Is Jesus the Christ a human Person?

[Johann]

Like he isn't already doing that..... You're not directing him to a your preferred sources. We can all agree upon the Scriptures.

Careful, I have studied and still study the Scriptures-from a Jewish lens and viewpoint brother.
That's is why I am thankful for the Jewish tread and Islam.
You have a gift/calling, so have I and we make full use of our time.
J.

 

[Grace ambassador]

Why? Among other things, I’m a retired teacher. I’m guiding him to orthodox trinitarian sources and encouraging @Johann (and others, indirectly) to think for himself.

Which gets us all into trouble, eh? I am so glad I don't have to ↑
Better is to be brain-Washed By The Pure "Water Of The Word," Correct?

By All The Scriptures about The One Triune GodHead!

Amen.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Careful, I have studied and still study the Scriptures-from a Jewish lens and viewpoint brother.
That's is why I am thankful for the Jewish tread and Islam.
You have a gift/calling, so have I and we make full use of our time.
J.

Who doesn't? All the apostles are Jews. Jesus was a Jew. Read all the Rabbis you like, the best source is the Scripture.

Can I ask how you expect to learn about God from those who deny Messiah?

 

[Matthias]

Sure we are. You claim I reject Orthodoxy based upon someone's standard.

The standard of historical orthodox trinitarianism. It isn’t me. It’s Chalcedon 451 AD. It’s Chalcedonian Christianity that is the standard. I’ve made that clear from the start and have reemphasized it frequently.

I claim you reject Orthodoxy based upon someone's standard. See the madness in such nonsense?

Your claim is correct.

We are both correct to some degree. We are alike in this.

If we look hard enough, we’re almost always able to find something in or about someone else’s theology that we can agree with. Sometimes it’s a lot; sometimes it’s next to nothing.

Should I start educating the audience on what Jewish Monotheism really is?

If you’re knowledgeable on the subject, and your audience is interested, yes.

You're losing this logical argument rather badly at the moment.

You lost it before it ever got started.

Now before we repeat this exercise in grade school playground fashion: I wasn’t persuaded by your assessment of the conversation and neither will you be persuaded by mine. It’s a dead end. It’s filling the air with words that aren’t going to accomplish anything outside of entertaining our respective tribes and garnering their praise and support. It’s a conversation killer, and it’s very common on forums which operate at this level.

I can say the same thing about Jewish Monotheism. The difference being, I'm more than willing to discuss the Scriptures while you insist upon secondary opinion we both reject to some degree.

Are you able to discuss the scriptures without your trinitarian lingo?

See the madness in just an approach?

I see the madness of it all. My trinitarian colleagues wouldn’t come anywhere near a place this like. They think it’s ridiculous that I do. You know their attitude. They’re in their ivory towers, and they aren’t leaving those towers to interact with JAT.

 

[Johann]

Who doesn't? All the apostles are Jews. Jesus was a Jew. Read all the Rabbis you like, the best source is the Scripture.

Can I ask how you expect to learn about God from those who deny Messiah?

Many rabbinical writings who were believers in the Messiah brother and still more are coming to Messiah on a daily basis.
Shalom
J.

 

[Matthias]

Yo, I'm a Jewish Monotheist.

Then you are a unitarian.

Not incompatible.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Many rabbinical writings who were believers in the Messiah brother and still more are coming to Messiah on a daily basis.
Shalom
J.

Most are still looking..... I'm rather confident you believe in the Dispensational teaching of a restored national Israel.

Israel has always been made up of the faithful. None else. One of the best thing that could ever happen to those claiming heritage in Abraham is to realize they have no idea what they're talking about. Till they do, they will never seek Messiah.

 

[Matthias]

But it becomes rather frustrating to hold a conversation when the Logos users have it all on their software Achi-I have a Jewish orthodox brother and we can hold a conversation for hours.

Don’t let it frustrate you. If / when you start feeling frustrated just walk away. Take a break. Find someone else to have a conversation with.

My computer is FULL of Jewish writings and then some more.
An aside-my wife was Jewish.
J.

I remember you telling me that your dear wife was Jewish on another forum.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The standard of historical orthodox trinitarianism. It isn’t me. It’s Chalcedon 451 AD. It’s Chalcedonian Christianity that is the standard. I’ve made that clear from the start and have reemphasized it frequently.

I wasn't there. I didn't vote. I speak for myself as to what I believe. I don't let others define it for me. That is "thinking for yourself"....

Whether you realize it or not, all you're doing is moving from one error to another. I remember when I first decided to abandon what I thought I believed.......

There is a tendency to throw the "baby out with the bathwater". I did. I soon realized that I had made a mistake with such an approach. You are so disgusted with Trinitarianism that you're not really thinking anymore. Your thoughts are all negative because of your experience.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Don’t let it frustrate you. If / when you start feeling frustrated just walk away. Take a break. Find someone else to have a conversation with.

I remember you telling me that your dear wife was Jewish on another forum.

What makes you different than anyone else? The answer to this question is a fundamental issue you have.

 

[Johann]

Most are still looking..... I'm rather confident you believe in the Dispensational teaching of a restored national Israel.

Israel has always been made up of the faithful. None else. One of the best thing that could ever happen to those claiming heritage in Abraham is to realize they have no idea what they're talking about. Till they do, they will never seek Messiah.

Not so-read Romans 11-and don't assume what I believe brother.
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Praise Yeshua.
Shalom.
J.

 

[Matthias]

Which gets us all into trouble, eh? I am so glad I don't have to ↑
Better is to be brain-Washed By The Pure "Water Of The Word," Correct?

My advice to one and all is always the same: Immerse ourselves in the scriptures.

By All The Scriptures about The One Triune GodHead!

Amen.

Dead giveaway.

Here’s mine -> The one God of Israel.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Not so-read Romans 11-and don't assume what I believe brother.
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Praise Yeshua.
Shalom.
J.

Basically the same thing. These are the faithful made up of the Descendents of Jesus Christ.

 

[Matthias]

I wasn't there. I didn't vote. I speak for myself as to what I believe. I don't let others define it for me. That is "thinking for yourself"....

There were others there that did what you’re doing. They voted. They lost.

Whether you realize it or not, all you're doing is moving from one error to another. I remember when I first decided to abandon what I thought I believed.......

All right. Let’s continue the schoolyard game: Whether you realize it or not, all you did was move from one error to another praise_yeshua. I remember when I first decided to abandon what I knew I believed …

That’s a dead end street.

There is a tendency to throw the "baby out with the bathwater". I did. I soon realized that I had made a mistake with such an approach.

What you threw out, apparently, was Chalcedonian Christianity. You may or may not still sit in their pews. They don’t care. Chalcedonian Christianity, orthodox trinitarianism, is dying. As long as you say the magic “T” word - and you might not even need to that - all is good.

You are so disgusted with Trinitarianism that you're not really thinking anymore.

Only someone who doesn’t know me would ever have that thought cross their mind.

Your thoughts are all negative because of your experience.

My thoughts are not all negative, not even about trinitarianism.

 

[Johann]

Basically the same thing. These are the faithful made up of the Descendents of Jesus Christ.

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

The Mystery of Israel's Salvation

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Just a gentle reminder @praise_yeshua -I know you are aware of this.
Shalom brother.
J.

 

[Matthias]

What makes you different than anyone else?

You wouldn’t believe me if I told you. (And I have.)

The answer to this question is a fundamental issue you have.

This is an example of the type of comment which good moderators instruct forum members to refrain from making. I wouldn’t be a forum moderator for all the tea in Kenya. Their instruction is ignored and the forum suffers for it.

Maybe I should turn myself in for even mentioning it.

 

[Diserner]

Then you are a unitarian.

I don't think that logically follows, lol.

 

[Matthias]

I don't think that logically follows, lol.

My point.

Jewish monotheism is unitarian, not trinitarian.

 

[Matthias]

This thread may be closed soon. I was going to post the following this morning but delayed. I’ll post it now, before the axe falls.

From the link in the OP,

”So, let us review these first two very important questions.

Is Jesus the Christ a human person?

NO!

Holy Scripture has clearly instructed us that He could not be a human person.

Is Jesus the Christ a Divine person?

YES!

Holy Scripture has clearly taught us that He is a Divine person.”

(Bob Stanley)

The teaching of orthodox trinitarianism is clear.

The rationale given for the teaching (i.e. that it is taught to us in Holy Scripture) is false.

 

[Johann]

This thread may be closed soon. I was going to post the following this morning but delayed. I’ll post it now, before the axe falls.

From the link in the OP,

”So, let us review these first two very important questions.

Is Jesus the Christ a human person?

NO!

Holy Scripture has clearly instructed us that He could not be a human person.

Is Jesus the Christ a Divine person?

YES!

Holy Scripture has clearly taught us that He is a Divine person.”

(Bob Stanley)

The teaching of orthodox trinitarianism is clear.

The rationale for the teaching is false.

Why should the ax fall-this is a very interesting topic and pray it won't be closed.
J.