Isaiah 53:10 and the LXX
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
Johann
Well-known member
I stand by what I've posted-and I notice a sudden change in the wind.
I am well aware what is eisegesis and exegesis-why should I bring in a false theology just because you don't agree? I don't say you are promulgating a false theology.
You yourself said this is not a salvific issue-right?
civic
Well-known member
PSA is an assault / attack on Gods nature/ character. It’s a divided Trinity . The Father angered with wrath/ vengeance/ retribution upon the Son. It’s heresy.
hope this helps !!!
Johann
Well-known member
I disagree.
Read Isaiah 52-and 53 again, use the LXX if you want-strong, graphic verbs penned down-Perfect Tense.
civic
Well-known member
I have Jesus clear teaching on the atonement and the apostles and none of them teach anything about wrath from Father to Son. Like I said it’s a misunderstood single passage that contradicts the NT, Jesus, the Apostles and the Tri- Unity of God.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
Amen
Johann
Well-known member
Suffering is penal-no way out for you there.
Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? And to whom is the Zero'a Hashem [Yeshayah 52:10] revealed?
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a Shoresh (Root, Shoresh Yishai, Moshiach, Yeshayah 11:10, Sanhedrin93b) out of a dry ground; he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire [Chaggai 2:7] him.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and chadal ishim (rejected by men); a man of sorrows, and acquainted with suffering; and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our sufferings, and nasah (carried [Vayikra 16:22; Yeshayah 53:12)] our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, [i.e., like a leper is stricken] smitten of G-d, and afflicted [see verse 8 below].
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced [Yeshayah 51:9; Zecharyah 12:10 Sukkah 52a, Tehillim 22:17 Targum Hashivim] for our transgressions, he was bruised mei'avonoteinu (for our iniquities); the musar (chastisement) (that brought us shalom [Yeshayah 54:10] was upon him [Moshiach]; and at the cost of his (Moshiach's) chaburah (stripes, lacerations) we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own derech (way; see Prov 16:25); and Hashem hath laid on him [Moshiach] the avon (iniquity, the guilt that separates from G-d) of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; he is brought as a seh (lamb; see Shemot 12:3) to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment; and who of his generation declared? For he was cut off [ Dan_9:26 ; Lev_17:10 ] out of Eretz Chayyim [this refers to the mot of Moshiach Ben Dovid, see Isa_53:12 ] mipesha ami (for the transgression of my people [Yisroel]) -nega (plague cf Psa_91:10 ) lamo ([fell] on him [i.e., Moshiach; in light of Psa_11:7 and Job_22:2 we are warranted in saying the suffix is a singular, "him," not "them". Cf Gen_9:26-27 ; Deu_33:2 ; Isa_44:15 ; also compare 1Ch_21:17 ]).
Isa 53:9 And he made his kever (grave) with the resha'im, and with the oisher (rich man; see Mt 27:57-60) bemotayv (in his deaths, intensive plural should be translated singular, death); because he had done no chamas (violence), neither was any mirmah (deceit) in his mouth. T.N. We stray as sheep; we return in Moshiach as children (zera); the Techiyas HaMoshiach (Resurrection of Moshiach) predicted in v. 10 [Dead Sea Scrolls Isaiah Scroll says Moshiach "will see the light [of life];" see also the Targum HaShivim]
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased Hashem to bruise him; He hath put him to suffering; when Thou shalt make his nefesh an asham offering for sin, he (Moshiach) shall see zera [see Psalm 16 and Yn 1:12 OJBC], He shall prolong his yamim (days) and the chefetz Hashem (pleasure, will of Hashem) shall prosper in his [Moshiach's] hand.
Isa 53:11 He [Hashem] shall see of the travail of his [Moshiach's] nefesh, and shall be satisfied; by knowledge of him [Moshiach] shall Tzadik Avdi ["My Righteous Servant," Moshiach, Zecharyah 3:8, Yirmeyah 23:5; Zecharyah 6:11-12, Ezra 3:8 Yehoshua, Yeshua shmo] justify many (Ro 5:1); for he [Moshiach] shall bear their avon (iniquities).
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his nefesh unto mavet (death); and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he nasah (Lv 16:22, carried) (like the Yom Kippur scapegoat) the sin of many, and made intercession [did the work of a mafgi'a, intercessor] for the transgressors [see Lk 23:34 OJBC].
Show me where the "wrath of YHVH is poured out on Messiah" in this passage-can you find it?
Isa 53:1 O LORD, who trusted our report? And the arm of the LORD, to whom was it uncovered?
Isa 53:2 We announced as of a male child before him, as a root in a land thirsting. There is no appearance to him, nor glory; and we beheld him, and he does not have appearance nor beauty.
Isa 53:3 But his appearance was without honor, and wanting by sons of men. A man [for calamity being], and knowing how to bear infirmity. For he turned his face; he was dishonored and was not considered.
Isa 53:4 This one [our sins bore], and on account of us he was grieved. And we considered him to be for misery, and for calamity by God, and for ill treatment.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded because of our sins, and he was made infirm on account of our lawless deeds. The discipline for our peace was upon him; by his stripe we were healed.
Isa 53:6 [all as sheep We were wandered]. A man [in his way was wandered], and the LORD delivered him up for our sins.
Isa 53:7 And he on account of being inflicted by evil opened not his mouth. [as a sheep unto slaughter He was led], and as a lamb before the one shearing is voiceless, so he did not open his mouth.
Isa 53:8 In the humiliation, in his equity, he was lifted away. [his generation Who shall describe]? For [was lifted away from the earth his life]. Because of the lawless deeds of my people he was led unto death.
Isa 53:9 And I shall give the wicked for his burial, and the rich for his death. For [lawlessness he did not commit], nor was treachery in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 And the LORD willed to cleanse him of the beating. If you should offer for a sin offering the thing for your life, he shall see [seed a long-lived].
Isa 53:11 And the LORD willed by his hand to remove misery of his soul, to show to him light, and to shape in the understanding; to justify the just one, the good one serving many, and [their sins he shall bear].
Isa 53:12 On account of this he shall inherit many; and of the strong ones he will portion out spoils, because [was delivered up unto death his soul]; and [among the lawless ones he was considered]; and he himself [the sins of many bore], and because of their lawless deeds he was delivered up.
ABP
--Or here--
Isa 53:1 The Suffering Servant
WhoH4310 Interrog mî מִ֥י N1 has believedH539 H8689 V-Hifil-Perf-3ms he·’ĕ·mîn הֶאֱמִ֖ין our report?H8052 Prep-l+N-fsc+1cp liš·mu·‘ā·ṯê·nū לִשְׁמֻעָתֵ֑נוּ and the armH2220 Conj-w+N-fsc ū·zə·rō·w·a‘ וּזְר֥וֹעַ of YHWHH3068 N-proper-ms Yah·weh יְהוָ֖ה toH5921 Prep ‘al- עַל־ whomH4310 Interrog mî מִ֥י has been revealed?H1540 H8738 V-Nifal-Perf-3fs niḡ·lā·ṯāh נִגְלָֽתָה׃ N2
Isa 53:2 for He shall grow upH5927 H8799 Conj-w+V-Qal-ConsecImperf-3ms way·ya·‘al וַיַּ֨עַל as a tender plant,H3126 Prep-k-Art+N-ms kay·yō·w·nêq כַּיּוֹנֵ֜ק before HimH6440 Prep-l+N-cpc+3ms lə·p̄ā·nāw לְפָנָ֗יו and as a rootH8328 Conj-w-Prep-k-Art+N-ms wə·ḵaš·šō·reš וְכַשֹּׁ֙רֶשׁ֙ out of ground;H776 Prep-m+N-fsc mê·’e·reṣ מֵאֶ֣רֶץ dryH6723 Adj-fs ṣî·yāh צִיָּ֔ה noH3808 Adv-NegPrt lō- לֹא־ formH8389 N-ms ṯō·’ar תֹ֥אַר He hasH0 Prep+3ms lōw ל֖וֹ orH3808 Conj-w+Adv-NegPrt wə·lō וְלֹ֣א comeliness;H1926 N-ms hā·ḏār הָדָ֑ר and we see HimH7200 H8799 Conj-w+V-Qal-ConjImperf.h-1cp+3ms wə·nir·’ê·hū וְנִרְאֵ֥הוּ and [There is] noH3808 Conj-w+Adv-NegPrt wə·lō- וְלֹֽא־ beautyH4758 N-ms mar·’eh מַרְאֶ֖ה that we should desire Him.H2530 H8799 Conj-w+V-Qal-ConjImperf.h-1cp+3ms wə·neḥ·mə·ḏê·hū וְנֶחְמְדֵֽהוּ׃
Isa 53:3 He is despisedH959 H8737 V-Nifal-Prtcpl-ms niḇ·zeh נִבְזֶה֙ and rejected byH2310 Conj-w+Adj-msc wa·ḥă·ḏal וַחֲדַ֣ל men;H376 N-mp ’î·šîm אִישִׁ֔ים a ManH376 N-msc ’îš אִ֥ישׁ of sorrows,H4341 N-mp maḵ·’ō·ḇō·wṯ מַכְאֹב֖וֹת and acquaintedH3045 H8803 Conj-w+V-Qal-QalPassPrtcpl-msc wî·ḏū·a‘ וִיד֣וּעַ with grief;H2483 N-ms ḥō·lî חֹ֑לִי and as it were we hidH4564 H8688 Conj-w-Prep-k+N-msc ū·ḵə·mas·têr וּכְמַסְתֵּ֤ר [our] facesH6440 N-mp pā·nîm פָּנִים֙ from HimH4480 Prep+3ms mim·men·nū מִמֶּ֔נּוּ He was despised,H959 H8737 V-Nifal-Prtcpl-ms niḇ·zeh נִבְזֶ֖ה and notH3808 Conj-w+Adv-NegPrt wə·lō וְלֹ֥א we did esteem Him.H2803 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-1cp+3ms ḥă·šaḇ·nu·hū חֲשַׁבְנֻֽהוּ׃
Isa 53:4 SurelyH403 Adv ’ā·ḵên אָכֵ֤ן our griefs,H2483 N-mpc+1cp ḥo·lā·yê·nū חֳלָיֵ֙נוּ֙ HeH1931 Pro-3ms hū ה֣וּא has borneH5375 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-3ms nā·śā נָשָׂ֔א and our sorrows;H4341 Conj-w+N-mpc+1cp ū·maḵ·’ō·ḇê·nū וּמַכְאֹבֵ֖ינוּ N1 carriedH5445 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-3ms+3mp sə·ḇā·lām סְבָלָ֑ם and yet weH587 Conj-w+Pro-1cp wa·’ă·naḥ·nū וַאֲנַ֣חְנוּ esteemed HimH2803 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-1cp+3ms ḥă·šaḇ·nu·hū חֲשַׁבְנֻ֔הוּ stricken,H5060 H8803 V-Qal-QalPassPrtcpl-ms nā·ḡū·a‘ נָג֛וּעַ Smitten byH5221 H8716 V-Hofal-Prtcpl-msc muk·kêh מֻכֵּ֥ה God,H430 N-mp ’ĕ·lō·hîm אֱלֹהִ֖ים and afflicted.H6031 H8794 Conj-w+V-Pual-Prtcpl-ms ū·mə·‘un·neh וּמְעֻנֶּֽה׃
Isa 53:5 But HeH1931 Conj-w+Pro-3ms wə·hū וְהוּא֙ [was] woundedH2490 H8775 V-Pual-Prtcpl-ms mə·ḥō·lāl מְחֹלָ֣ל for our transgressions,H6588 Prep-m+N-mpc+1cp mip·pə·šā·‘ê·nū מִפְּשָׁעֵ֔נוּ [He was] bruisedH1792 H8794 V-Pual-Prtcpl-ms mə·ḏuk·kā מְדֻכָּ֖א for our iniquities;H5771 Prep-m+N-cpc+1cp mê·‘ă·wō·nō·ṯê·nū מֵעֲוֺנֹתֵ֑ינוּ the chastisement forH4148 N-msc mū·sar מוּסַ֤ר our peaceH7965 N-msc+1cp šə·lō·w·mê·nū שְׁלוֹמֵ֙נוּ֙ [was] upon HimH5921 Prep+3ms ‘ā·lāw עָלָ֔יו and by His stripesH2250 Conj-w-Prep-b+N-fsc+3ms ū·ḇa·ḥă·ḇu·rā·ṯōw וּבַחֲבֻרָת֖וֹ are healedH7495 H8738 V-Nifal-Perf-3ms nir·pā- נִרְפָּא־ N1 we.H0 Prep+1cp lā·nū לָֽנוּ׃
Isa 53:6 All weH3605 N-msc+1cp kul·lā·nū כֻּלָּ֙נוּ֙ like sheepH6629 Prep-k-Art+N-cs kaṣ·ṣōn כַּצֹּ֣אן have gone astray;H8582 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-1cp tā·‘î·nū תָּעִ֔ינוּ N1 every oneH376 N-ms ’îš אִ֥ישׁ to his own way;H1870 Prep-l+N-csc+3ms lə·ḏar·kōw לְדַרְכּ֖וֹ we have turnedH6437 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-1cp pā·nî·nū פָּנִ֑ינוּ and YHWHH3068 Conj-w+N-proper-ms Yah·weh וַֽיהוָה֙ has laidH6293 H8689 V-Hifil-Perf-3ms hip̄·gî·a‘ הִפְגִּ֣יעַ on HimH0 Prep+3ms bōw בּ֔וֹ -H853 DirObjM ’êṯ אֵ֖ת the iniquityH5771 N-csc ‘ă·wōn עֲוֺ֥ן of us all.H3605 N-msc+1cp kul·lā·nū כֻּלָּֽנוּ׃
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed,H5065 H8738 V-Nifal-Perf-3ms nig·gaś נִגַּ֨שׂ and HeH1931 Conj-w+Pro-3ms wə·hū וְה֣וּא was afflicted,H6031 H8737 V-Nifal-Prtcpl-ms na·‘ă·neh נַעֲנֶה֮ and yet notH3808 Conj-w+Adv-NegPrt wə·lō וְלֹ֣א He openedH6605 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3ms yip̄·taḥ- יִפְתַּח־ His mouth;H6310 N-msc+3ms pîw פִּיו֒ as a lambH7716 Prep-k-Art+N-ms kaś·śeh כַּשֶּׂה֙ to the slaughter,H2874 Prep-l-Art+N-ms laṭ·ṭe·ḇaḥ לַטֶּ֣בַח He was ledH2986 H8714 V-Hofal-Imperf-3ms yū·ḇāl יוּבָ֔ל and as a sheepH7353 Conj-w-Prep-k+N-fs ū·ḵə·rā·ḥêl וּכְרָחֵ֕ל beforeH6440 Prep-l+N-cpc lip̄·nê לִפְנֵ֥י its shearersH1494 H8802 V-Qal-Prtcpl-mpc+3fs ḡō·zə·ze·hā גֹזְזֶ֖יהָ is silent,H481 H8738 V-Nifal-Perf-3fs ne·’ĕ·lā·māh נֶאֱלָ֑מָה so notH3808 Conj-w+Adv-NegPrt wə·lō וְלֹ֥א He openedH6605 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3ms yip̄·taḥ יִפְתַּ֖ח His mouth.H6310 N-msc+3ms pîw פִּֽיו׃
Isa 53:8 From prisonH6115 Prep-m+N-ms mê·‘ō·ṣer מֵעֹ֤צֶר and from judgment;H4941 Conj-w-Prep-m+N-ms ū·mim·miš·pāṭ וּמִמִּשְׁפָּט֙ He was takenH3947 H8795 V-QalPass-Perf-3ms luq·qāḥ לֻקָּ֔ח andH853 Conj-w+DirObjM wə·’eṯ- וְאֶת־ His generation?H1755 N-msc+3ms dō·w·rōw דּוֹר֖וֹ whoH4310 Interrog mî מִ֣י will declareH7878 H8787 V-Piel-Imperf-3ms yə·śō·w·ḥê·aḥ יְשׂוֹחֵ֑חַ forH3588 Conj kî כִּ֤י He was cut offH1504 H8738 V-Nifal-Perf-3ms niḡ·zar נִגְזַר֙ from the landH776 Prep-m+N-fsc mê·’e·reṣ מֵאֶ֣רֶץ of the living;H2416 Adj-mp ḥay·yîm חַיִּ֔ים N1 for the transgressionsH6588 Prep-m+N-msc mip·pe·ša‘ מִפֶּ֥שַׁע of My peopleH5971 N-msc+1cs ‘am·mî עַמִּ֖י was strickenH5061 N-ms ne·ḡa‘ נֶ֥גַע He.H0 Prep+3mp lā·mōw לָֽמוֹ׃
Isa 53:9 A Grave Assigned
and they madeH5414 H8799 Conj-w+V-Qal-ConsecImperf-3ms way·yit·tên וַיִּתֵּ֤ן N1 withH854 Prep ’eṯ- אֶת־ the wicked,H7563 Adj-mp rə·šā·‘îm רְשָׁעִים֙ His graveH6913 N-msc+3ms qiḇ·rōw קִבְר֔וֹ but withH854 Conj-w+Prep wə·’eṯ- וְאֶת־ the richH6223 Adj-ms ‘ā·šîr עָשִׁ֖יר at His death;H4194 Prep-b+N-mpc+3ms bə·mō·ṯāw בְּמֹתָ֑יו becauseH5921 Prep ‘al עַ֚ל noH3808 Adv-NegPrt lō- לֹא־ violence,H2555 N-ms ḥā·mās חָמָ֣ס He had doneH6213 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-3ms ‘ā·śāh עָשָׂ֔ה nor [was any]H3808 Conj-w+Adv-NegPrt wə·lō וְלֹ֥א deceitH4820 N-fs mir·māh מִרְמָ֖ה in His mouth.H6310 Prep-b+N-msc+3ms bə·p̄îw בְּפִֽיו׃ N2
Isa 53:10 Yet YHWHH3068 Conj-w+N-proper-ms Yah·weh וַיהוָ֞ה it pleasedH2654 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-3ms ḥā·p̄êṣ חָפֵ֤ץ to bruise HimH1792 H8763 V-Piel-Inf+3ms dak·kə·’ōw דַּכְּאוֹ֙ He has put [Him] to grief;H2470 H8689 V-Hifil-Perf-3ms he·ḥĕ·lî הֶֽחֱלִ֔י whenH518 Conj ’im- אִם־ You makeH7760 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3fs tā·śîm תָּשִׂ֤ים an offering for sin,H817 N-ms ’ā·šām אָשָׁם֙ N1 His soulH5315 N-fsc+3ms nap̄·šōw נַפְשׁ֔וֹ He shall seeH7200 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3ms yir·’eh יִרְאֶ֥ה [His] seed,H2233 N-ms ze·ra‘ זֶ֖רַע He shall prolongH748 H8686 V-Hifil-Imperf-3ms ya·’ă·rîḵ יַאֲרִ֣יךְ [His] days,H3117 N-mp yā·mîm יָמִ֑ים and the pleasureH2656 Conj-w+N-msc wə·ḥê·p̄eṣ וְחֵ֥פֶץ of YHWHH3068 N-proper-ms Yah·weh יְהוָ֖ה in His handH3027 Prep-b+N-fsc+3ms bə·yā·ḏōw בְּיָד֥וֹ shall prosper.H6743 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3ms yiṣ·lāḥ יִצְלָֽח׃
Isa 53:11 The laborH5999 Prep-m+N-msc mê·‘ă·mal מֵעֲמַ֤ל of His soul,H5315 N-fsc+3ms nap̄·šōw נַפְשׁוֹ֙ He shall seeH7200 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3ms yir·’eh יִרְאֶ֣ה N1 [and] be satisfied;H7646 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3ms yiś·bā‘ יִשְׂבָּ֔ע by His knowledgeH1847 Prep-b+N-fsc+3ms bə·ḏa‘·tōw בְּדַעְתּ֗וֹ shall justifyH6663 H8686 V-Hifil-Imperf-3ms yaṣ·dîq יַצְדִּ֥יק righteousH6662 Adj-ms ṣad·dîq צַדִּ֛יק My ServantH5650 N-msc+1cs ‘aḇ·dî עַבְדִּ֖י many;H7227 Prep-l-Art+Adj-mp lā·rab·bîm לָֽרַבִּ֑ים for their iniquitiesH5771 Conj-w+N-cpc+3mp wa·‘ă·wō·nō·ṯām וַעֲוֺנֹתָ֖ם HeH1931 Pro-3ms hū ה֥וּא shall bear.H5445 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3ms yis·bōl יִסְבֹּֽל׃
Isa 53:12 ThereforeH3651 Adv lā·ḵên לָכֵ֞ן I will divide a portionH2505 H8762 V-Piel-Imperf-1cs ’ă·ḥal·leq- אֲחַלֶּק־ HimH0 Prep+3ms lōw ל֣וֹ with the great,H7227 Prep-b-Art+Adj-mp ḇā·rab·bîm בָרַבִּ֗ים N1 and withH854 Conj-w+Prep wə·’eṯ- וְאֶת־ the strong;H6099 Adj-mp ‘ă·ṣū·mîm עֲצוּמִים֮ N2 He shall divideH2505 H8762 V-Piel-Imperf-3ms yə·ḥal·lêq יְחַלֵּ֣ק the spoilH7998 N-ms šā·lāl שָׁלָל֒ uponH8478 Prep ta·ḥaṯ תַּ֗חַת thatH834 Pro-r ’ă·šer אֲשֶׁ֨ר He poured outH6168 H8689 V-Hifil-Perf-3ms he·‘ĕ·rāh הֶעֱרָ֤ה unto death,H4194 Prep-l-Art+N-ms lam·mā·weṯ לַמָּ֙וֶת֙ His soulH5315 N-fsc+3ms nap̄·šōw נַפְשׁ֔וֹ and withH854 Conj-w+Prep wə·’eṯ- וְאֶת־ the transgressors;H6586 H8802 V-Qal-Prtcpl-mp pō·šə·‘îm פֹּשְׁעִ֖ים N3 He was numberedH4487 H8738 V-Nifal-Perf-3ms nim·nāh נִמְנָ֑ה and HeH1931 Conj-w+Pro-3ms wə·hū וְהוּא֙ the sinH2399 N-msc ḥêṭ- חֵטְא־ of many,H7227 Adj-mp rab·bîm רַבִּ֣ים boreH5375 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-3ms nā·śā נָשָׂ֔א and for the transgressorsH6586 H8802 Conj-w-Prep-l-Art+V-Qal-Prtcpl-mp wə·lap·pō·šə·‘îm וְלַפֹּשְׁעִ֖ים made intercession.H6293 H8686 V-Hifil-Imperf-3ms yap̄·gî·a‘ יַפְגִּֽיעַ׃ס
-or here-
Thanks
Johann
Well-known member
I asked you to show me where is the wrath of YHVH "poured out on His Son" IN Isaiah 53 and you can't show me? Because it is NOT there.
Suffering is PENAL-there is no way out and it was the Father's boule/thelema/will/wish/pleasure for it to be so.
But it is 6.00 in the morning and I'm tired.
Shalom.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
To settle this once and for all......
Isa 53:10 is an appeal to Genesis 3:15.
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Just "who" is being referenced in brusing the seed of the women?
Diserner
Well-known member
Some people think the wilderness trials versus Satan were Jesus' greatest temptation.
That stuff was peanuts.
Jesus in the garden—look at his demeanor praying versus his wilderness testing—no comparison.
God is the real one to fear, not Satan, capable of a mere bruise.
That stuff was peanuts.
Jesus in the garden—look at his demeanor praying versus his wilderness testing—no comparison.
God is the real one to fear, not Satan, capable of a mere bruise.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Really? Jesus feared God in the garden and on the cross? Is that what you're saying?
Jesus hated the shame the cross brought Him. Jesus suffered at the hands of sinners.
We don't have to guess at how this worked.
Heb 12:3 Think of him who endured such opposition against himself by sinners, so that you may not grow weary in your souls and give up.
Heb 12:4 You have not yet resisted to the point of bloodshed in your struggle against sin.
civic
Well-known member
Amen
Johann
Well-known member
Yeah-let's settle the score-
"between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed"
There has been much discussion among commentators about this verse. In a larger canonical context it seems to refer to the children (i.e., "seed," BDB 282) of the evil one (cf. Matt. 13:38; John 8:44) and the children of the Messiah (cf. LXX and Irenaeus).
But because the next verse uses the SINGULAR form "he" and "you" it seems to refer to the tension between God and the evil one symbolized in the redemptive work of the coming Messiah (cf. LXX and Irenaeus).
It is obvious that Adam and Eve did not understand the ramification of this (i.e., Eve thought the birth of Cain may have fulfilled this, cf. Gen. 4:1), nor probably did Moses, although Moses recognized in Deut. 18:18 that a prophet greater than himself was coming. I think that it probably does have a veiled allusion to the virgin birth, though this was surely unknown to the original human author, but known to the divine author (Holy Spirit). As mankind fell through the impulsiveness of the woman, mankind will be redeemed through the obedience of a woman in the supernatural conception of the Messiah by the Holy Spirit (cf. Isa. 7:14; Matt. 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-38, see A Guide To Biblical Prophecy, pp. 78 and 80). The Vulgate changes the "he" in the next phrase to "she," which is totally inappropriate, but it may catch the gist of the fuller significance.
As this prophecy is not fully understood until its historical fulfillment in the virgin birth of Jesus, the same is to be said about the interpretation of Genesis 1 and 2. History reveals the truthfulness of revelation as the continuing scientific study of our earth shows the intricacy and inter-relatedness of God's creative acts! There is no conflict, just a more complete knowledge on mankind's part as to God's activities!
NASB "He shall bruise you on the head"
NKJV "He shall bruise your head"
NRSV "he will strike your head"
TEV "Her offspring will crush your head"
NJB "It will bruise your head"
REB, JPSOA "They will strike at your head"
LXX "he will watch your head"
Peshitta "her posterity shall tread your head under foot"
The term "bruise" can mean "crush," "pound," "rub off," "grind," or "strike" (BDB 1003, KB 1446, Qal IMPERFECT MASCULINE, SINGULAR, used twice, cf. Job 9:17). Notice the SINGULAR PERSONAL PRONOUN (BDB 214, cf. Rom. 16:20). The battle will eventually come down to individuals.
NASB "And you shall bruise him on the heel"
NKJV "and you shall bruise His heel"
NRSV, Peshitta "and you will strike his heel"
TEV "and you will bite her offsprings' heel"
NJB "and you will strike its heel"
REB, JPSOA "you will strike at their heel"
LXX "you will watch his heel"
The same VERB (BDB 1003, KB 1446, Qal IMPERFECT MASCULINE SINGULAR) is used for both, but it is obvious that Satan gets the worst end of the deal. This seems to refer to the crucifixion as the means of the substitutionary atonement for all humans when understood from the NT perspective.
Not from OUR perspective.
Johann
Well-known member
53:10 "But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief"
YHWH was pleased (lit. "it was the will of" ‒ BDB 342, KB 339, Qal perfect).
Can you explain to me what is the QAL PERFECT? Thanks.
This verb means "to delight in" (cf. Isa. 58:2; 62:4) or "desire" (55:11). It is even used of YHWH's pleasure to put someone to death in 1 Sam. 2:25. It is shocking to use a verb like this in connection with the unfair, painful treatment of the righteous Servant. YHWH had an eternal redemptive plan!
YHWH's will and purpose was "to crush" (Piel infinitive construct, cf. Isa. 53:5) and "put to grief" (Hiphil perfect, BDB 317, KB 311). The verb means "to make sick" (JPSOA) or "sore by hitting." There was a high and costly price to pay for human redemption (cf. 2 Cor. 5:21)! YHWH and His Servant paid it fully and freely!
NASB "If He would render Himself as a guilt offering"
NKJV, NRSV "When You make His soul an offering for sin"
TEV "His death was a sacrifice to bring forgiveness"
NJB "if he gives his life as a sin offering"
JPSOA "if he made himself an offering for guilt"
Peshitta "he laid down his life as an offering for sin"
REB "who had given Himself as a sacrifice for sin"
LXX "If you give an offering for sin"
This phrase is so simple yet so profound. It involves
the will of YHWH
the will of the Servant
the sinful ones who chose to receive this guilt offering (implied)
This is the Hebrew theological concept of "corporality." It is illustrated by
the sacrificial system (Leviticus 1-7), but especially the Day of Atonement (cf. Leviticus 16)
the sin of Achan affecting the Israeli army (Joshua 7)
the clear explanation in Romans 5:12-21
another great example in 2 Cor. 5:21
One innocent One paid the price to set free all the guilty ones!
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Are these your comments or are you referencing someone else?
Given what you have stated before, I'm skeptical that these are your words.
"It is obvious that Adam and Eve did not understand the ramification of this" ..... really? A husband and wife chased forced out of their life of comfort into the "unknown" and you believe they didn't understand what God said?
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I understood your position the first time you shared it. I don't see anything "new" to respond to.
Diserner
Well-known member
If you are under the impression every post you make brings something new, you are greatly mistaken, lol.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Not under such an impression. I was simply pointing out it was just a repeat of what was recently stated. I dealt with it. Nothing more.
