James' Teaching On Justification: Before Men Or Before God?

[Eternally-Grateful]

I won't be expecting an apology since you have no integrity.

I have no integrity but you say things like this

Name calling? Give scripture that it is wrong to call out a person for what they are?
Name calling is only sinful when the intent is for the wrong reasons.
Driven by pride.
Driven by hatred.
Mentioned to insult by mocking, making fun of someone to hurt them.


Blind guides(Dan and ET)


Dan and ET are slanderers, libelous. Defamation.
Communicating false lies to hurt a persons good reputation.



Hindrance.
Water downed teaching.
People want comfort not truth, John 17:17.
Tolerating false teaching.
- but I have this against you, that you tolerate that women Jezebel who calls herself a prophetess and teaching and seducing my servants, Revelation 2:20

Jesus rebukes a church for tolerating water down soft preaching,

it appears Dan and EG (My name is not ET) has really gotten under your skin. we have exposed YOUR SLANDER, YOUR LIES< YOUR DEFAMATION against many, And your false truths. not only against us, but all of those who believe that our faith is in GOD for salvation (not in self) and exposed your works based pharisee gospel, and you pumping your chest. while watering down the law. and making it appear you are righteous when you are not.

Keep it up ..

again, You make it far to easy to expose you

 

[mailmandan]

Anyone is welcome. I am not in the debate....

James. 2 :14-26

Faith and Works

14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,

16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

What kind of faith is that? James 2:14 - can that faith save him? Bare profession of faith and not genuine faith. We show our faith by our works. Faith is the root of salvation (Ephesians 2:5-8) and works are the fruit. (Ephesians 2:10) No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. Hence, dead faith, being by itself which is a spurious faith.

19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

Here we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance are in Satan as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Now "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simple!

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

Notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous.

22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

Faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.

The scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) many years before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

Greek word for justified "dikaioo" means:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

You see that a man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works and not by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone "barren of works." (James 2:14) *Fits the context.

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. *Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds.

25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs. (James 2:18)

26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

The comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

So, to sum it up: Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[Doug Brents]

The words "resulting in" are not in the Greek. It's literally "to righteousness" and "to salvation". You believe it means "resulting in". I believe it means "pointing to", or affirming salvation and righteousness.

This is the same kind of usage you see in Acts 2:38. "Eis" (the Greek word meaning "for" or "to") could mean "in order to receive" but it could also mean "because you have received". It is clear from the comparison with Acts 3:19 that in Acts 2:38 "eis" means "n order to receive" and refers to both repentance and baptism. In Rom 10:9-10 it means the same thing: "in order to receive".

And yes, I DO understand basic English. No I do NOT understand basic Greek. Do you? If you do, then you know that "resulting in" is NOT in the Greek, so why are you being dishonest, in telling us that it is?

Because that is the meaning of the phraseology. Doing this (confess Jesus as Lord) lead to/results in that (receiving salvation).

The flood was just a symbol? Tell that to the multiplied billions who drowned in it. It is baptism that is the symbol. Apparently you don't know basic English.

New International Version
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also
New King James Version
There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism
NASB 1995
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you
International Standard Version
Baptism, which is symbolized by that water, now saves you also.
It is the waters of the Flood that are the symbol pointing to baptism.

It is in baptism that the Holy Spirit takes action to save us by the power of Jesus' blood? Tell that to Cornelius and his family and friends. The Holy Spirit "took action" and saved them BEFORE they were baptized.

No, He gave them the gift of tongues and praise, as a message to the Jews that the Gentiles were acceptable to God to be brought into the Church. They were not saved when He fell on them.

Yes, both repentance and baptism are required. Repentance, in order to be saved and baptism after one is saved.

That is not what Acts 2:38 says. There is NO separation either punctually, grammatically, or in any other way between repentance and baptism in their relation to "eis" in that verse.

Who's eliminating water? Not me. Who's ignoring the context ? You are by inserting baptism in John 3:5, but it's not there. The topic that Nicodemus brought up was natural birth. Jesus, staying with that understanding said that both natural birth - born of water - and spiritual birth - born of the Spirit - are required.

Both water and the Spirit relate to REbirth. Natural birth has nothing to do with it. Yes, Nicodemus brought up natural birth, but Jesus was not talking about natural birth. He was talking about spiritual rebirth. Compare John 3:3 and John 3:5.

 

[Titus]

Unlike you I DO HAVE INTEGRITY. and I will Humbly apologize I was not more specific..

Thanks.
But unfortunately you are a compulsive liar. Once you apologize for all the lies you continue to tell about me. Then you will begin to develop integrity.
I hope you do.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Thanks.
But unfortunately you are a compulsive liar. Once you apologize for all the lies you continue to tell about me. Then you will begin to develop integrity.
I hope you do.

Show one lie I have said against you. with evidenciary proof.

(Ie. me saying you are trying to earn salvation is not a lie. because you prove I am right by continuing to attempt to push works. then claiming i deny works - ie. you slander me, in trying to defend yourself)

 

[Titus]

yet genuine faith is evidenced by works

Dan admits genuine faith has obedient works.
Yet he teaches we are saved by faith that has no works.
This is illogical.
If genuine faith has works then faith alone is not genuine faith.

Also notice when Dan teaches on James chapter 2.
He never quotes James but puts his own commentary on what he thinks James is saying.
Dan cannot let James speak for himself because James never teaches faith alone saves.
Just the opposite. Dan says the opposite of James.
Dan is perverting James' teaching putting words in his mouth.

James 2:24,
- ye see then how by works a man is justified and NOT by faith alone

Not once in all of James epistle does he teach faith alone is good.

According to James it is dead faith that cannot save anyone.

James 2:17,
- even so faith if it hath not works is dead being alone

James makes himself clear that Abraham's faith that justified him was perfected with works of obedience. Dan wants to be saved in disobedience. Faith alone according to James is a faith that does not obey God.

James 2:19,
Thou believest there is one God, thou doest well, the devils also believe and tremble

James 2:21-24,
- was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered his son Isaac upon the altar
Seest thou how by faith wrought + with his works and by works was faith made perfect
- and the scripture was fulfilled(Genesis 15:6) which saith, Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness and he was called the friend of God
Ye see then how that by works a man(Abraham) is justified and not by faith alone

James so clearly teaches the scriptures were fulfilled by Abraham being justified, made righteous by God with what kind of faith?
Abraham's faith was an obedient faith.
And James says that's the faith that justified Abraham.
To claim James is teaching the Abraham was justified by faith alone is twisting the words of James and any honest person can see this.

James 2:25-26,
- likewise also was Rahab the harlot justified by works when she had received the messengers and had sent them on their way
- for as the body(physical body) without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also

Verse 26 is the conclusion to James' question in verse 14.
James asks can faith alone save us? His conclusion is obvious.
It is dead, in the Greek the word dead means spiritually dead!!!!

James 2:14,
- what doth it profit my brethren though a man say he hath faith and have not works
can faith save him

Dan refuses to admit the context is about what kind of faith saves.
Dan claims the context is what kind of faith doesn't save but justifies in mens eyes.
Dan wants everyone to believe that James already teaches faith alone saves but the big problem with that is you must believe that based upon presupposition not evidence.
The evidence overwhelming points to James being against faith alone.
That is making up your own context which is a pretext.

 

[Titus]

Show one lie I have said against you. with evidenciary proof.

(Ie. me saying you are trying to earn salvation is not a lie. because you prove I am right by continuing to attempt to push works. then claiming i deny works - ie. you slander me, in trying to defend yourself)

The burden of proof is on you.
You make the claim, you must give the evidence.
Show where I teach meritorious works are required to be saved.
What you will do as you have done repeatedly.
You will take works of obedience, James 2:24.
And teach they are works of merit, Ephesians 2:8-9.
Which not only is lying about what I teach but lying about what Gods word teaches of the different kinds of works being taught in the new testament by James and Paul.

Listen carefully.
It is an impossibility to earn salvation by any kind of works period.

That's my doctrine.
Now you will lie about me and say I teach you can earn your salvation.

 

[Titus]

I have no integrity but you say things like this

it appears Dan and EG (My name is not ET) has really gotten under your skin. we have exposed YOUR SLANDER, YOUR LIES< YOUR DEFAMATION against many, And your false truths. not only against us, but all of those who believe that our faith is in GOD for salvation (not in self) and exposed your works based pharisee gospel, and you pumping your chest. while watering down the law. and making it appear you are righteous when you are not.

Keep it up ..

again, You make it far to easy to expose you

I suggest you learn the definition of defamation.
It is not defamation if it is true.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Dan admits genuine faith has obedient works.
Yet he teaches we are saved by faith that has no works.
This is illogical.
If genuine faith has works then faith alone is not genuine faith.

see, this is how you bear false witness against grace believers.

Dan and all of us confess that at the moment we in faith turn to Christ and cry out for his mercy (receive him - John 1: 12) we are saved

The result of this salvation, is we will produce works..

Unlike you. who claims we must work BEFORE we are saved..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The burden of proof is on you.
You make the claim, you must give the evidence.
Show where I teach meritorious works are required to be saved.
What you will do as you have done repeatedly.

dude we have done this so many times we have lost count

are you now denying one must work if they are to be saved?

Your answer will prove if I am right or wrong

You will take works of obedience, James 2:24.
And teach they are works of merit, Ephesians 2:8-9.

No. I take works of obedience of evidence one is not a make believer, but a true believer.

But they do not merit salvation (salvation is not based on wither they do works or not)

But you say they are required correct?

(if you say they are required. YOU make them works of merit. NOT ME..

Which not only is lying about what I teach but lying about what Gods word teaches of the different kinds of works being taught in the new testament by James and Paul.

once again,

if you are working to get saved, stay saved, or keep from losing salvation. then your works are self focused. your doing them to earn something.

Righteous works, expect nothing in return.. we do them out of gratitude and love.

You teach merited works. not righteous works. then attack us of denying works..

again, practice what you preach

Listen carefully.
It is an impossibility to earn salvation by any kind of works period.

Then when you are saved, YOU ARE SAVED

1. Before you do any work - including the work of water baptism
2. No matter how many works you do

and your salvation is eternal

if you do not believe this, then you do not practice what you preach..

That's my doctrine.

No its not you have decieved yourself

Now you will lie about me and say I teach you can earn your salvation.

You just in this very post taught myself and everyonw that you are tyring to earn your salvation.

then deny it

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I suggest you learn the definition of defamation.
It is not defamation if it is true.

Defamation is the act of making false statements about someone that harm their reputation. It encompasses both libel (written defamation) and slander (oral defamation). To be considered defamation, the statement must be false, published to a third party, and cause harm to the subject's reputation.

You can not hurt my reputation.. I could care less what you think. However. I know you try to slander or Libel myself and others to take the focus off of you (we call that trying to blame shift)

But you defame Christ every day. THAT I would be more worried about if I were you

 

[Titus]

see, this is how you bear false witness against grace believers.

Dan and all of us confess that at the moment we in faith turn to Christ and cry out for his mercy (receive him - John 1: 12) we are saved

The result of this salvation, is we will produce works..

Unlike you. who claims we must work BEFORE we are saved

I literally taught your faith.
Are you denying that faith alone(apart from obedient works) save?

Its ridiculous for you to accuse me of wrong doing when I taught exactly what you teach, salvation by faith alone.

You don't like being shown the illogical error in your theology so you make up false accusations against me.

Answer my question: Are you saved without any work of obedience? By belief alone?

 

[Titus]

No. I take works of obedience of evidence one is not a make believer, but a true believer.

But they do not merit salvation (salvation is not based on wither they do works or not)

But you say they are required correct?

(if you say they are required. YOU make them works of merit. NOT ME.

More illogical reasoning.
It's not my fault if you reason things out in your mind to a false premise.

There is no truth that obedience to God magically transforms into meriting when obedience is required to be saved.

Obedient works cannot turn into merit.
Belief is a work of obedience because it is commanded, 1John 3:23-24.

Therefore it is logically impossible for works of obedience to magically transform into merit in salvation.
It stays as an act of obedience to Gods commandments before salvation and after salvation.

This is where you lie compulsively.
You refuse to answer the question, does obeying Gods commandment to believe result in a good work done?

Your inability to think rationally occurs when someone has been indoctrinated into a belief system that is irrational.
That's why you cannot reason out simple questions or answer them with honesty.
Your religion forces you into making illogical conclusions.
Then when I point out the logical fallacies in your doctrine, you being blind think I'm misrepresenting you.

You are so confused you wouldn't know if I'm telling the truth or not.
Until you stop running from my question and answer it honestly YOU WILL CONTINUE TO STAY DECEIVED.

 

[dwight92070]

Romans 10:9-10,
The Greek says confession with the mouth and belief in Jesus leads to righteousness leads to salvation.
Never does the Greek in these verses teach one is saved when he confesses with the mouth or is saved the moment he believes.

Forget about the Greek for a moment.
Think from a logical reading of the context.

Does not Paul give two conditions for being made righteous and being saved?
Yes he does.
Therefore how could salvation be the instant one believes when he will also confess with his mouth?
You see logically one must become a believer before he confesses faith in Christ.
Those two things do not happen simultaneously.
So since one believes first. He cannot instantly be saved the moment he believes because he has yet to confess.
But also, does Paul even teach in chapter 10 that instantly he is saved the moment he confesses?
No because the Greek says unto. This Greek word is eis.

You can look up the definition of the word eis. What you will learn is, this word always in every verse its used means towards, leading to. It is pointing toward a result in the future. Never points backwards to the past. It leads to a goal.

Romans 10:9-10,
- that if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised Him from the dead thou shalt be saved
- for with the heart man believeth unto(eis leads to a result) righteousness
and with the mouth confession is made unto(eis leads to a result) salvation

Notice Paul said nothing about repentance in these two verses. So these two verses alone do not teach the full gospel of salvation.

If you keep reading Paul says whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
This is not confession with the mouth alone.
Calling on the name of the Lord does not occur when one confesses with the mouth.

Paul shows in verse 14 that there is an order by which all these acts take place.
They do not all occur simultaneously.
Notice Paul says the steps of salvation in reverse logical order.
Paul is reasoning backwards from calling on the name of the Lord.
Romans 10:13-14,
- for whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved

- how then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed
- and how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard
- and how shall they  hear without a preacher

1. Call on Him --> leads to salvation.
2. Believe in Him --> must happen before you can truly call on the name of the Lord.
3. Hear of Him --> must happen before you can believe.
4. Preacher sent --> must happen before hearing.

Let's flip to chronological order.
1. A preacher is sent.
2. People hear the message.
3. They believe the message.
4. They call on the name of the Lord, which from Acts 22:16 and Acts 2:21-38 includes baptism.

So Paul clearly is not saying confession and believing instantly saves. It is a process towards calling on the name of the Lord where then salvation is obtained.

Let's learn how folks called on the name of the Lord from other passages.

Acts 2:21-38,
- and it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved

Read the whole chapter.
Eventually they ask Peter how to call on the name of the Lord.
They clearly dont know how because they ask Peter what they need to do.

Acts 2:36-38,
- therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God hath made this same Jesus whom ye have crucified both Lord and Christ,
- now when they heard this they were pricked in their heart(by the sword of the Spirit)
and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles Men and brethrenwhat shall we do

Now listen, Peter is going to teach them how to call upon the name of the Lord,
V. 38,
- Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and ye shal, recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit

That is how one calls on the name of the Lord.
Paul recounts how he called on the name of the Lord when his sins were washed away,
Acts 22:16,
- and now why are you waiting, Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord

Put Gods plan of saving man all together.

Hear, Romans 10:14
Believe, Romans 10:9-10 ; Acts 2:37
Repent, Acts 2:38
Confess, Romans 10:9-10 ; Acts 8:37
Be baptized, Romans 10:13-14 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 22:16

They all occur in a step by step process not simultaneously.
So Romans 10:9-10 cannot be interpreted as instant salvation.

If you're interested I'll prove why your understanding of Cornelius' salvation story is unbiblical.

Regarding "eis", you are greatly mistaken.

You said: "You can look up the definition of the word eis. What you will learn is, this word always in every verse its used means towards, leading to. It is pointing toward a result in the future. Never points backwards to the past. It leads to a goal."

I'm looking at the "eis" in the Strong's right now. Why is it that you and Doug cannot tell us the truth? When you say "eis" ALWAYS IN EVERY VERSE MEANS TOWARDS OR LEADING TO, you are just plain wrong.

In the Strong's it ONLY has TWO meanings: "to" or "into".

But it has ABOUT FORTY different words that "eis" has been translated into - in the NASB version scripture. Here are the 40:

about, against, among, become, before, benefit, bestowed, beyond, bring about, bring, continually, eliminated, end, even, ever, forever, forward, leading, leads, mine, never, next, onto, over, perpetually, reference, regard, relation, respect, result, resulted, resulting, sake, so, throughout, toward, until, view, why

So don't tell me that "this word always in every verse it's used means towards, leading to." That is just NOT TRUE. You also said that it "never points backward to the past. It leads to a goal." This is also false. One of the translations of "eis" is "eliminated", which is PAST TENSE. Another translation of "eis" is "before", which also speaks of the past.

Sure, the words that you and Doug prefer are: towards, leading to, resulting (in), because those words make your doctrine seem to be correct, rather than any of the other 37 words. Fine, that's your choice, but don't tell me that your chosen translated word is the true and actual meaning of "eis", because IT IS NOT.

I prefer to use the ACTUAL STATED MEANING: "to" or "into". THEN, when I or anyone plugs in "to" or "into" into the verse, I (or anyone) must determine what THAT means.

My conclusion, as I have said many times, is that the context given in verse 5 is about a man who "practices righteousness", which only a saved man can do. Paul is comparing a saved man under the Law to a saved man under the New Covenant, which is defined in verses 9 and 10.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I literally taught your faith.
Are you denying that faith alone(apart from obedient works) save?

I am stating a fact.

for it is by grace I have been saved (a completed act) through FAITH.

But it is not of myself. it is a gift of God. not of works lest anyone should boast.

These are paul's words not mine..

Paul THEN stated another fact.

those saved by grace through faith and not of anything they did or did not do (works) are created into a new creature for good works. which they will do.

Works are a result of being saved. not a process one must do to get saved

Its ridiculous for you to accuse me of wrong doing when I taught exactly what you teach, salvation by faith alone.

Thats not your lie. Your lie is we claim we will have no works..

You don't like being shown the illogical error in your theology so you make up false accusations against me.

You have yet to prove any false accusation I have made, again, the more you talk. the more you prove my points

Answer my question: Are you saved without any work of obedience? By belief alone?

For it is by grace I have been saved. - Eph 2
Rom 4: 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness
2 Tim 1: 9 who HAS SAVED US (A COMPLETED ACTION) and called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS , but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE which was GIVEN TO US in Christ Jesus BEFORE TIME BEGAN

Titus 3: 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (GOOD DEEDS) WHICH WE HAVE DONE , but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED US through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE we should become HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE

Rom 11: 6 And IF BY GRACE, THAN IT IS NO LONGER OF WORKS, ; otherwise GRACE IS NO LONGER GRACE.

are we saved the moment we receive Gods grace in faith. or do we have to wait until after we do some works. then maybe we still may not end up saved?

 

[dwight92070]

John 3:1-8 is not the only place where Jesus compares natural childbirth (born of water or born of the flesh) to the new birth (born of the Spirit).

In Luke 7:28 Jesus says: "I say to you, AMONG THOSE BORN OF WOMEN (born of water or born of the flesh) there is no one greater than John; YET HE WHO IS LEAST IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD (born of the Spirit) is greater than he.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

More illogical reasoning.
It's not my fault if you reason things out in your mind to a false premise.

Illogical reasoning

so I come to your church, and I claim I have faith,. but after being at your church for awhile. I have yet to show any works. any evidence that I had faith. I show I am a hearer only but not a doer.

and I had faith and was saved when??

There is no truth that obedience to God magically transforms into meriting when obedience is required to be saved.

then you must believe you are saved before you are water baptized because you had living faith.

and you MUST believe your salvation is secure no matter how many works you may do.

Lasst I heard. you do not believe this

Obedient works cannot turn into merit.

They can if they are done with the reason of trying to merit something.

You are lost on what works of merit mean..

Belief is a work of obedience because it is commanded, 1John 3:23-24.

It is the work of God we believe.

why you continue to take credit for Gods work in your life amazes me.. (then again, you do not trust God. you have shown you still trust God and your works)

Therefore it is logically impossible for works of obedience to magically transform into merit in salvation.

Then why do you preach it?

It stays as an act of obedience to Gods commandments before salvation and after salvation.

if it is before and in order to get saved, they are works of merit
if it is after to stay saved, then they are works of merit.

One day I have confidence you will see this fact..

This is where you lie compulsively.
You refuse to answer the question, does obeying Gods commandment to believe result in a good work done?

It not my work. It is the work of God.

why do youi insist on taking credit for yourself and not giving credit where credit is due?

Jesus said in john 6. it is the work of god we believe. Believe Jesus don't take my word for it. take his

Your inability to think rationally occurs when someone has been indoctrinated into a belief system that is irrational.

Like yours? Your indoctrination in your church?

I just look to the word and make the word agree..

That's why you cannot reason out simple questions or answer them with honesty.

lol. I answered them,

You just can not believe I answered them because your not getting the answer you want.. so again, you are hurting yourself. everyone here has seen my answers to you and dans answers to you

No one says you have to believe our answers or agree. but to lie and say we have not answered.

That is slander.

Your religion forces you into making illogical conclusions.

Actually I have no religion. Your the one who tries to get to God with religion (look at me God)

I fell on my face 50 years ago. and I still do not think I have arrived

Then when I point out the logical fallacies in your doctrine, you being blind think I'm misrepresenting you.

You have yet to point out anything..

You are so confused you wouldn't know if I'm telling the truth or not.

lol.. Your the confused one my friend.

Until you stop running from my question and answer it honestly YOU WILL CONTINUE TO STAY DECEIVED.

I answered

Your are now not only a deciever. but a slanderer..

 

[Doug Brents]

John 3:1-8 is not the only place where Jesus compares natural childbirth (born of water or born of the flesh) to the new birth (born of the Spirit).

In Luke 7:28 Jesus says: "I say to you, AMONG THOSE BORN OF WOMEN (born of water or born of the flesh) there is no one greater than John; YET HE WHO IS LEAST IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD (born of the Spirit) is greater than he.

ROTFLMAO

That is a stretch! John the baptist was born of the Spirit just as David, Moses, Elisha, etc. were in the OT. The Kingdom did not start until after Jesus died and rose again. Since John died long before Jesus did, John was never part of the Kingdom, thus those who are the least in the Kingdom are greater than he.

John is NOT contrasting natural birth to spiritual birth in this passage, smh.