Where exactly does the expert mentioned the term "bad Greek"? In fact, the expert says exactly the opposite when he said that the translators exhibited extreme "attention to the details of the Hebrew language". I can't think of a better language to translate anything to than Greek. Greek is a marvelous and detailed language. Your attempt to denigrate what God clearly elected to be done will not succeed.
Isaiah 53:10 and the LXX
- Thread starter civic
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Johann
Well-known member
brother- see if you can spot this-
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
KJV
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased Hashem to bruise him; He hath put him to suffering; when Thou shalt make his nefesh an asham offering for sin, he (Moshiach) shall see zera [see Psalm 16 and Yn 1:12 OJBC], He shall prolong his yamim (days) and the chefetz Hashem (pleasure, will of Hashem) shall prosper in his [Moshiach's] hand.
OJB
Isa 53:10 Yet YHWHH3068 Conj-w+N-proper-ms Yah·weh וַיהוָ֞ה it pleasedH2654 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-3ms ḥā·p̄êṣ חָפֵ֤ץ to bruise HimH1792 H8763 V-Piel-Inf+3ms dak·kə·’ōw דַּכְּאוֹ֙ He has put [Him] to grief;H2470 H8689 V-Hifil-Perf-3ms he·ḥĕ·lî הֶֽחֱלִ֔י whenH518 Conj ’im- אִם־ You makeH7760 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3fs tā·śîm תָּשִׂ֤ים an offering for sin,H817 N-ms ’ā·šām אָשָׁם֙ N1 His soulH5315 N-fsc+3ms nap̄·šōw נַפְשׁ֔וֹ He shall seeH7200 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3ms yir·’eh יִרְאֶ֥ה [His] seed,H2233 N-ms ze·ra‘
Isa 53:10 The Lord also is pleased to purge him from his stroke. If ye can give an offering for sin, your soul shall see a long-lived seed:
Brenton
Isa 53:10 AndG2532 the LORD G2962 willedG1014 to cleanseG2511 himG1473 of theG3588 beating.G4127 IfG1437 you should offerG1325 forG4012 a sin offering G266 the thing G3588 for your life,G5590 G1473 he shall seeG3708 [2seedG4690 1a long-lived].G3112.1
ABP
Now-it will be interesting to hear your perspective-is it God is pleased to crush Messiah-or "to purge" Messiah from his stroke/beating?
Diserner
Well-known member
This really changes the fundamental meaning of the whole passage.
It makes it sound like the Messiah himself has done something wrong and needs to make an offering and be purged.
Instead of BEING the offering for OTHERS' purging.
Johann
Well-known member
This in the footnote of the OSB
The Lord, God the Father, cleansed Him, God the Son, of His wound because
His body could not remain subject to corruption and death. The offering made by Christ
enables man to receive the same healing and eternal life.
Your take?
Last edited:
Diserner
Well-known member
The EO has a lot of false doctrine on the atonement.
Exercise extreme caution with them.
Johann
Well-known member
There is a fundamental difference from YHVH "cleansing/purging" Messiah from His stroke/beating versus bruised--and put Messiah to grief @dizerner.
Isa 53:10 Yet YHWHH3068 Conj-w+N-proper-ms Yah·weh וַיהוָ֞ה it pleasedH2654 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-3ms ḥā·p̄êṣ חָפֵ֤ץ to bruise HimH1792 H8763 V-Piel-Inf+3ms dak·kə·’ōw דַּכְּאוֹ֙ He has put [Him] to grief;H2470 H8689 V-Hifil-Perf-3ms he·ḥĕ·lî הֶֽחֱלִ֔י whenH518 Conj ’im- אִם־ You makeH7760 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3fs tā·śîm תָּשִׂ֤ים an offering for sin,H817 N-ms ’ā·šām אָשָׁם֙ N1 His soulH5315 N-fsc+3ms nap̄·šōw נַפְשׁ֔וֹ He shall seeH7200 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3ms yir·’eh יִרְאֶ֥ה [His] seed,H2233 N-ms ze·ra‘
The KJV says the following:
Isa 53:10 (KJV) Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
The LXX says the following:
Isa 53:10 (LXX) καὶ κύριος βούλεται καθαρίσαι αὐτὸν τῆς πληγῆς· ἐὰν δῶτε περὶ ἁμαρτίας, ἡ ψυχὴ ὑμῶν ὄψεται σπέρμα μακρόβιον· καὶ βούλεται κύριος ἀφελεῖν
The underlined LXX phrase can be literally translated as such: And the Lord willingly cleanse him his wounds. It sounds awkward in English but the thing to note is that there is no "pleased" in the Greek text. βούλεται denotes volition, not emotion.
Johann
Well-known member
53:10 "But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief"
YHWH was pleased (lit. "it was the will of" ‒ BDB 342, KB 339, Qal perfect). This verb means "to delight in" (cf. Isa. 58:2; 62:4) or "desire" (55:11).
It is even used of YHWH's pleasure to put someone to death in 1 Sam. 2:25. It is shocking to use a verb like this in connection with the unfair, painful treatment of the righteous Servant. YHWH had an eternal redemptive plan!
YHWH's will and purpose was "to crush" (Piel infinitive construct, cf. Isa. 53:5) and "put to grief" (Hiphil perfect, BDB 317, KB 311). The verb means "to make sick" (JPSOA) or "sore by hitting." There was a high and costly price to pay for human redemption (cf. 2 Cor. 5:21)! YHWH and His Servant paid it fully and freely!
Isa 53:10 Yet YHWHH3068 Conj-w+N-proper-ms Yah·weh וַיהוָ֞ה it pleasedH2654 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-3ms ḥā·p̄êṣ חָפֵ֤ץ to bruise HimH1792 H8763 V-Piel-Inf+3ms dak·kə·’ōw דַּכְּאוֹ֙ He has put [Him] to grief;H2470 H8689 V-Hifil-Perf-3ms he·ḥĕ·lî הֶֽחֱלִ֔י whenH518 Conj ’im- אִם־ You makeH7760 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3fs tā·śîm תָּשִׂ֤ים an offering for sin,H817 N-ms ’ā·šām אָשָׁם֙ N1 His soulH5315 N-fsc+3ms nap̄·šōw נַפְשׁ֔וֹ He shall seeH7200 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3ms yir·’eh יִרְאֶ֥ה [His] seed,H2233 N-ms ze·ra‘ זֶ֖רַע He shall prolongH748 H8686 V-Hifil-Imperf-3ms ya·’ă·rîḵ יַאֲרִ֣יךְ [His] days,H3117 N-mp yā·mîm יָמִ֑ים and the pleasureH2656 Conj-w+N-msc wə·ḥê·p̄eṣ וְחֵ֥פֶץ of YHWHH3068 N-proper-ms Yah·weh יְהוָ֖ה in His handH3027 Prep-b+N-fsc+3ms bə·yā·ḏōw בְּיָד֥וֹ shall prosper.H6743 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3ms yiṣ·lāḥ יִצְלָֽח׃
It would please Yahweh to crush His Servant and to put Him to grief. The Father did not find the sufferings and death of His Son something pleasurable (or enjoyable) to behold, but they pleased (satisfied) Him because they fulfilled His great purpose of providing redemption for humankind.
it pleased the LORD = YHVH purposed. when thou shalt make, &c. This introduces the break in the Dispensations, which is the subject of the rest of the chapter: the "glory which shall follow" the sufferings.
His soul = Himself. Hebrew. nephesh. . Compare Joh_10:11, Joh_10:15, Joh_10:17, Joh_10:18.
an offering for sin. Hebrew. 'aham = the trespass offering.. Ref to Pentateuch, for this is a peculiarly Levitical word (Lev_14:12, Lev_14:21), and cannot be understood apart from it. In Psa 40 it is the aspect of the whole burnt offering--
Here is Rashi-
10And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand. יוַֽיהֹוָ֞ה חָפֵ֚ץ דַּכְּאוֹ֙ הֶֽחֱלִ֔י אִם־תָּשִׂ֚ים אָשָׁם֙ נַפְשׁ֔וֹ יִרְאֶ֥ה זֶ֖רַע יַֽאֲרִ֣יךְ יָמִ֑ים וְחֵ֥פֶץ יְהֹוָ֖ה בְּיָד֥וֹ יִצְלָֽח:
And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill: The Holy One, blessed be He, wished to crush him and to cause him to repent; therefore, he made him ill.
וה' חפץ דכאו החלי: הקב"ה חפץ לדכאו ולהחזירו למוטב לפיכך החלה אותו:
If his soul makes itself restitution, etc.: Said the Holy One, blessed be He, “I will see, if his soul will be given and delivered with My holiness to return it to Me as restitution for all that he betrayed Me, I will pay him his recompense, and he will see children, etc.” This word אָשָׁם is an expression of ransom that one gives to the one against when he sinned, amende in O.F., to free from faults, similar to the matter mentioned in the episode of the Philistines (I Sam. 6:3), “Do not send it away empty, but you shall send back with it a guilt offering (אָשָׁם).”
Now please, I don't endorse what Rashi is saying--------
It has nothing to do with emotion-correct there-it was the boule/thelema of YHVH-Messiah and the Ruach.
Isaiah is prophesying that God was glad when the Messiah died. It pleased the LORD that the Messiah was crushed and put to grief. This too would have been difficult for a son of Israel to understand. How could the LORD be pleased that His Messiah was killed?
We shall soon see, that this does not mean the LORD takes pleasure in the Messiah’s suffering for the sake of suffering. Far from it. The LORD is loving and kind,
“The LORD is gracious and merciful;
Slow to anger and great in lovingkindness.”
(Psalm 145:8)
The Messiah will render Himself as a guilt offering on behalf of Israel to be crushed and grieved. And it was His sacrificial gift as a guilt offering to atone for the sins of His people that pleased the LORD—and not His mere suffering by itself. (More on this in just a moment.)
The Messiah’s grief and crushing was part of the LORD’s plan before Adam and Eve ever left the Garden of Eden in exile. When God judged the serpent for tempting Adam and Eve to disobey His command, He told him that the woman’s seed (the Messiah) and the serpent would be enemies. The serpent would be defeated, but the Messiah would be injured,
“And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”
(Genesis 3:17)
Isaiah 53 shows how grievous this injury would be to the Messiah. It would be grievous enough to kill Him, but as Isaiah predicts in the second half of this verse and in 53:11, the Messiah will not remain dead.
The reason the Messiah’s death and grief pleased the LORD was because the Messiah would render Himself as a guilt offering to reconcile the world to God. This prophecy predicts that the Messiah will willingly undergo these sorrows and pains—and that He will do so on behalf of others. Because the Messiah willingly sacrifices Himself—even to the point of a painful death—it pleases the LORD. God loved the world, and the Son’s sacrifice pays for the sin of the world (John 3:16).
That is why the word if is included in the statement, If He would render Himself as a guilt offering.
The word if indicates a conditional statement. The Hebrew word translated if can also be translated as “when” (also indicating a conditional statement).
The LORD is pleased if the Messiah will choose to lay down His life on behalf of “us all” (Isaiah 53:6). The LORD was pleased upon this conditional clause being met. Even though this is phrased as a conditional statement in English, the prophecy presumes that the Messiah will choose to suffer and die as a guilt offering.
Guilt offerings are explained in Leviticus 5.
A guilt offering is an offering to the LORD for the atonement of sin. They require a blood sacrifice, typically a lamb, as compensation for trespassing against God’s law. The Hebrew word for guilt offering is אָשָׁם (H817—pronounced “aw-shawm”). It means compensation for guiltiness. Guilt offerings were accepted after confession that the one making the offering had sinned against the LORD (Leviticus 5:5). Guilt offerings were to be made whether the sin was intentional or accidental.
Here, Isaiah is prophesying that the Messiah will:
render Himself as a guilt offering on behalf of Israel.
and that His sacrifice will please the LORD, meaning that God would receive this sacrifice as an atonement for our sins.
The Messiah will suffer and die to sacrifice Himself for our sins. His sacrifice of Himself will please the LORD and redeem His people from their sins (Hebrews 10:12). His death will be because of “our transgressions” and He will be “crushed for our iniquities” (Isaiah 53:5).
And as Isaiah prophesies in Isaiah 53:12, “He Himself bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.”
Jesus, the Messiah, rendered Himself as a guilt offering and it pleased the LORD to crush Him and put Him to grief,
“The Lord Jesus Christ… gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father.”
(Galatians 1:3b-4)
At His first advent, Jesus, the Messiah came to suffer and die as a guilt offering to redeem His people,
“The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
(Matthew 20:28)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now-show me where was Messiah- And the LORD willed to cleanse him of the beating/stroke?-as per LXX.
civic
Well-known member
He is no longer here. I banned him after he attacked me via PM after several warnings then when I lifted the 3 day ban came back making it personal and public defaming me here and on another forum telling lies. So I gave him a permanent ban. This is my first time doing this on the forum as I normally stay away from these types of interactions and let out moderators handle theses issues. But since it became personal with me several times after several warnings I decided it was best for the well being of the forum. Since it’s my forum I can and will step in when necessary but I really do not like to not do I want to do these things.
I figured the members should know what and why it happened.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I don't need to see your research. I know the subject well and you have repeatedly ignore the questions I've put to you. You're living in fantasy.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
All good and perfect gifts come from above. Evil has no greater good.
In an instant, God can overcome all the works of evil. God needs nothing. God does not serve Evil.
civic
Well-known member
He is unable to reply and is no longer a member here.
To be pleased means to take pleasure. That direct relationship is undeniable. Only a Sadist is pleased with and takes pleasure in another's calamities. That's why there is no sadistic pleasure in the LXX for Isaiah 53:10.
As for the LXX, what's wrong with God's willingness to cleanse Jesus' wounds? Do you take issue with that? Can't God cleanse Jesus' wounds?
Johann
Well-known member
I am not advocating a man's pleasure-but the holy Scriptures. God is not a man.
Isa 53:10 Yet R25it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief;N1 R26when his soul makesN2 an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; R1the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
The apparent miscarriage of justice just described (Isa_53:9) would not be what it would appear to be. It would be the deliberate act of Yahweh. It would please Yahweh to crush His Servant and to put Him to grief. The Father did not find the sufferings and death of His Son something pleasurable (or enjoyable) to behold, but they pleased (satisfied) Him because they fulfilled His great purpose of providing redemption for humankind.
Indicative you have not carefully read what I have posted.
"The faithful God of the Bible would certainly not visit bad things on innocent people, would he? Yes, he would if some greater good would be served (cf. Job)." [Note: Oswalt, The Book . . . 40-66, p. 400.]
חפץ
châphêts
khaw-fates'
A primitive root; properly to incline to; by implication (literally but rarely) to bend; figuratively to be pleased with, desire: - X any at all, (have, take) delight, desire, favour, like, move, be (well) pleased, have pleasure, will, would.
LXX Related Word(s)
G25 agapao
G138 haireo
G140 hairetizo
G1937 epithumeo
G2106 eu dokeo
G2476 histemi
G2309 thelo
G1014 boulomai
BDB Definition:
1) to delight in, take pleasure in, desire, be pleased with
1a) (Qal)
1a1) of men
1a1a) to take pleasure in, delight in
1a1b) to delight, desire, be pleased to do
1a2) of God
1a2a) to delight in, have pleasure in
1a2b) to be pleased to do
2) to move, bend down
2a) (Qal) to bend down
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
OTW Number: 712b
Transliteration: hepes
Strong's Reference: H2656
Definition: delight.
The basic meaning is to feel great favor towards something. Its meaning differs from the parallel roots, hamad, hashaq, and rasa, in that they connote less emotional involvement. hamad and hashaq are usually translated "desire," and rasa "accept," favor being based on need, or judgment of approval. In the case of hapes, the object solicits favor by its own intrinsic qualities. The subject is easily attracted to it because it is desirable. A fourth root, gil, somewhat parallel, connotes even greater emotional involvement. Here the subject gives expression to his delight in a joyful attitude and conduct. The root hapes is used more frequently than the other words, a total of 123 times, including the verb and its derivatives.
hapes occurs only in the Qal stem, and it means "to experience emotional delight." This delight may be felt by men or by God.
YHVH incapable of experiencing EMOTIONAL delight?
Men are said to experience it in respect to women. Shechem, son of Hamor, had "delight" in Jacob's daughter Dinah (Gen_34:19). The contestants in King Ahasuerus's beauty contest did not return to him after the first viewing unless he had "delight" in them (Est_2:14). Men also experience it with other men. When King Saul wanted David to marry his daughter Michal, he instructed his servants to inform David that the king had "delight" in him (1Sa_18:22).
This delight may be experienced in respect to matters and things. Joab used the word when he asked David why he persisted in having a census taken, or the army mustered (see paqad), i.e. why he had "delight" in it (2Sa_24:3). The word is also used in reference to people delighting in certain activities. King Ahasuerus asked Haman what should be done to the man whom the king "delighted" to honor (Est_6:6). Still another use of the word is in an absolute sense, as in a repeated expression of Song: "Nor awake (my) love, until he please" (Son_2:7; Son_3:5; Son_8:4).
The word is used of God having delight in certain people. In David's song of deliverance, he says that God provided for him because he "delighted" in him (2Sa_22:20).
The Queen of Sheba expressed a blessing to God because he "delighted" in Solomon (1Ki_10:9).
God is said to experience this delight toward good works of men. For instance, he "delights" in his sabbath being kept and his law observed (Isa_56:4), in "mercy" and "knowledge of God" (Hos_6:6), and in "truth" (Psa_51:8). In respect to himself, God engages in activities in which he takes "delight" (Psa_115:3; Psa_135:6).
Samson's father, Man oah, feared death for himself and wife because the Angel of the Lord had appeared to them, but his wife replied that had God "delighted" to do this, he would not have received their sacrifices.
hapes. Delighting in, having pleasure in. This adjective, used similarly to the verb, occurs in ten passages, nine of which depict man's activity With men who "delight" in God's righteous cause, God is said to be pleased (Psa_35:27). Nehemiah prays that God would be attentive to the prayer of those who "delighted" to fear his name (Neh_1:11).
As to the rest-too tired to even reply-late here in South Africa.
The word "pleased" is not in the LXX for Isaiah 53:10 nor does it have to be. Your insistence to force it in there is unjustified because it adds nothing of added value to how Isaiah 53:10 is written in the LXX. Sorry, your PSA theory flounders here and everywhere else across the entire Bible.
civic
Well-known member
Ditto
Johann
Well-known member
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush Him and to cause Him to suffer; and when His soul is made a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
YHVH's will and pleasure is synonymous/interchangeably-used twice in this verse.
