Is persuasion even necessary in Calvinism ?

[Johann]

Shalom to you and family my brother-tough times here in South Africa.

Johann.

 

[TibiasDad]

Shalom to you and family my brother-tough times here in South Africa.

Johann.

Heb 6:10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.


Doug

 

[TomL]

Why are you shunning the Pauline corpus?

John 6:44 and the Drawing of the Father: Not Irresistible, but Mediated
The Calvinist argument:

“The drawing in John 6:44 equates to being brought to seeing the Son spiritually and believing on Him as previously stated in vv. 37–40,44.”

Response from Paul’s Epistles:

Paul identifies the means by which God draws:

Romans 10:17: “Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

2 Thess. 2:14: “Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

1 Cor. 1:21: “It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.”

Paul never attributes “drawing” to an inward, irresistible compulsion. Rather, the calling and drawing of God are mediated through the gospel proclamation, and hearing precedes faith and regeneration.

Drawing is not coercion but persuasion:

2 Cor. 5:11: “Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men…”

2 Cor. 5:20: “We beseech you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.”

Paul’s entire gospel ministry is one of active appeal, exhortation, and pleading, not the assumption that only the elect will believe because of a prior inward regeneration.

John 6:37 – “All that the Father gives me will come to me”
The Calvinist equates this with unconditional election. However:

Paul clarifies that divine giving is not arbitrary or selective:

Rom. 8:32: “He that spared not his own Son... how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?”

1 Tim. 2:4: “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”

The gift of the Son is universal (cf. Rom. 5:18+), and the giving of persons to Christ is based on their response to the gospel, not a hidden decree.

The “giving” occurs in response to faith:

Gal. 3:22: “The scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.”

Hence, “all that the Father gives me” are those who respond in faith, and believers are given into Christ's hand—not that people are given and then believe because they are regenerated.

John 6:40 – “Everyone who sees and believes”
This verse contradicts irresistible grace:

“Every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life...”

Paul confirms salvation is contingent upon belief, not effectual calling:

Rom. 1:16: “The gospel... is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth.”

Eph. 1:13: “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth... in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed...”

1 Cor. 15:2: “By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.”

Believing is an act that precedes sealing (Eph. 1:13) and salvation (Rom. 10:9–10), not something that happens after regeneration. Faith is the human response to God's overture.

The Problem of Selectivity in Calvinist Interpretation

They cite John 6:37, 39, 44 but ignore:

John 12:32: “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” → Universal drawing refutes exclusive election.

Romans 2:4: “The goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance.” → The leading is resistible, for many refuse it (cf. Rom. 2:5).

Acts 17:30: “God... now commandeth all men every where to repent.” → A command implies ability and responsibility, not inability and reprobation.

Paul’s Soteriology:
Paul consistently teaches that the gospel is offered universally (Tit. 2:11; 1 Tim. 4:10+).

He affirms that faith precedes regeneration, since believing results in being sealed (Eph. 1:13), justified (Rom. 5:1), and saved (Rom. 10:9–10).

He repeatedly affirms that God's drawing is resistible (Acts 26:28; 2 Cor. 6:1).

There is no Pauline support for the idea that only the elect are drawn, regenerated, and infallibly saved without human cooperation.

J.

Good post. Further, God is giving those that are his, not some who were unconditionally selected before the foundation of the world

John 17:6–8 (LEB) — 6 “I have revealed your name to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you have given them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they understand that all the things that you have given me are from you, 8 because the words that you gave to me I have given to them, and they received them and know truly that I have come from you, and they have believed that you have sent me.

 

[Presby02]

Those that are the Father's

John 17:6 (KJV 1900) — 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Exactly. And those given to Him are the ones who will hear and learn. Hearing and learning are not why they are given.

 

[Presby02]

Sure it does in John 6:45- It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Yup, the "they" are those who were given by the Father to the Son. Hearing and learning is not universal. Only to those given by the Father.

 

[brightfame52]

Those that are the Father's

John 17:6 (KJV 1900) — 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Thats the elect, the Father chose them in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he[The Father] hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Chosen us in Vs 4 is in the middle voice, meaning the Father chose them for Himself, and then put them in Christ, these are eternal transactions before the world began.

Then the Father gives them to Christ in time when He draws them to Him Jn 6:37,44

 

[TomL]

Thats the elect, the Father chose them in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he[The Father] hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Chosen us in Vs 4 is in the middle voice, meaning the Father chose them for Himself, and then put them in Christ, these are eternal transactions before the world began.

Then the Father gives them to Christ in time when He draws them to Him Jn 6:37,44

Sorry you beg the question And run to a foreign context

Eph 1:4 is not in the gospel of john and reference the faithful in Christ who are chosen to be holy and blameless. Nothing is stated they were unconditionally elected to be believers of God

Once again you read your theology into scripture.

 

[TomL]

Exactly. And those given to Him are the ones who will hear and learn. Hearing and learning are not why they are given.

You missed the point they are believers of God so when they received his revelation they believe it and come to Christ.

There is nothing here which speaks of an irresistable drawing of unconditionally sellected men

 

[civic]

Yup, the "they" are those who were given by the Father to the Son. Hearing and learning is not universal. Only to those given by the Father.

That nt what the verse says- it says:

Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Notice the order below

1- Everyone who has heard from the Father
2- And learned from Him
3- They are the ones that come to Jesus

Nothing in the verse about being given.

hope this helps !!!

 

[brightfame52]

@TomL

Sorry you beg the question And run to a foreign context

Hows that ? Scripture interprets scripture. I didnt go out of the context of scripture, thats a lame excuse to reject scripture.

 

[TomL]

@TomL



Hows that ? Scripture interprets scripture. I didnt go out of the context of scripture, thats a lame excuse to reject scripture.

Context first

You run from context

And it appears that is why you do not quote what you are supposedly replying to

Eph 1:4 is not in the gospel of john and references the faithful in Christ who are chosen to be holy and blameless. Nothing is stated they were unconditionally elected to be believers of God

Once again you read your theology into scripture.

 

[Presby02]

You missed the point they are believers of God so when they received his revelation they believe it and come to Christ.

There is nothing here which speaks of an irresistable drawing of unconditionally sellected men

It does not say they were believers prior to hearing and learning. Your right, I missed that in the text. It's not there.

"All that the Father gives to me WILL COME to me." The giving is prior to coming.

 

[Presby02]

That nt what the verse says- it says:

Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Notice the order below

1- Everyone who has heard from the Father
2- And learned from Him
3- They are the ones that come to Jesus

Nothing in the verse about being given.

hope this helps !!!

Actually in the text it is the giving of those by the Father to the Son that comes first.

Who is the "everyone"?

 

[brightfame52]

Context first

You run from context

And it appears that is why you do not quote what you are supposedly replying to

No matter how you slice it, scripture interprets scripture. Its lawful to borrow scripture truth from another context of scripture. Thats mostly how Paul and the other apostles used scripture. In fact much in the context of the OT scripture was used in the NT scripture. For instances this quote about oxen 1 Cor 9:9

For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
Now that scripture comes from an entirely different context, way back in the law of Moses Deut 25:4

So arguing context is nothing but a evasion tactic, as long as spiritual principle is consistent, borrowing from context to context is proper biblical hermeneutics 1 Cor 2:13

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

This is only possible by truth established from one context to another

You trying to put folk in bondage, thats just like roman Catholicism who bootstrap the people with that type of stuff. And then you turn right around and do that what you condemn others for.

 

[TomL]

No matter how you slice it, scripture interprets scripture. Its lawful to borrow scripture truth from another context of scripture. Thats mostly how Paul and the other apostles used scripture. In fact much in the context of the OT scripture was used in the NT scripture. For instances this quote about oxen 1 Cor 9:9

Sorry but that is an ignorant argument

Each passage must first be exegeted based upon its context

Those given to Christ had first belonged to the father

John 17:6 (NIV) — 6 “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

You cannot falsify that fact by running elsewhere.

You misinterpret one passage to misinterpret another

Eph 1:4 concerns the faithful in Christ, they are chosen to be holy and blameless.

There is no passage which states God unconditionally chose men to be believers of Christ.

 

[TomL]

It does not say they were believers prior to hearing and learning. Your right, I missed that in the text. It's not there.

"All that the Father gives to me WILL COME to me." The giving is prior to coming.

Um The Father gives those that were his

John 17:6 (NIV) — 6 “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

and they believed the Father

John 17:8 (NIV) — 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.

 

[Presby02]

Um The Father gives those that were his

John 17:6 (NIV) — 6 “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

and they believed the Father

John 17:8 (NIV) — 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.

Of course. They were given a new heart to do so and then were granted or given belief. All with God being the direct cause.

The topic is hearing and learning. Not believing. In John 6 the giving by the Father precedes hearing and learning.

 

[Presby02]

Um The Father gives those that were his

John 17:6 (NIV) — 6 “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

and they believed the Father

John 17:8 (NIV) — 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.

Of course. They were given a new heart to do so and then were granted or given belief. All with God being the direct cause.

The topic is hearing and learning. Not believing. In John 6 the giving by the Father precedes hearing and learning.

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry but that is an ignorant argument

Each passage must first be exegeted based upon its context

Those given to Christ had first belonged to the father

John 17:6 (NIV) — 6 “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

You cannot falsify that fact by running elsewhere.

You misinterpret one passage to misinterpret another

Eph 1:4 concerns the faithful in Christ, they are chosen to be holy and blameless.

There is no passage which states God unconditionally chose men to be believers of Christ.

No matter how you slice it, scripture interprets scripture. If you cant understand that, you shouldnt be discussing biblical matters.

 

[TomL]

No matter how you slice it, scripture interprets scripture. If you cant understand that, you shouldnt be discussing biblical matters.

But your interpretation of scripture does not determine scripture

For scripture to interpret scripture it must be exegeted properly

You never do this and use your assumptions regarding one passage to deny another.

It is an extremely poor hermeneutic.