civic
Well-known member
My guess is Binitarian. But I'm sure he will let us know.
Is Jesus the Christ a human Person?
- Thread starter Matthias
- Start date
Matthias
Well-known member
Yep.
Netanyahu, as I’m sure you’re aware, has declared that the State of Israel is now at war.
Are you currently in a safe place in Israel?
Behold
Well-known member
That's a term, created by people who want to start divisions.
Its like this phrase... "OSAS" or "License to sin" or "KJV Only-ism"
So, im not any of that...
Im not an "Ism" or a "arian"...
Im a Bible Believer, who teaches that John 1, is True.
And John 1:10 that says that Jesus created the WORLD, is John 1 Is 1 Timothy 3:16 is Colossians 1:16
And when Thomas said... To Jesus... "my Lord and my GOD", and Jesus didn't correct Thomas...... is a fact.
So, im not a brand or a denomination.
I teach Pauline Theology.
That's it.
Ok. Along with God the Father does that mean that you worship Jesus also?
How about God the Holy Spirit? Do you esteem Him as God?
Behold
Well-known member
Thank you for that post...
I appreciate it, truly.
My Home is in Netanya... so, that is about 40 mins North of Tel-Aviv... Its on the Coast of the Mediterranean Sea.
Its relatively safe from Rockets.
Today, im writing to you from The States, as i had to come here to "take care of some personal business".
My Wife and Mother are "back home"., and they are currently, safe and sound.
Jews are use to running out of their homes, and into shelters.
Its what happens.., as the "incoming sirens" are always ready to go, and they go a lot.
The Gaza Palestinians (Arabs) decided to get their Rocket Launchers up and running, in the last day or so.
Nothing new here.
See for them, its ... just what they do. Its almost like "we are bored" "the summer is over" so lets see if we can Kill some Jews with these Rockets.
People dont realize that Israel, the size of it, ...
Do you know American Football?
Ok, take a Pack of Playing Cards, or a pack of Cigarettes, and put them in on the 50 Yard line, in the center.
That is ISRAEL, surrounded by Arabs, who have all THEIR Land, and want this last little piece that is Israel.
They'll never get it, as God has that all sorted out, and written down.
Behold
Well-known member
The best way i can answer you, so that we have clarity...
Jesus said...>"you believe in the Father....believe in me also (believe in me also).".
I do that,.
A real bible says.....
"God is A Spirit". = "Jesus is THAT Spirit".
The born again, is "the temple of the Holy Spirit", and "Christ in you, is the Hope of Glory".
So, notice this.. also...
"God hath raised Jesus from the DEAD", = Jesus said.. "No man takes my life from me, as i have the power to lay it down, and i have the POWER to Raise it UP"..
"Jesus is THE Resurrection and the Life"
Notice this..
Genesis 2.. "God breathed into Adam" and Adam became alive, a living Soul.
John 20:22... "Jesus breathed on them, (11 Apostles) and said.. receive you the Holy Spirit".
A.) Only God can give the Holy Spirit, as "God is A Spirit", and we are born again by "the Holy Spirit".... (not by water).
So, i just teach the Bible...according to Paul's Doctrine... and i let people who are looking to find their category and their denominational slot, find it for themselves.
Behold
Well-known member
Here is the latest.
"""Israel at war: 200 killed in Hamas assault, hostages taken to Gaza, rockets on Tel Aviv
Over 1,450 injured in unprecedented infiltration from Gaza, with terrorists at 22 sites attacking civilians and soldiers; thousands of rockets fired at Israel; reservists called up""
-Here is what it looks like from a window in Tel Aviv... 5 minutes ago..
Not fun.
Pray for the Peace of Israel/Jerusalem.
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Matthias
Well-known member
This thing looks massive. A lot of suffering going on and more, much more, to come. Praying for your family and for all caught up in the violence.
civic
Well-known member
Do you personally believe it might be in our lifetime? Thanks
Matthias
Well-known member
“Christ is the second person of the Trinity, who pre-existed his incarnation. He is God, pure and simple. He is a divine person, not a divine-human person.”
Was Christ a Divine-Human Person? | Reasonable Faith
Dear Dr. Craig I have read many of your books, regularly listen to your podcasts, and have heard you speak in-person. I am trying to untangle a question, and I need your help. I need clarification about the person of Christ, so I can effectively answer unitarian theists such as Moslems and...www.reasonablefaith.org
I live in an area of the Commonwealth that is roughly 80% Catholic. The Catholics here aren’t upset in the least (at least not publicly) that the pope said, and I presume believes, that Jesus is a divine-human person.
What the pope said is rejected by the doctrine of the Trinity.
The pope punched the Hypostatic Union in the nose.
Trinitarian reaction? Meh.
Apathy? Ignorance? Both? Something else?
civic
Well-known member
I’m not a Catholic
Matthias
Well-known member
In saying that Jesus is a divine-human person, the pope expressed a belief which the Council of Chalcedon identifies and condemns as heresy.
There was a time when the Church vigorously defended (and brutally enforced) what was decided by the Council. We now live in a time when few - Catholic or Protestant - even take notice of it.
The passion and the zeal of defenders past isn’t entirely gone, but it barely has a heartbeat.
This is what Harold O.J. Brown (a Protestant) spent his life combatting. If he were alive today his spirit would no doubt be grieved over the continuing slide away from orthodoxy and his failed effort reverse the tide. I wonder, though, if he would be surprised. My guess is that he wouldn’t be.
Each one of us has to give an account as to who do we believe Christ is. I believe that Christ is a Divine Person, a human being with both a Divine Nature and a transfigured body. Only God can and does save as Christ does. No one else. All human person saviors are imposters.
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Matthias
Well-known member
“‘Salvation is of the Jews’ (John 4:22), but theology and Christology, in our sense, are of the Greeks. The Christology of Chalcedon stands and falls with the contention that this ‘Greekness’ is legitimate. Indeed, the historical Christian conviction that ’this man,’ Jesus Christ, is able to ‘save … to the uttermost’ (Heb. 7:24-25) because of who he is depends on this legitimacy. To repudiate the ‘Greek’ interest in ontology, i.e. in who Christ is, signals not merely the end of the Chalcedonian era but - as far as theology is concerned - the end of the ‘times of the Gentiles.’
Does the reconquest of Jerusalem by the new state of Israel have immediate bearing on the end of the present age? Is it a sign of the imminent return of Christ? Christians have been warned by Jesus himself to be cautious about trying to discover the time of his return, yet he also advised them to ‘watch.’ It is in the light of this admonition that we must consider the apparent collapse of Chalcedonian theology. Is this also a sign? Can it be the beginning of the ‘falling away’ foretold by Paul? Again, caution is in order. The correct answer will be evident only when the predicted final events take place; it cannot be determined by speculation.
The geographical city of Jerusalem had already endured many shocks before the Six-Day War transferred it into Jewish hands once again in 1967. The historical doctrine of Chalcedon had also already endured many shocks before ‘existentialist interpretation’ and the ‘death of God.’ It too may survive to endure some more. When the calendar stood at one thousand years since the birth of Christ, hundreds of thousands of Christians took it for a sign of the end, but it was not. Neither were the calendar dates 1200 and 1260. But Jerusalem is more important in the timetable of history than calendar dates. And so is Chalcedon.”
(Harold O.J. Brown, Heresies: Heresy And Orthodoxy In The History Of The Church, pp. 449-450)
Thus did Dr. Brown close his book. The importance of Chalcedon to him is undeniable.
I think he’s wrong about Chalcedon but, if he’s right, the Church has lost its way. And that’s the tide that he was trying to reverse.
I appreciate his sincere concern over whatever ground Christianity has lost since Chalcedon. The Christian community must band together and swat away all anti-Chalcedon heresies. If the situation gets very bad I'm sure God will raise up another Saint Athanasius!
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Matthias
Well-known member
“Chalcedon: Two Natures, One Person
In Chalcedon in 451 the issue was: how were Jesus’ humanity and his divinity actually related. How did these two things exist in the same man, such that we can say ‘fully God, fully man’? And yet - we also want to say he’s only one person, or hypostasis? …
Why it Matters
Is this the kind of debate which is really about as much use as deciding how many angels can dance on the end of a pin? Why should you know this?
You should know it because getting this wrong has devastating consequences. These precise terms are used not because they explain everything, but because they prevent misunderstanding. …
When we are sloppy about our language - and I am looking at you, preachers - then we lead people to accept not the true God, and his true work, but some warped substitute.”
au.thegospelcoalition.org
So for those of us who don’t accept the teaching that “Jesus is not a human person” -> we‘ve been lead “to accept not the true God, and his true work, but some warped substitute.”
That’s a serious man making a serious point.
More specifically, for the “trinitarian” who does not accept the teaching that “Jesus is not a human person” -> the staunch defender of orthodoxy is saying to him or her that he or she has not accepted the true God, and his true work, but some warped substitute.
That’s not something trinitarians are used to hearing from trinitarians.
This is from a trinitarian who takes defending historical orthodox trinitarianism seriously; he is laying his cards on the table and calling it plain.
This is what orthodoxy truly looks like.
In Chalcedon in 451 the issue was: how were Jesus’ humanity and his divinity actually related. How did these two things exist in the same man, such that we can say ‘fully God, fully man’? And yet - we also want to say he’s only one person, or hypostasis? …
Why it Matters
Is this the kind of debate which is really about as much use as deciding how many angels can dance on the end of a pin? Why should you know this?
You should know it because getting this wrong has devastating consequences. These precise terms are used not because they explain everything, but because they prevent misunderstanding. …
When we are sloppy about our language - and I am looking at you, preachers - then we lead people to accept not the true God, and his true work, but some warped substitute.”
Theological Stuff You Should Know (1) – Anhypostasis / Enhypostasis
This is going to sound like it is only really for real theology nerds – a set of technical terms that sounds so darn similar that you can never remember...
au.thegospelcoalition.org
So for those of us who don’t accept the teaching that “Jesus is not a human person” -> we‘ve been lead “to accept not the true God, and his true work, but some warped substitute.”
That’s a serious man making a serious point.
More specifically, for the “trinitarian” who does not accept the teaching that “Jesus is not a human person” -> the staunch defender of orthodoxy is saying to him or her that he or she has not accepted the true God, and his true work, but some warped substitute.
That’s not something trinitarians are used to hearing from trinitarians.
This is from a trinitarian who takes defending historical orthodox trinitarianism seriously; he is laying his cards on the table and calling it plain.
This is what orthodoxy truly looks like.
καὶ ὁμολογουμένως μέγα ἐστὶν τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον· Ὃς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί, ἐδικαιώθη ἐν πνεύματι, ὤφθη ἀγγέλοις, ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν, ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ, ἀνελήμφθη ἐν δόξῃ. Nestles Text 1904, Westcott and Hort 1881,
Tischendorf 8th Edition
Καὶ ὁμολογουμένως μέγα ἐστὶν τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον· θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί, ἐδικαιώθη ἐν πνεύματι, ὤφθη ἀγγέλοις, ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν, ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ, ἀνελήφθη ἐν δόξῃ. Byzantine
Majority Text 2005, Greek Orthodox Church, Scrivener's Text is Receptus 1894
Almost all modern translations, including *Daniel Wallace’s NET, uses the Ὃς” text. (The first example above.) *(I believe Wallace is Seminary trained as well, and well versed in manuscript textual criticism.)
