praise_yeshua
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Seems like to me that he is actually calling for it. I hate to see it.
Is Jesus the Christ a human Person?
- Thread starter Matthias
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Diserner
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Matthias
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I’m not calling for it.
Johann
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Matthias
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Time to take the toys and go home.
The sun will rise again this morning and when it does the light of day will find orthodoxy still teaching us that Jesus is not a human person.
Matthias
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Good morning. The thread is still open. Time for me to get back to business.
I hope the power outage didn’t cause you any major problems.
About 9 out of 10 trinitarians I’ve spoken with about the Trinity have told me that they believe Jesus is a human person, yet this is impossible in trinitarian theology. There is a disconnect between their theology and their belief.
Johann
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12 o clock midday here and just woke up brother-collecting my thoughts-I will observe how this is playing out and what sources/references are being used.
Johann.
Matthias
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I was reading a paper just before I turned off the light and went to sleep last night which was presented at a theological conference some years ago. (The person who presented the paper had mentioned an ancient writer - Methodius- whose works I’m reading at the moment and I was looking for something in particular that the presenter had said about him.)
Your comment about observing what sources / references are being used prompts me to quote a line from that paper.
“To be sure, there are many illustrious names among antimillenarians of all centuries past since the time of Origen, and the validity of any system of doctrine is not to be established simply by appealing to the names and reputations of men.”
(Robert Shank, “The Church and Premillennialism”)
Bold is mine.
The author, as you can see by the title of his paper, is addressing a different subject than is the subject of this thread, but his comment concerning quoting sources not establishing the validity of any system of doctrine is a fundamental truth.
This is playing out on the forum as a distraction by those writing in opposition to me. They fail to grasp why I’m quoting trinitarian sources to my trinitarian readers. You’ve seen it before and you’ll see it again. Keep in mind what Shank said, and I hope you won’t allow their accusations to distract you.
Don’t use those sources / references as an appeal to authority. Always think of them as an appeal to our mind. Read them thoughtfully and critically.
In the words of an old Jewish bookseller, a personalized handwritten note scribbled on a piece of paper and inserted inside the cover of a book I purchased from him decades ago - a note that I’ve kept right where he placed it and am looking at as I write this to you now - ”As with all sources that you read & study, I hope you will ‘eat the meat and spit out the bones’ when reading this book. Shalom.”
The title of that book is The Real Messiah? A Jewish Response to Missionaries, written by Aryeh Kaplan.
Johann
Well-known member
I have the book in PDF format brother-The real Messiah? by Aryeh.
Wise advise-"Eat the chicken and spit out the bones"
Don’t use those sources / references as an appeal to authority. Always think of them as an appeal to our mind. Read them thoughtfully and critically.
A thought that is foremost in my mind.
J.
Johann
Well-known member
I am reading this now brother.
J.
Matthias
Well-known member
Before I retired I was speaking with a woman who shared with me a story about one of her children. One day in Sunday School class the teacher taught the class that Jesus is the creator of the heavens and the earth. The child, who is now an adult but was six or seven years old at the time, spoke up and said, “That’s not true. Jesus is God’s little boy.”
The Sunday School teacher gently corrected the child. The child continued to insist that God is the creator of the heavens and the earth and “Jesus is God’s little boy.” The teacher was flustered and sent the child out of class. Later that day, after the sermon was completed, the pastor of the Church requested a meeting with the child’s parents. A meeting was scheduled for later in the week and took place in the pastor’s office.
The pastor expressed his concern about the child challenging the authority of the Sunday School teacher. The mother said she would speak with her daughter about it and assured him that it wouldn’t happen again and, if it did, that she and the child’s father wanted to be notified of it so that there would be consequences for such action.
The mother told me that she thought that was the end of the matter, but it wasn’t. The pastor also expressed his concern about the child’s religious instruction. Where had the child gotten the idea that “Jesus is God’s little boy”?
The mother said she told the pastor that the child had gotten the idea from conversations her parents had had with her. The pastor responded that the parents must be more careful in their conversation with the child. He asserted that she must be taught that Jesus is God, not “God’s little boy.” The mother said she told the pastor ”Jesus is God’s little boy, now grown up.” The pastor, she said, was clearly miffed at her response.
Two nights ago my four year old grandson spent the night at my house. Just before his bedtime he asked if I would take him outside to look at ”the big circle moon“. Of course! As he excitedly pointed at the moon I asked him, Who put the moon in the sky? He immediately answered ”God did.”
When we came in the house and my wife tucked him in bed, he wanted a bedtime story. I thought of the woman’s story and told him about “God’s little boy and his God who put the big circle moon in the sky.”
The Sunday School teacher gently corrected the child. The child continued to insist that God is the creator of the heavens and the earth and “Jesus is God’s little boy.” The teacher was flustered and sent the child out of class. Later that day, after the sermon was completed, the pastor of the Church requested a meeting with the child’s parents. A meeting was scheduled for later in the week and took place in the pastor’s office.
The pastor expressed his concern about the child challenging the authority of the Sunday School teacher. The mother said she would speak with her daughter about it and assured him that it wouldn’t happen again and, if it did, that she and the child’s father wanted to be notified of it so that there would be consequences for such action.
The mother told me that she thought that was the end of the matter, but it wasn’t. The pastor also expressed his concern about the child’s religious instruction. Where had the child gotten the idea that “Jesus is God’s little boy”?
The mother said she told the pastor that the child had gotten the idea from conversations her parents had had with her. The pastor responded that the parents must be more careful in their conversation with the child. He asserted that she must be taught that Jesus is God, not “God’s little boy.” The mother said she told the pastor ”Jesus is God’s little boy, now grown up.” The pastor, she said, was clearly miffed at her response.
Two nights ago my four year old grandson spent the night at my house. Just before his bedtime he asked if I would take him outside to look at ”the big circle moon“. Of course! As he excitedly pointed at the moon I asked him, Who put the moon in the sky? He immediately answered ”God did.”
When we came in the house and my wife tucked him in bed, he wanted a bedtime story. I thought of the woman’s story and told him about “God’s little boy and his God who put the big circle moon in the sky.”
Johann
Well-known member
I am not fully persuaded and committed yet brother so will refrain from giving an answer-although I am aware you did not expect me to answer/reply.
J.
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civic
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The reality is all one need to do is read their Bible to find out Jesus is the Creator. Its in several places and is called God in a few of those places in Scripture- So both Creator and God.
Instead of reading the little child a bed time story read them John 1, Colossians 1, Hebrews 1, Genesis 1. Then the little child would know Jesus is both Creator and God who made all things and without Him nothing was made that was made. And that in Him all things exist and He is before all created things that exist. In the Beginning God, In the Beginning was the Word and the Word was God.
Johann
Well-known member
I am well aware of this brother.
(to βλέπετε). In Christ the whole fulness of Godhead—what a contrast to the human παράδοσις and the στοιχεῖα of the world!
κατοικεῖ] The present, for it is the exalted Christ, in the state of His heavenly δόξα, that is in view. Comp. Col_1:15. In Him the entire πλήρωμα has its κατοικητήριον (Eph_2:22), so that He is the personal bearer of it, the personal seat of its essential presence.
Have you listened to the podcast debunking the Triune Godhead?
civic
Well-known member
I know you are I was just agreeing and pointing out the flaws in the story.
Matthias
Well-known member
“From the mouths of children and babies come songs of praise to you. They sing of your power to silence silence your enemies who were seeking revenge.”
(Psalm 8:2, ERV)
The woman had taught her daughter the Apostles’ Creed. The first line of the creed identifies the Father alone as the creator of the heavens and earth.
Pointing out what the Apostles’ Creed says isn’t an appeal to authority. It is an appeal to our mind. The apostles didn’t write the creed, some unknown man (or men) did, after the apostles were dead. We must read the creed thoughtfully and critically. Does it agree with what we are taught in scripture? If so, embrace it. If not, reject it.
The woman was an orthodox trinitarian at the time when the story she told me occurred. She and her family were attending a church which espoused orthodox trinitarianism.
She later came out of orthodoxy. I was present when she was rebaptized in a lake. She’s now a Jewish monotheist.
Had she lived in the days of the Protestant Reformation and done what she did, she would have been murdered - by orthodox trinitarians - for what she has done. (I would have been, too, had I lived in those times.)
Matthias
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He’s feeding you orthodoxy. He doesn’t understand and interpret scripture through the eyes of Jewish monotheism. If you’re buying what he’s selling that’s your choice.
I did the same thing when I was an orthodox trinitarian.
Johann
Well-known member
As I have already explained to you brother-you need to be patient with me here-I don't make the Apostles Creed my authority-I was mixed up with Calvin a couple of years and a little leaven leavens the whole lump.
Sitting alone, in my house and that not by choice is not easy.
The battle is in the lev shome'a as I am sure you are well aware of.
J.
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