be healed. You would have told him to just believe in the prophet and he would be healed regardless of what the prophet told him. But that would have left him suffering in his leprosy.

I would have told Naaman to dip in Jordan to be healed for leprosy.

You cannot have faith without works.

Faith has an origin and works do follow, but they are not instantaneous the very moment that we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. You cannot be God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works without faith.

The two are united like the two sides of a coin. You cannot have one without the other. You do not get one side of a coin, and then later the other side shows up. You either have both side, or you have nothing.

That's true with repentance and faith, but not with faith and works. You can have faith, but not instantaneously have good works the very moment you are saved through faith. The good works do follow though.

Bad analogy. Faith is not a tree. In this case it is more like a coin as mentioned above.

I never said that faith is a tree. In Jesus' analogy a good tree represents a believer and the good fruit that it bears represents good works (Matthew 7:17) so my analogy is not bad. Faith is the root of salvation and good works are the fruit. The life in a tree flows from the root and produces the fruit. The life in our faith flows for what our faith is rooted in (Jesus Christ) and produces fruit/good works. Great analogy!

No boasting at all.

Salvation by faith + works = boasting (at least in part). You can't have it both ways.

Read, really study Luke 17:7-10. There is no boasting in doing what was commanded by the Master.

Doing what is commanded for the wrong reasons and with the wrong motivation, culminating in salvation by works, creates room for boasting. Lord, Lord, didn't 'WE.'

There is only obediently doing what He says, and being thankful that He keeps His promises.

Doing what He says for the right purpose or doing what your church says for the wrong purpose?

 

[Doug Brents]

So, we don't believe in our heart that God has raised Him from the dead and it's not with the heart that one believes unto righteousness? Romans 10:9,10 says otherwise. What is believed in our heart is confirmed with our mouth.

Certainly we do, but that is not all that the verse says. I love how you only read the parts of Scripture that agree with what you already believe, and ignore the rest of it. It is so refreshing to see you expose your true beliefs.

Roman Catholics also try to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works and cannot seem to grasp a deeper faith from the heart that trusts in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

You keep harping on the "all sufficiency" of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. And you are right, it is all sufficient for salvation. But what you fail you recognize is what man must DO in order to RECEIVE salvation. And it is NOT just a heart/mind thought that is required.

Here is a statement below in blue that a Roman Catholic once made to me.

We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc..

That statement in blue is absolutely false. Roman Catholics basically teach that we are saved by faith "infused" with works and then those works become meritorious in receiving salvation.

Most of that statement is false, you are correct. But parts of it are true. Faith is not simply "believing (intellectual assent). But we have been over this and you think that it is.

Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, if someone asked me what faith is, I would have basically said, faith "is" baptism, faith "is" multiple acts of obedience, faith "is" works, which is incorrect.

Faith is the substance/certainty/assurance of things hoped for, the evidence/conviction/proof of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1)

Faith results in action and if no action is ever produced then such a person would demonstrate they have a bare profession of faith and not genuine faith.

You almost have it, dan; you're almost there. Faith is indeed the evidence of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for. It is not just thoughts. There is no proof, no substance, no evidence in thoughts. We are not saved by mere thoughts. We don't receive salvation just because we had a thought. Faith does not exist in a thought. Faith exists when the thought is joined to an action. When there is substance, evidence, proof of the thought, that is when you have faith.

Works-salvationists confuse what Jesus commands us to do in order to become saved with what Jesus commands us to do after we have been saved. That error culminates in works salvation.

I have asked you before, please list all of the verses that state actions we must take before salvation is received. Study hard, and give it a try. List every verse that says something leads to or results in receiving salvation, forgiveness, justification, etc.

Jesus is God. (John 1:1-3, 14)

Jesus is not the Father, nor is Jesus the Spirit.

Believing the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) is the origin of saving faith in Christ. (Romans 1:16)

There is no trust if there is no action (James 2:20, 22, 24, 26).

Repentance is a change of mind which precedes believe him/believe the gospel/faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21)

Repentance is indeed a change of mind as well as a change in behaviors. If there is no change in behavior, then the change of mind was not real. Again, no action, no repentance, no faith. Repentance does not precede faith, it is an act of faith.

I've heard folks in the CoC say that one can believe/have faith but refuse to confess and not be saved. Are you the exception? I actually prefer exegesis over eisegesis.

You can indeed "believe" yet not have faith, not confess, and not be saved. This is proven in John 12:42-43.

Believe in who Jesus is AND trust in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation. You left out the latter which is the new direction of the change of mind in repentance.

If someone doesn't repent, doesn't confess Him, and doesn't receive baptism, then they really don't trust Him for salvation. Faith is trust, so they don't really have faith.

Urgency in baptism? So urgent that Jesus did not mention baptism in John 3:18 when Jesus drew the line in the sand on who will and won't be condemned? So urgent that there are numerous passages of scripture which make it clear that man is saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications"? (John 1:12; 3:16; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-26; 4:5-6; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Philippians 3:9; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Spirit baptism places believers into the body of Christ. (1 Corinthians 12:13) Water baptism is in regard to identification.

Spirit baptism occurs DURING water baptism (1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14). And those passages that only mention "belief" actually use the word that means faith, which ties in with it all the passages that mention specific actions of faith that result in receiving salvation.

So, water baptism is not a good work according to you? Matthew 3:13-15 gives a description by Jesus' baptism in which John initially resists, recognizing Jesus as the Messiah, but Jesus insists on being baptized to "fulfill all righteousness". So, baptism is a "work of righteousness" which is a good work, yet we are not saved by works of righteousness.. (Titus 3:5)

No, water baptism is not a "good work". Yes, Jesus received John's baptism to fulfill all righteousness. And when He came up out of the water, He was commissioned by the Father to begin His ministry. No, baptism is not a "work of righteousness". It is an act of faith in God.

False. That is signified but not procured in water baptism.

Already demonstrated that is a false claim. Read Scripture more thoroughly.

Faith involves trust and reliance and not mere intellectual assent. Confession is a confirmation of faith and not a work for salvation. According to the CoC 5 step plan of salvation, one is not saved until after they have received water baptism, and confession precedes water baptism in their list of steps. So how can confession be made unto salvation, if one still needs to be water baptized afterwards, in order to be saved? Let's see you get out of that one houdini.

Bad semantics. Flawed hermeneutics. In Acts 2:38, for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first.

That is pure eisegesis. There is no grammatical separation, in English or in Greek, between "repent" and "be baptized" and their relationship with "for the remission of sins". NONE.

Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

There is no "parenthetical" anything in Acts 2:38.

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

We have been through this so many times. There would have been no need for them to receive water baptism if they were saved when the Spirit fell on them. They did not receive forgiveness when the Spirit fell on them. We are told exactly what they received, "tongues and praise", just as the Apostles did on Pentecost.

*So, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

While that may satisfy your preconceived notions (eisegesis), it does not perfectly harmonize ALL Scripture.
That ignores the fact that 1 Pet 3:21 says that it is in baptism (in water) that we are saved, not in repentance.
It ignores Rom 6:1-7 that says that it is in baptism that we die with Christ and are resurrected by the Spirit with Him.
It ignores Col 2:11-14 that is very similar to Rom 6:1-7.
It ignores John 3:5 which says that no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born again of water and the Spirit.
It ignores so much that it proves faulty in its "harmony".

That's why it's critical to interpret scripture in context and properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine.

I 100% agree with that. We must consider ALL Scripture, not just the ones that seem to fit with your preconceptions.

Hebrews 11:1 defines faith. In James 2:14-26, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works as you believe. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

If there is no action then there isn't any faith, that is what he is saying. And no, he does not say we are saved "by" our works. He says we are saved "through" our works; through faith. We are not saved by faith ONLY, but by an active faith that includes works.

James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Any way you can twist the verse to fit your preconceptions; I got it. And you blame me of eisegesis.

Salvation is not of ourselves but is the gift of God. Yet you still want to contribute to salvation and make it of yourself, by works (at least in part).

Not even a little bit. But you can't see the truth because you are so steeped in trying to accuse me of false teaching.

Saving faith in Christ exists beginning at its origin (Ephesians 2:5-8) and the action/good works follow.

The origin of faith does not occur until there is both a mental belief and physical action along with it. The body God made for man was not "alive" until God breathed the spirit into it, and then it became a living being. The mental thoughts you call faith are not alive until actions are included with them. Then you have a living faith.

(Ephesians 2:10) Now if someone says/claims they have faith but produce no works afterwards then they demonstrate that they have a bare profession of faith (James 2:14) and not genuine faith.

That is a negative proof. They can say all day long that they have faith, but if there is no action then you can tell they don't really have faith. But to tell that they really do have faith, they must demonstrate it through their actions. You claim to trust in God, but until you obey Him in repentance, confess Him as Lord, and are baptized into Him, your faith doesn't really exist.

God's grace (unmerited favor) is His part and through faith is our part. There is nothing in Ephesians 2:8-10 about actions/good works preceding salvation. You remain confused.

Yes, through faith is our part. And that is the living, active faith the James speaks of.

Naaman received healing from leprosy (and not the gift of eternal life) after he dipped in Jordan the seventh time.

SMH That is what I said. He received the GIFT of healing, just as we receive the GIFT of salvation.

I would have told Naaman to dip in Jordan to be healed for leprosy.

Yet you tell everyone else to ignore what God told us to do to receive His gift of salvation? Hmmm?

 

[mailmandan]

Certainly, we do, but that is not all that the verse says.

First you said - "faith is not something you can do in your head/heart" yet now you are back peddling and saying we certainly do. So, which is it?

I love how you only read the parts of Scripture that agree with what you already believe and ignore the rest of it. It is so refreshing to see you expose your true beliefs.

Oh, the irony. My true beliefs are in full agreement with Romans 10:8-10. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER and confessing and believing here are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Notice the reverse order from verse 9-10: that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing that Jesus is Lord. (1 Corinthians 12:3) This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep, personal conviction from the heart that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. Confirmation of faith and not a work for salvation. So, simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving "lip service" to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

You keep harping on the "all sufficiency" of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. And you are right; it is all sufficient for salvation.

Jesus' death, burial and resurrection is not all sufficient if you must accomplish a check list of works "in addition" to placing your faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation in order to receive salvation. You just cannot seem to grasp that.

But what you fail you recognize is what man must DO in order to RECEIVE salvation. And it is NOT just a heart/mind thought that is required.

Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, (also see Romans 4:5 - his faith is accounted for righteousness) and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. The mouth, then, becomes the means by which one expresses their faith in Christ. Only genuine believers with divine influence by the Holy Spirit can confess with their mouths what has happened in their hearts, expressing their faith in Jesus. Make believers only offer lip service confession. (Matthew 7:22-23)

Most of that statement is false, you are correct. But parts of it are true. Faith is not simply "believing (intellectual assent). But we have been over this and you think that it is.

Faith, belief, trust, reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation goes beyond mere (intellectual assent). If one simply believes that the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ "happened" and that's as far as it goes, then one has mere intellectual assent. Even the demons believe that it "happened." Now if one's faith goes deeper and they not only believe that it "happened" but ALSO trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) then such a person has saving faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ for salvation. See the difference? That is the difference between merely believing in your head and believing in your heart.

You almost have it, dan; you're almost there.

This isn't horseshoes.

Faith is indeed the evidence of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for. It is not just thoughts. There is no proof, no substance, no evidence in thoughts. We are not saved by mere thoughts. We don't receive salvation just because we had a thought. Faith does not exist in a thought. Faith exists when the thought is joined to an action. When there is substance, evidence, proof of the thought, that is when you have faith.

Another example of how folks in the CoC seem to believe that all faith is the same "except for the lack of good works/action" and cannot seem to grasp a deeper faith from the heart that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, which explains why folks in the CoC have so much faith in works. Faith involves a solid conviction and present assurance of a future reality. True faith is not based on wishful thinking but on divine assurance. Faith doesn't need action to exist. Faith needs to exist before it can produce action. You still have the cart before the horse because your faith is in works for salvation and is not in Christ alone.

I have asked you before, please list all of the verses that state actions we must take before salvation is received. Study hard, and give it a try. List every verse that says something leads to or results in receiving salvation, forgiveness, justification, etc.

Faith comes by hearing. (Romans 10:17) Hear and understand that we are sinners who deserve death and acknowledge that we cannot save ourselves and we need a Savior. (Romans 3:23; 6:23) Repent (change our mind) and believe the gospel/place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Acts 3:19; 10:43; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 3:24-26; 4:5-6; 5:1; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9 etc..) Confession of faith is a confirmation of faith (Romans 10:8-10) which is why we will be saved if we confess (the word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart together) and is not a work for salvation after faith. Confession is not simply about reciting those words then checking it off your check list.

Jesus is not the Father, nor is Jesus the Spirit.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit and three distinct persons yet are one in essence/nature. One God in three persons.

There is no trust if there is no action (James 2:20, 22, 24, 26).

If there is no action, then we demonstrate that we have no trust. Action follows true faith and not the other way around.

Repentance is indeed a change of mind as well as a change in behaviors.

Repentance is a change of mind and a change in behaviors is the fruit of repentance. (Matthew 3:8; Acts 26:20) Notice the word "fruit" in Matthew 3:8 and "demonstrate their repentance by their deeds" in Acts 26:20. New mindset, new behaviors.

If there is no change in behavior, then the change of mind was not real.

Exactly yet the change of mind precedes the change in behavior.

Again, no action, no repentance, no faith. Repentance does not precede faith, it is an act of faith.

Repentance is a change of mind which does "precede" faith. (Acts 20:21) Repent (change of mind) -- new direction of that change of mind-- faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Two sides to the same coin. Acts of faith/works would be the fruit of repentance/faith. This could be your turning point Doug.

You can indeed "believe" yet not have faith, not confess, and not be saved. This is proven in John 12:42-43.

So, what is the content of what was believed here? I've heard certain folks in the CoC say the word "believe" here was no different than the belief of Christians in general, yet these folks failed to receive salvation because they did not confess as an additional requirement for salvation. What kind of belief does not confess at all?

If someone doesn't repent, doesn't confess Him, and doesn't receive baptism, then they really don't trust Him for salvation. Faith is trust, so they don't really have faith.

If someone doesn't repent, then they will not believe the gospel and become saved. Confession and baptism would be mute at that point. Yet works salvationists still have "their version" of repentance (moral self-reformation) which they place after their version of faith, (mental assent belief conjoined with works) and they may give lip service confession and may even have been water baptized, trusting in their baptism for salvation instead of trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. So, there are genuine believers and there are make believers.

Spirit baptism occurs DURING water baptism (1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14).

False. Spirit baptism is distinct from water baptism. Don't overlook, not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, in 1 Peter 3:21. In regard to Romans 6:1-7, being buried with Him through baptism into death and being united together in the likeness of His death, in the likeness of His resurrection, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin is signified in water baptism but the reality is found in Spirit baptism. It's the same in Colossians 2:11-14. False religion turns symbols of salvation into the substance. Notice in verse 11 - In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. In Romans 2:29, we read - circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit.

And those passages that only mention "belief" actually use the word that means faith, which ties in with it all the passages that mention specific actions of faith that result in receiving salvation.

Belief/faith is distinct from actions/works which "follow" and are produced "out of" belief/faith. Belief and salvation are established first (Acts 10:43-47) and water baptism "follows." (Acts 10:48)

No, water baptism is not a "good work".

So, do you believe instead that baptism is a bad work or that no work at all is accomplished when one is water baptized?

Yes, Jesus received John's baptism to fulfill all righteousness. And when He came up out of the water, He was commissioned by the Father to begin His ministry. No, baptism is not a "work of righteousness". It is an act of faith in God.

An act of faith in God is a good work/work of righteousness. Just accept the truth.

Already demonstrated that is a false claim. Read Scripture more thoroughly.

A more thorough reading of Scripture exposes your claim to be false.

That is pure eisegesis. There is no grammatical separation, in English or in Greek, between "repent" and "be baptized" and their relationship with "for the remission of sins". NONE.

There is no "parenthetical" anything in Acts 2:38.

Peter omits the parenthesis in Acts 3:19. As Greek scholar AT Robertson stated: Change of number from plural to singular and of person from second to third. This change marks a break in the thought here that the English translation does not preserve. The first thing to do is make a radical and complete change of heart and life. Then let each one be baptized after this change has taken place, and the act of baptism be performed “in the name of Jesus Christ” (εν τωι ονοματι Ιησου Χριστου — en tōi onomati Iēsou Christou).

Greek scholar A. T. Robertson authored Word Pictures in the New Testament. In his comments on Acts 2:38 he said, - “One will decide the use here according as he believes that baptism is essential to the remission of sins or not. "My view is decidedly against the idea that Peter, Paul, or any one in the New Testament taught baptism as essential to the remission of sins or the means of securing such remission. So I understand Peter to be urging baptism on each of them who had already turned (repented) and for it to be done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they had already received.” The illustrations of both usages are numerous in the N.T. and the Koin, generally (Robertson, Grammar, page 592).

Acts 2 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Bottom line: The only conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that belief/faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18) *Perfect Harmony*

We have been through this so many times. There would have been no need for them to receive water baptism if they were saved when the Spirit fell on them. They did not receive forgiveness when the Spirit fell on them. We are told exactly what they received, "tongues and praise", just as the Apostles did on Pentecost.

Talk about pure eisegesis and blatant dishonesty. The Spirit did more than simply fall on them and merely cause them to receive tongues and praise. They received the gift of the Holy Spirit prior to receiving water baptism. Acts 10:43 - Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit (spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” To reject this crystal-clear truth is to be blatantly dishonest!

When referring back on this event, in Acts 11:17, we read - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) who was I that I could withstand God?” 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life.” This is crystal clear truth Doug, but you blatantly refuse to see it for the sake of your biased church doctrine.

While that may satisfy your preconceived notions (eisegesis), it does not perfectly harmonize ALL Scripture.

It actually does perfectly harmonize with ALL Scripture. You simply reject the truth for your preconceived notions (eisegesis).

That ignores the fact that 1 Pet 3:21 says that it is in baptism (in water) that we are saved, not in repentance.

Here is what you ignore. In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

Luke 24:47 - and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
*What happened to baptism? Faith is already implied or assumed. Two sides to the same coin. (Acts 20:21)

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 5:31 - Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
*What happened to baptism?

Acts 11:18 - When they heard these things, they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life.” In verse 17, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ already implied or assumed. *Hermeneutics.

It ignores Rom 6:1-7 that says that it is in baptism that we die with Christ and are resurrected by the Spirit with Him. It ignores Col 2:11-14 that is very similar to Rom 6:1-7.

In Romans 6:1-7, you ignore that being buried with Him through baptism into death and being united together in the likeness of His death, in the likeness of His resurrection, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin is signified in water baptism but the reality is found in Spirit baptism.

It's the same in Colossians 2:11-14. Notice in verse 11 - In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. In Romans 2:29, we read - circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit.

It ignores John 3:5 which says that no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born again of water and the Spirit.

In John 3:5, Jesus mentions nothing about baptism. That is your eisegesis. In the very next chapter, Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. Notice in John 4:14 that Jesus said - but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. Did you see that? Please don't tell me you missed this! Jesus connects this water with receiving everlasting life. Also, in 1 Corinthians 12:13 (in regard to Spirit baptism) we see ..drink into one Spirit.

If "water" is defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. The word "water" is also used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, and we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the Word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the washing of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

*So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 (in order to accommodate your biased church doctrine) simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

It ignores so much that it proves faulty in its "harmony".

You have to ignore a lot of scripture in order to accommodate your perverted water gospel. I will stick with proper Biblical hermeneutics, and I will also continue to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16)

I 100% agree with that. We must consider ALL Scripture, not just the ones that seem to fit with your preconceptions.

You agree in theory but not in application.

If there is no action then there isn't any faith, that is what he is saying. And no, he does not say we are saved "by" our works. He says we are saved "through" our works; through faith. We are not saved by faith ONLY, but by an active faith that includes works.

Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root. "Not saved by works but saved through our works through faith" is an OXYMORON. Faith only per James is a bare profession of faith. In James 2:14 we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! You still just don't get it and there is a reason for that.

Any way you can twist the verse to fit your preconceptions; I got it. And you blame me of eisegesis.

I don't need to twist anything. The fact remains that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) *Perfect Harmony* So much for your flawed hermeneutics that culminates in works salvation.

Not even a little bit. But you can't see the truth because you are so steeped in trying to accuse me of false teaching.

You can't see the truth because you are spiritually discerned.

The origin of faith does not occur until there is both a mental belief and physical action along with it.

There it is. Mental assent belief "conjoined" with works salvation. Roman Catholics teach mental assent belief "infused" with works salvation. You still cannot grasp a deeper belief/faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (John 3:18; Acts 10:43; Romans 1:16; 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9) This explains why you have so much faith in works/self-righteousness. The origin of faith (saving faith) begins at the very moment we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Ephesians 2:5-9) We are then made together with Christ and created in Christ Jesus unto good works. (Ephesians 2:10) The physical actions "follow" having been saved through faith, yet you continue to turn physical action which "follows" salvation through faith into a prerequisite for salvation/salvation by works. When are you going to wake up?

The body God made for man was not "alive" until God breathed the spirit into it, and then it became a living being. The mental thoughts you call faith are not alive until actions are included with them. Then you have a living faith.

The actions only demonstrate that our faith is alive. As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works, rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

That is a negative proof. They can say all day long that they have faith, but if there is no action then you can tell they don't really have faith. But to tell that they really do have faith, they must demonstrate it through their actions.

I have said all along that faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. Authentic faith is demonstrated by works. No works at all demonstrate a bare profession of faith. (James 2:14)

You claim to trust in God, but until you obey Him in repentance, confess Him as Lord, and are baptized into Him, your faith doesn't really exist.

My faith (saving faith in Christ) existed the moment that I placed my faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation several years ago on a late Saturday night. I repented (changed my mind) just before I placed my faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Then immediately I raised my hands in the air, verbally praising Jesus as Lord and thanking Him for saving me. Praise God! My faith existed prior to receiving water baptism on Sunday morning.

Yes, through faith is our part. And that is the living, active faith the James speaks of.

You can't see faith without seeing works. You don't even seem to make a distinction between faith and works. The active part is the result of a living faith. Genuine faith is alive in Christ.

SMH That is what I said. He received the GIFT of healing, just as we receive the GIFT of salvation.

Not the same thing. Naaman received healing from leprosy, which was a blessing, but he did not receive the gift of eternal life. Faulty analogy.

Yet you tell everyone else to ignore what God told us to do to receive His gift of salvation? Hmmm?

I don't tell anyone to ignore what God told us to do to receive His gift of salvation. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

You tell everyone that faith in Jesus Christ is "insufficient" to save (and that we must add our works to salvation through faith in Christ in order to help Christ save us) which equates to the object of our faith (death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ) being insufficient to save. Hmmm?