Isaiah 53:10 and the LXX

'Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
.. and as a root out of a dry ground:
.... He hath no form nor comeliness;
...... and when we shall see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him.
........ He is despised and rejected of men;
.......... a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief:
............ and we hid as it were our faces from Him;
.............. He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.
Surely He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows:
.. yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
.... But He was wounded for our transgressions,
...... He was bruised for our iniquities:
........ the chastisement of our peace was upon Him;
.......... and with His stripes we are healed.
............ All we like sheep have gone astray;
.............. we have turned every one to His own way;
................ and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth:
.. He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter,
.... and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He openeth not His mouth.
...... He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare H generation?
........ for He was cut off out of the land of the living:
.......... for the transgression of My people was He stricken.
............ And He made His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in His death;
.............. because He had done no violence, neither was any deceit in His mouth.
................ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He hath put Him to grief:
when thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed,
.. He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
.... He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
...... by His knowledge shall My righteous servant justify many; for He shall bear their iniquities.
........ Therefore will I divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong;
.......... because He hath poured out His soul unto death:
............ and He was numbered with the transgressors;
.............. and He bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.'
(Isa 53:1-12)

Praise His Holy Name!
 
Last edited:
Complete said:
'Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
.. and as a root out of a dry ground:
.... He hath no form nor comeliness;
...... and when we shall see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him.
........ He is despised and rejected of men;
.......... a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief:
............ and we hid as it were our faces from Him;
.............. He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.
Surely He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows:
.. yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
.... But He was wounded for our transgressions,
...... He was bruised for our iniquities:
........ the chastisement of our peace was upon Him;
.......... and with His stripes we are healed.
............ All we like sheep have gone astray;
.............. we have turned every one to His own way;
................ and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth:
.. He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter,
.... and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He openeth not His mouth.
...... He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare H generation?
........ for He was cut off out of the land of the living:
.......... for the transgression of My people was He stricken.
............ And He made His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in His death;
.............. because He had done no violence, neither was any deceit in His mouth.
................ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He hath put Him to grief:
when thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed,
.. He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
.... He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
...... by His knowledge shall My righteous servant justify many; for He shall bear their iniquities.
........ Therefore will I divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong;
.......... because He hath poured out His soul unto death:
............ and He was numbered with the transgressors;
.............. and He bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.'
(Isa 53:1-12)

Praise His Holy Name!
Click to expand...

A couple of questions..... Please correct me if I'm wrong.

1. Do you believe that Jesus struggled to Atone for the sins of humanity to the point of almost sinning Himself?
2. Does the more difficulty you see in Christ's suffering make you feel more wanted by God?
 
praise_yeshua said:
A couple of questions..... Please correct me if I'm wrong.

1. Do you believe that Jesus struggled to Atone for the sins of humanity to the point of almost sinning Himself?
2. Does the more difficulty you see in Christ's suffering make you feel more wanted by God?
Click to expand...
Hello @praise_yeshua ,

Forgive me for being extremely boring, but the only answer I wish to give at the moment is that I simply believe what is written.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Complete said:
Hello @praise_yeshua ,

Forgive me for being extremely boring, but the only answer I wish to give at the moment is that I simply believe what is written.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Click to expand...

Okay. No problem. Thank you!

I only ask these question because they "speak" to how we establish a proper view of the Accomplishments of Christ.

I consider myself a "worm". A sinful person devoid of any innate value other than what God has gifted me. He is so lovely. So caring. So perfect. So benevolent.

All because I simply asked Him to. I find that God sees value in our corporation. I believe all find value in the willingness of others to love us.
 
To all,
As sinners, we all can come to God by what the Lord Jesus did on the cross. God did what we call a RESET ON SIN ..... meaning without sin. so all can approach God without fear. ........ so, instead of confessing our sins to be "SAVED", (which none of us can remember them all), we confess the Lord Jesus. supportive scripture, Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;" Romans 3:26 "To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Romans 3:27 "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith."

so the NT COVENANT is established in Faith by our belief in Christ Jesus which answer the sin struggle question in Romans chapter 7. when the Lord Jesus said it is "Finish" sin is finished for the believer in Christ by faith. there is no more struggle because we now have in place an ETERNAL, A. Mediator, and B. Advocate. for those who are in Christ Jesus is "MADE" free not just set "FREE" but "MADE FREE. supportive scripture, 1 Timothy 1:9 "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers," 1 Timothy 1:10 "For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;"
have we not been WASHED in the Blood of Christ?

but one note: "and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;" WARRNING get you doctrine right, don't believe every wind/false teachers of doctrine that comes along. Ephesians 4:11 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;" Ephesians 4:12 "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:" Ephesians 4:13 "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:" Ephesians 4:14 "That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;" Ephesians 4:15 "But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:"

101G.
 
EclipseEventSigns said:
There are many, many places in the Septuagint that don't present the meaning of the original Hebrew correctly. The translation of Daniel, for example, is entirely a confused mess of wrong translation. To change your view of an entire passage based on a single line of a Greek translation is extreme indeed.

You have to compare with how this line fits in context around it and within the entire passage. The particular word English translations use as "crushed" can also have the meaning as "smitten", It was Yahweh's desire/will to smite/strike Him causing wounds. Even the following line (which you did not quote) also says the situation was a serious one - of death - a guilt offering. There is no healing being implied here whatsoever.

And then, you have to compare with how that word is used elsewhere. It occurs just a few verses prior in verse 5.
[Isa 53:5 LSB] 5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our peace [fell] upon Him, And by His wounds we are healed.

Prophets usually stated things in twos. Each giving the same meaning in a different way. "pierced through" is equivalent to "crushed" (smitten). And these resulted in His wounds. But the entire situation culminates in the healing of His people.

Even verse 4 is all about God striking His Anointed.
[Isa 53:4 LSB] 4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
Click to expand...

The apparent miscarriage of justice just described (Isa_53:9) would not be what it would appear to be. It would be the deliberate act of Yahweh. It would please Yahweh to crush His Servant and to put Him to grief. The Father did not find the sufferings and death of His Son something pleasurable (or enjoyable) to behold, but they pleased (satisfied) Him because they fulfilled His great purpose of providing redemption for humankind.

"The faithful God of the Bible would certainly not visit bad things on innocent people, would he? Yes, he would if some greater good would be served (cf. Job)." [Note: Oswalt, The Book . . . 40-66, p. 400.]
 
EclipseEventSigns said:
"

That is a big assumption. One that has very little actual historical support. You start from a faulty foundation.

There is actually more proof that New Testament writers were quoting the Aramaic translations of the Old Testament or paraphrases (Targumim) or even creating their own paraphrases. Matthew and John do this very often in their writings.
Click to expand...
The Talmud Nullifies the Bible

The Jewish Scribes claim the Talmud is partly a collection of traditions Moses gave them in oral form. These had not yet been written down in Jesus’ time. Christ condemned the traditions of the Mishnah (early Talmud) and those who taught it (Scribes and Pharisees), because the Talmud nullifies the teachings of the Holy Bible.

Shmuel Safrai in The Literature of the Sages Part One (p.164), points out that in chapters 4 and 5 of the Talmud’s Gittin Tractate, the Talmud nullifies the Biblical teaching concerning money-lending: “Hillel decreed the prozbul for the betterment of the world. The prozbul is a legal fiction which allows debts to be collected after the Sabbatical year and it was Hillel’s intention thereby to overcome the fear that money-lenders had of losing their money.”

The famous warning of Jesus Christ about the tradition of men that voids Scripture (Mark 7:1-13), is in fact, a direct reference to the Talmud, or more specifically, the forerunner of the first part of it, the Mishnah, which existed in oral form during Christ’s lifetime, before being committed to writing. Mark chapter 7, from verse one through thirteen, represents Our Lord’s pointed condemnation of the Mishnah.

Unfortunately, due to the abysmal ignorance of our day, the widespread “Judeo-Christian” notion is that the Old Testament is the supreme book of Judaism. But this is not so. The Pharisees teach for doctrine the commandments of rabbis, not God.

The Talmudic commentary on the Bible is their supreme law, and not the Bible itself. That commentary does indeed, as Jesus said, void the laws of God, not uphold them. As students of the Talmud, we know this to be true.

Jewish scholar Hyam Maccoby, in Judaism on Trial, quotes Rabbi Yehiel ben Joseph: “Further, without the Talmud, we would not be able to understand passages in the Bible…God has handed this authority to the sages and tradition is a necessity as well as scripture. The Sages also made enactments of their own…anyone who does not study the Talmud cannot understand Scripture.”

There is a tiny Jewish sect which makes considerable effort to eschew Talmud and adhere to the Old Testament alone. These are the Karaites, a group which, historically, has been most hated and severely persecuted by orthodox Jewish rabbinate.

To the Mishnah the rabbis later added the Gemara (rabbinical commentaries). Together these comprise the Talmud. There are two versions, the Jerusalem Talmud and the Babylonian Talmud.

The Babylonian Talmud is regarded as the authoritative version: “The authority of the Babylonian Talmud is also greater than that of the Jerusalem Talmud. In cases of doubt the former is decisive.” (R.C. Musaph-Andriesse, From Torah to Kabbalah: A Basic Introduction to the Writings of Judaism, p. 40).

This study is based on the Jewish-authorized Babylonian Talmud. We have published herein the authenticated sayings of the Jewish Talmud. Look them up for yourself.

We publish the following irrefutable documentation in the hope of liberating all people, including Jewish people, from the corrosive delusions and racism of this Talmudic hate literature, which is the manual of Orthodox and Hasidic Jews the world over.

The implementation by Jewish supremacists of Talmudic hate literature has caused untold suffering throughout history and now, in occupied Palestine, it is used as a justification for the mass murder of Palestinian civilians. The Talmud specifically defines all who are not Jews as non-human animals.
hshidayat.wordpress.com

THE SATANIC VERSES OF THE JEWISH TALMUD AND ZIONISM

SATANIC VERSES OF THE JEWISH TALMUD: ZIONISTS, ZIONISM AND JUDAISM by Syarif Hidayat The Talmud supercedes the Old Testament in authority for the Jews. And the Talmud is the most racist,…
hshidayat.wordpress.com hshidayat.wordpress.com

Spot on-very few Christians are aware of the existence of the early writings of the Talmud in the time of Messiah.
 
Johann said:
"The faithful God of the Bible would certainly not visit bad things on innocent people, would he? Yes, he would if some greater good would be served (cf. Job)." [Note: Oswalt, The Book . . . 40-66, p. 400.]
Click to expand...

If God allowed evils for a greater good, than the evils serving as means to an end, become themselves a good thing.

Rather I would nuance the phrasing differently: God allows evil because some evils are logically entailed within greater goods.

You might ask, how is that different—the evil is not to achieve the good (not "served", or "for" the good), the evil is unavoidably entailed in it.

Because it is instead a byproduct rather than a goal, the evil is no longer a logical step towards a greater end.
 
dizerner said:
If God allowed evils for a greater good, than the evils serving as means to an end, become themselves a good thing.

Rather I would nuance the phrasing differently: God allows evil because some evils are logically entailed within greater goods.

You might ask, how is that different—the evil is not to achieve the good (not "served", or "for" the good), the evil is unavoidably entailed in it.

Because it is instead a byproduct rather than a goal, the evil is no longer a logical step towards a greater end.
Click to expand...
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil. Thats just another assault on Gods good name and character just like PSA espouses. The two go hand in hand together , you cannot have one without the other. You would make a good calvinist.

hope this helps !!!
 
civic said:
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil. Thats just another assault on Gods good name and character just like PSA espouses. The two go hand in hand together , you cannot have one without the other. You would make a good calvinist.

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...

I don't understand your objection.

Could you explain it better?

See the problem with the "means to an end" is, it is no longer calling evil as evil—evil by definition, cannot be a good thing.
 
dizerner said:
I don't understand your objection.

Could you explain it better?

See the problem with the "means to an end" is, it is no longer calling evil as evil—evil by definition, cannot be a good thing.
Click to expand...
your words below

" the evils serving as means to an end, become themselves a good thing. "

conclusion: darkness is the absence of light just as evil is the absence of good.

hope this helps !!!
 
civic said:
your words below

" the evils serving as means to an end, become themselves a good thing. "

conclusion: darkness is the absence of light just as evil is the absence of good.

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...

Yes, I was explaining the opposing position not my own position.

It seems you took my explanation of what I argued against, and somehow attributed it to me.

Strange.
 
dizerner said:
Yes, I was explaining the opposing position not my own position.

It seems you took my explanation of what I argued against, and somehow attributed it to me.

Strange.
Click to expand...

The apparent miscarriage of justice just described (Isa_53:9) would not be what it would appear to be. It would be the deliberate act of Yahweh. It would please Yahweh to crush His Servant and to put Him to grief.

The Father did not find the sufferings and death of His Son something pleasurable (or enjoyable) to behold, but they pleased (satisfied) Him because they fulfilled His great purpose of providing redemption for humankind.

"The faithful God of the Bible would certainly not visit bad things on innocent people, would he? Yes, he would if some greater good would be served (cf. Job)." [Note: Oswalt, The Book . . . 40-66, p. 400.]

The greater good in this case was that the Servant would be the perfect and final guilt (trespass) offering for sin thus taking away the sins of the world (Joh_1:29).

I hold to this view-Penal Substitutionary Atonement.
 
dizerner said:
Yes, I was explaining the opposing position not my own position.

It seems you took my explanation of what I argued against, and somehow attributed it to me.

Strange.
Click to expand...
I didn't see you quoting anyone in that post. Sorry about that as I thought it was your position.
 
Johann said:
The greater good in this case was that the Servant would be the perfect and final guilt (trespass) offering for sin thus taking away the sins of the world (Joh_1:29).

I hold to this view-Penal Substitutionary Atonement.
Click to expand...

I don't believe the atonement was a miscarriage of justice.

The whole point of the atonement is upholding justice.

Thus, it was not a fundamentally evil thing for God to bear the punishment of our sins, even though it may seem evil to us.
 
dizerner said:
I don't believe the atonement was a miscarriage of justice.

The whole point of the atonement is upholding justice.

Thus, it was not a fundamentally evil thing for God to bear the punishment of our sins, even though it may seem evil to us.
Click to expand...
How can it be a fundamentally evil thing for God to bear our asham when it was the boule/thelema of YHVH brother?
Hear me out-let us not philosophize or speculate re PSA but stand by what is written-Perfect Tense.
Stand rock solid on what you believe is truth and don't allow yourself to be swayed to and fro.
Shalom @dizerner
 
Johann said:
How can it be a fundamentally evil thing for God to bear our asham when it was the boule/thelema of YHVH brother?
Hear me out-let us not philosophize or speculate re PSA but stand by what is written-Perfect Tense.
Stand rock solid on what you believe is truth and don't allow yourself to be swayed to and fro.
Shalom @dizerner
Click to expand...

Yes, exactly so.

Intuitively we feel Jesus didn't get what he deserved and became some kind of victim.

But because Jesus himself is the actual Judge relative to whom all crimes are made, he has a unique authority and power to stand in our place.

It was not so much a "rescue mission," as that puts humanity in the "innocent" category.

It was instead a ridiculously lavish display of undeserved affection.
 

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