Is Jesus the Christ a human Person?

[Behold]

I really like you have provided feedback Behold although scripture does not say what you wrote.

Im quoting scripture, and you say it "does not say it'.

That's typical of a "mind edited" type of defense.

"Yes, we know that the bible says that Jesus, pre-incarnate" in John 1, "was God".. and "The Word (Jesus pre-incarnate) became FLESH, ""

"""Yes, we have a bible , @Behold, but, we dont use it, unless we can twist it to teach edited thelogy'"

"""Now let us show you what WE TEACH, as this is our TRUTH.""

Yes i know.
Forums are infected with this same, just found as different theologies.
Nothing new under the sun.

 

[APAK]

Im quoting scripture, and you say it "does not say it'.

That's typical of a "mind cult's" type of defense.

"Yes, we know that the bible says that Jesus, pre-incarnate" in John 1, "was God".. and "The Word (Jesus pre-incarnate) became FLESH, ""

"""Yes, we have a bible , @Behold, but, we dont use it, unless we can twist it to teach cult thelogy'"

"""Now let us show you what WE TEACH, as this is our TRUTH.""

Yes i know.
Forums are infected with this same, just found as different theologies.
Nothing new under the sun.

Again Behold you are clearly not using scripture to draw your conclusions. You are using scripture to try and reinforce the trinitarian doctrines you have been taught by men and not by the Spirit of God. You keep raising John 1:1-2 and 14, one of your favorites. And you keep inserting your own ideas of doctrines of men into it. Besides, you are using circular illogical reasoning in the process as you mind goes between John 1:1-2 and 14 and from verse 14 back to 1-2 again.

I would suggest you get out of this cycle of non-effective thinking and only read John 1:1-2 for now, and understand that first without ever knowing about John 1:14a that have been so battered and abused over the centuries.

 

[Behold]

Again Behold you are clearly not using scripture to draw your conclusions.

The readers read what im posting and most will see the connection.
You can't see it, and that is a spiritual blindness issue. not a "behold's conclusions" issue.

You like to beat this one horse on forums, over and over.
So, beat it, until you can see your deception.
Maybe soon you will, @APAK

 

[Matthias]

“Here, then, is the grace of Christian prayer: Christ is not far away, but is always in a relationship with us. There is no aspect of his divine-human person that cannot become and happiness for us. Every moment of Jesus’ earthly life, through the grace of prayer, can become immediate to us, thank to the Holy Spirit, the guide.“

Is Jesus Christ a "Divine-Human Person"? A new Heresy from Antipope Francis

novusordowatch.org

“Christ is the second person of the Trinity, who pre-existed his incarnation. He is God, pure and simple. He is a divine person, not a divine-human person.”

Was Christ a Divine-Human Person? | Reasonable Faith

Dear Dr. Craig I have read many of your books, regularly listen to your podcasts, and have heard you speak in-person. I am trying to untangle a question, and I need your help. I need clarification about the person of Christ, so I can effectively answer unitarian theists such as Moslems and...

www.reasonablefaith.org

I live in an area of the Commonwealth that is roughly 80% Catholic. The Catholics here aren’t upset in the least (at least not publicly) that the pope said, and I presume believes, that Jesus is a divine-human person.

What the pope said is rejected by the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[Behold]

“Christ is the second person of the Trinity, who pre-existed his incarnation. He is God, pure and simple. He is a divine person, not a divine-human person.”

Was Christ a Divine-Human Person? | Reasonable Faith

Dear Dr. Craig I have read many of your books, regularly listen to your podcasts, and have heard you speak in-person. I am trying to untangle a question, and I need your help. I need clarification about the person of Christ, so I can effectively answer unitarian theists such as Moslems and...

www.reasonablefaith.org

I live in an area of the Commonwealth that is roughly 80% Catholic. The Catholics here aren’t upset in the least (at least not publicly) that the pope said, and I presume believes, that Jesus is a divine-human person.

What the pope said is rejected by the doctrine of the Trinity.

What Bible are you using? (most of all) (most of the time)?

 

[Matthias]

What Bible are you using? (most of all) (most of the time)?

NASB95 is my “workhorse” translation.

 

[Behold]

NASB95 is my “workhorse” translation.

That particular bible has issues with the Deity of Christ.

For example, it removes the Title "GOD" from 1 Timothy 3:16 and states "HE".. .instead.

And a person says...>"well, that does not matter, as i know who that HE IS God"..

And that is because a real bible says. "GOD", so, that is where you learned it.
But had you only a bible that says "HE", then you have lost the doctrine, of the Deity, simply by removing that word "GOD".

The wrong understanding is this....>"well, i know all that stuff, even tho its not in my bible".

No offense my Brother........ I could do a study on Doctrines, regarding that one, but, i dont think you are going to care., based on our conversation.

 

[Matthias]

That particular bible has issues with the Deity of Christ.

I have a letter from the Lockman Foundation (publishers of the NASB) in my files which adamantly, and in no uncertain terms, denies that.

For example, it removes the Title "GOD" from 1 Timothy 3:16 and states "HE".. .instead.

And a person says...>"well, that does not matter, as i know who that HE IS God"..

And that is because a real bible says. "GOD", so, that is where you learned it.
But had you only a bible that says "HE", then you have lost the doctrine, of the Deity, simply by removing that word "GOD".

The wrong understanding is this....>"well, i know all that stuff, even tho its not in my bible".

No offense my Brother........ I could do a study on Doctrines, regarding that one, but, i dont think you are going to care., based on our conversation.

Which Bible translation are you using? (most of all, most of the time?

 

[Rapture Bound]

(Chuckle!!!) "trinitarian theology" doesn't mean SPIT. It's only "theology" after all.

God is ONE: "Father", "Son", and "Holy Spirit". You can see 'em all in action at John's Baptism of Jesus.

During the course of my discussions with the counterfeit Christian religious Institution called "Jehovah's Witnesses", they have said to me - "you Trinitarians worship a 3-headed God ... and your math doesn't add up ..... 1 [God the Father] + 1 [God the Son] + 1 [God the Holy Spirit] ≠ 1 [ One God]". My response was, "it's ridiculous to assume that it would be anywhere near possible to reduce and/or express the nature of the Godhead through the use of a mathematical expression. With that said, in my opinion, the closest mathematical expression that our finite minds may be capable of perceiving would be more like :


1^3 ... one cubed or one to the third power

 

[Behold]

I have a letter from the Lockman Foundation (publishers of the NASB) in my files which adamantly, and in no uncertain terms, denies that.

When you defend, its because you are accused. And that is why they put out that letter.....

See it?

Your favorite bible in 1 Timothy 3:16, removes the word "GOD" and inserts the "personal pronoun" "He".

Now, let me show you what this is wrong.

Lets say, you have never been trained by the Lockman Foundation, or by any denomination.

Lets say you were born in India, and raised as Hindu.

One day, you find a NASB95, and you open it to 1 Tim 3:16... and you have never even seen a Bible before.
Remember that fact...
So, you read..."HE", was manifested in the Flesh....

And you think..."He who"... "who is HE">....????????????????????

See the problem??
Its a big one, as the Deity of Christ is hidden from you...

And what people can't grasp at first, is that, the reason you KNOW that God is Jesus, "the WORD", is because a BIBLE that has "GOD" was manifested in the verse, told you so.
Whereas your bible hid the deity of Christ....as "He".

Which Bible translation are you using? (most of all, most of the time?

Thank you for the question.

I use this one...
-

 

[Bob Carabbio]

During the course of my discussions with the counterfeit Christian religious Institution called "Jehovah's Witnesses", they have said to me - "you Trinitarians worship a 3-headed God ... and your math doesn't add up ..... 1 [God the Father] + 1 [God the Son] + 1 [God the Holy Spirit] ≠ 1 [ One God]". My response was, "it's ridiculous to assume that it would be anywhere near possible to reduce and/or express the nature of the Godhead through the use of a mathematical expression. With that said, in my opinion, the closest mathematical expression that our finite minds may be capable of perceiving would be more like :


1^3 ... one cubed or one to the third power

Hmmm - not bad. Consistent.

My favorite (flawed) example is a "Cube" which has three dimensions. Width, Height, and depth. Every point within the cube exists in all three dimensions all the time.

 

[Matthias]

When you defend, its because you are accused. And that is why they put out that letter.....

See it?

I didn’t write to them for the purpose of accusing them of anything. I asked them a question about something which was written in a margin note - where a Hebrew word, adoni, was reported to be adonai. They replied that what was written in the margin note was incorrect and they promised to correct it in future editions. Their reply contained a comment about their commitment to the the Deity of Christ - something which I hadn’t asked them about but something which they wanted to be certain to include as a caveat.

Your favorite bible in 1 Timothy 3:16, removes the word "GOD" and inserts the "personal pronoun" "He".

Now, let me show you what this is wrong.

Lets say, you have never been trained by the Lockman Foundation, or by any denomination.

Lets say you were born in India, and raised as Hindu.

One day, you find a NASB95, and you open it to 1 Tim 3:16... and you have never even seen a Bible before.
Remember that fact...
So, you read..."HE", was manifested in the Flesh....

And you think..."He who"... "who is HE">....????????????????????

See the problem??
Its a big one, as the Deity of Christ is hidden from you...

And what people can't grasp at first, is that, the reason you KNOW that God is Jesus, "the WORD", is because a BIBLE that has "GOD" was manifested in the verse, told you so.
Whereas your bible hid the deity of Christ....as "He".

NET contains commentary which discusses the Greek manuscripts and explaining why they translated the passage as they do.

Thank you for the question.

I use this one...
-
View attachment 278

Thanks.

 

[Matthias]

No. [edit]

That’s ridiculous. As if I weren’t being accused by others.

 

[Behold]

I didn’t write to them for the purpose of accusing them of anything.

Well, now you know that their bible hides the Deity of Christ in one of the main verses in the entire NT, that teaches it.

NET contains commentary which discusses the Greek manuscripts and explaining why they translated the passage as they do.

Thanks.

Just so you know, im Seminary Trained, and trained in manuscript evidence., as you are that type that needs "scholarship credentials"..

And i'll tell you again.., ,you have to find out what these "scholars" believe.......= Core Theology... Is it Paul's. or is it not.

Now, What i dont do, is correct the Bible with the Greek or Hebrew.
I am a BIBLE Believer. =English Version, tho i have access to a Hebrew NT and the Greek stuff.


Ok then.

 

[Matthias]

Well, now you know that their bible hides the Deity of Christ in one of the main verses in the entire NT, that teaches it.

I know that you assert that it does, and that does interest me. My argument is that it makes no difference whether or not the passage is translated as “God” or “He”.

Just so you know, im Seminary Trained, and trained in manuscript evidence., as you are that type that needs "scholarship credentials"..

I don’t need “scholarship credentials” but I appreciate them. There is some difference between a person who has been trained and someone who hasn’t, but the training, in and of itself, doesn’t establish the truth of a matter.

So, im not saying that when you have access to this, you should go with it, but, its definitely an option to have it, vs, online sites...when available.

Now, What i dont do, is correct the Bible with the Greek or Hebrew.
I am a BIBLE Believer.
But, it has to be a real one.

Ok then.

 

[Behold]

I know that you assert that it does, and that does interest me. My argument is that it makes no difference whether or not the passage is translated as “God” or “He”.

Ask yourself..

Would God want "God" in the verse ?

See, its not about what we prefer, its about what God wants.
He does not want doctrine removed from His word by you, me, or any "foundation".

I don’t need “scholarship credentials” but I appreciate them. There is some difference between a person who has been trained and someone who hasn’t, but the training, in and of itself, doesn’t establish the truth of a matter.

Well, you assume that the nameless person(s) at the Lockman Foundation must be the one you trust.

I "assert" that you have no idea what these men actually believe, regarding their Theology, that caused them to deny the Deity of Christ in that Verse.

It's a game of smoke and mirrors, to say..>"we believe in the Deity of Christ" and then produce a BIBLE that hides it.

So, i realize that none of this is not what you want to hear...so, lets leave it there, my Brother.

Im out.

-Shalom

 

[Matthias]

Ask yourself..

Would God want "God" in the verse ?

I’ll also ask myself, Would God want “He” in the verse?

See, its not about what we prefer, its about what God wants.
He does not want doctrine removed from His word by you, me, or any "foundation".

I refer you again to discussions among people who are trained, as you are, about manuscript evidence.

Well, you assume that the nameless person(s) at the Lockman Foundation must be the one you trust.

I’m simply sharing with you (and others, indirectly) what they wrote to me. I take people at their word unless or until they give me reason not to.

I "assert" that you have no idea what these men actually believe, regarding their Theology, that caused them to deny the Deity of Christ in that Verse.

See above.

It's a game of smoke and mirrors, to say..>"we believe in the Deity of Christ" and then produce a BIBLE that hides it.

So, i realize that none of this is not what you want to hear...so, lets leave it there, my Brother.

I’m not your spiritual brother but I’m fine with leaving it there.

 

[Behold]

I’m not your spiritual brother

Ok,

I mistakenly thought you were born again, as i am., as that would make us "Brethren", "in the Lord".

Thank you for clarifying that for me and the Forum, @Matthias

 

[Mod1]

What have other trinitarians on this forum done to the little girl in the story? They abused her.

I don’t even know who the little girl is…

 

[Matthias]

I don’t even know who the little girl is…

I do, but I intentionally didn’t include her name (or the names of anyone else involved in the incident) in the story.