Is Jesus the Christ a human Person?

[Matthias]

Obviously they were "genuine Christians" willing to MURDER for their "theology".

”Genuine Christians” willing to murder for any reason causes me to question the term “genuine”.

They were Christians who, in their zeal for the Triune God, tormented, tortured, executed fellow Christians and non-Christians who didn’t believe the historical doctrine of the Trinity. That’s a simple matter of Church history.

I mentioned to someone else who rejects the teaching about the person of Jesus that, had he lived in those times, he would have suffered this fate at the hands of Catholics and Protestants if it had been known, or even suspected, by the Church. What I didn’t mention to him is that I would have suffered the same fate.

Here‘s the question that I think needs to be asked: Is it the doctrine that is the problem, or is it the zeal of those who held the doctrine that is the problem?

Historical orthodox trinitarian scholars point to the former, not to the latter. In other words, it was the leadership of the Catholic Church and the Protestant Churches who were at fault, not the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity. That’s my position on the subject, too.

 

[Matthias]

Hashem said unto Adoni [i.e., Moshiach Adoneinu; Malachi 3:1], Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies a footstool for thy feet
OJB

Good you took notice-from the OJB-however-

לְ·דָוִ֗ד le·da·Vid, of David מִ֫זְמ֥וֹר miz·Mor A Psalm נְאֻ֤ם ne·'Um said יְהוָ֨ה ׀ A·do·Nai The LORD לַֽ·אדֹנִ֗·י la·do·Ni, unto my Lord שֵׁ֥ב shev Sit לִֽ·ימִינִ֑·י li·mi·Ni; thou at my right hand עַד־ 'ad- Until אָשִׁ֥ית 'a·Shit until I make אֹ֝יְבֶ֗י·ךָ 'o·ye·Vei·cha, thine enemies הֲדֹ֣ם ha·Dom stool לְ·רַגְלֶֽי·ךָ׃ le·rag·Lei·cha. your feet


Prep-l+N-msc+1cs (BSB Morphology)
Preposition-l
+ Noun - masculine singular construct
+ first person common singular
Lemma: אָדוֹן
Word: לַֽאדֹנִ֗י
Transliteration: la·ḏō·nî
English: to my Lord,
H113 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments)
H113 אָדוֹן 'adown (aw-done') n-m.
אָדֹן 'adon (aw-done') [shortened]
1. sovereign (i.e. controller, human or divine).
2. lord.
N-proper-ms (BSB Morphology)
Noun - proper - masculine singular
Lemma: יְהוָה
Word: יְהוָ֨ה׀
Transliteration: Yah·weh
English: YHWH
H3068 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments)
H3068 יְהוָה Yhvah (yeh-vaw') n/p.
יְהוָֹה Yhovah (yeh-ho-vaw')
יְהוֹ Yhow (yeh-ho') [as a prefix]
1. (meaning) the self-Existent or Eternal, the I AM.
2. (person) Yahweh (Yehvah), Jewish national name of God.
3. (anglicized) Jehovah.
4. (as a name prefix) Yeho-.
5. (As expressed in Hebraic Koine Greek) ἐγώ εἰμί, I AM (literally: I myself, I am).
ψαλμός A psalm τω [to] Δαυίδ David.
1 είπεν [3 said ο 1 The κύριος 2 LORD] τω to κυρίω μου my Lord, κάθου Sit down εκ at δεξιών μου my right [hand] έως until αν whenever θω I should make τους εχθρούς σου your enemies υποπόδιον a footstool των ποδών σου for your feet
Sit at My Right Hand

Psa 110:1 [A Psalm of David.] A declaration of YAHWEH to my Adonai: Sit at My right hand, until I place Your enemies as Your footstool.

לדוד מזמור נאם יהוה לאדני שׁב לימיני עד־אשׁית איביך הדם לרגליך


Not trying to be "smart" since I ain't.
J.

There is a major difference between the titles adonai and adoni.

Adoni occurs 195 times in the Hebrew Bible; in every occurrence to persons who aren’t adonai.

Adonai is the one God. Adoni is never the one God.

Yahweh to Adonai isn’t what is written in Psalm 110:1; it’s Yahweh to adoni.

 

[Johann]

There is a major difference between the titles adonai and adoni.

Adoni occurs 195 times in the Hebrew Bible; in every occurrence to persons who aren’t adonai.

Adonai is the one God. Adoni is never the one God.

לְ·דָוִ֗ד le·da·Vid, of David מִ֫זְמ֥וֹר miz·Mor A Psalm נְאֻ֤ם ne·'Um said יְהוָ֨ה ׀ A·do·Nai The LORD לַֽ·אדֹנִ֗·י la·do·Ni, unto my Lord שֵׁ֥ב shev Sit לִֽ·ימִינִ֑·י li·mi·Ni; thou at my right hand עַד־ 'ad- Until אָשִׁ֥ית 'a·Shit until I make אֹ֝יְבֶ֗י·ךָ 'o·ye·Vei·cha, thine enemies הֲדֹ֣ם ha·Dom stool לְ·רַגְלֶֽי·ךָ׃ le·rag·Lei·cha. your feet

So this translation is correct-right?

 

[Matthias]

Yes.

Here is a thought.

First....Baby Jesus, is in the manger.

and next....

Baby Jesus is now a little older, and He's barefoot. He takes His first baby step....standing up, holding unto Mary's hand.

Jesus's baby Feet, are now on the very earth that Jesus PRE- incarnate Created...

The thought contradicts what is written in the Apostles’ Creed.

Read John 1:10..............then read......Colossians 1:16


What a Savior.

Please provide me with an English translation of Colossians 1:16 of your choosing which you would like for me to read.

 

[Matthias]

לְ·דָוִ֗ד le·da·Vid, of David מִ֫זְמ֥וֹר miz·Mor A Psalm נְאֻ֤ם ne·'Um said יְהוָ֨ה ׀ A·do·Nai The LORD לַֽ·אדֹנִ֗·י la·do·Ni, unto my Lord שֵׁ֥ב shev Sit לִֽ·ימִינִ֑·י li·mi·Ni; thou at my right hand עַד־ 'ad- Until אָשִׁ֥ית 'a·Shit until I make אֹ֝יְבֶ֗י·ךָ 'o·ye·Vei·cha, thine enemies הֲדֹ֣ם ha·Dom stool לְ·רַגְלֶֽי·ךָ׃ le·rag·Lei·cha. your feet

So this translation is correct-right?

Adonai The LORD is fine.

Unto my adoni is fine, but the standard English translation of adoni is lord, not Lord.

Lord is the standard English translation of adonai.

Adonai said unto my adoni is correct.

Most English translations get this wrong. Look at how it is translated in NET. That is an example, there are others, which translate the Hebrew correctly.

 

[Johann]

Adonai The LORD is fine.

Unto my adoni is fine, but the standard English translation of adoni is lord, not Lord.

Lord is the standard English translation of adonai.

Adonai said unto my adoni is correct.

Most English translations get this wrong. Look at how it is translated in NET. That is an example, there are others, which translate the Hebrew correctly.

Thanks-which of the Hebrew Bibles would you say translates it correctly?
If so-any links or to read online?

 

[Matthias]

Thanks-which of the Hebrew Bibles would you say translates it correctly?
If so-any links or to read online?

Here’s a link to a correct one which has the Hebrew and English side-by-side.

Psalms 110 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

mechon-mamre.org

Any English translation which has Yahweh (or Adonai) speaking “to my lord“ is a correct translation of the Hebrew.

 

[Johann]

Here’s a link to a correct one which has the Hebrew and English side-by-side.

Psalms 110 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

mechon-mamre.org

Any English translation which has Yahweh (or Adonai) speaking “to my lord“ is a correct translation of the Hebrew.

לְדָוִד מִזְמוֹר נְאֻם יְהוָה ׀ לַֽאדֹנִי שֵׁב לִֽימִינִי עַד־אָשִׁית אֹיְבֶיךָ הֲדֹם לְרַגְלֶֽיךָ׃ 2מַטֵּֽה־עֻזְּךָ יִשְׁלַח יְהוָה מִצִּיּוֹן רְדֵה בְּקֶרֶב אֹיְבֶֽיךָ׃ 3עַמְּךָ נְדָבֹת בְּיוֹם חֵילֶךָ בְּֽהַדְרֵי־קֹדֶשׁ מֵרֶחֶם מִשְׁחָר לְךָ טַל יַלְדֻתֶֽיךָ׃ 4נִשְׁבַּע יְהוָה ׀ וְלֹא יִנָּחֵם אַתָּֽה־כֹהֵן לְעוֹלָם עַל־דִּבְרָתִי מַלְכִּי־צֶֽדֶק׃ 5אֲדֹנָי עַל־יְמִֽינְךָ מָחַץ בְּיוֹם־אַפּוֹ מְלָכִֽים׃ 6יָדִין בַּגּוֹיִם מָלֵא גְוִיּוֹת מָחַץ רֹאשׁ עַל־אֶרֶץ רַבָּֽה׃ 7מִנַּחַל בַּדֶּרֶךְ יִשְׁתֶּה עַל־כֵּן יָרִים רֹֽאשׁ׃

Correct @Matthias?

 

[Matthias]

לְדָוִד מִזְמוֹר נְאֻם יְהוָה ׀ לַֽאדֹנִי שֵׁב לִֽימִינִי עַד־אָשִׁית אֹיְבֶיךָ הֲדֹם לְרַגְלֶֽיךָ׃ 2מַטֵּֽה־עֻזְּךָ יִשְׁלַח יְהוָה מִצִּיּוֹן רְדֵה בְּקֶרֶב אֹיְבֶֽיךָ׃ 3עַמְּךָ נְדָבֹת בְּיוֹם חֵילֶךָ בְּֽהַדְרֵי־קֹדֶשׁ מֵרֶחֶם מִשְׁחָר לְךָ טַל יַלְדֻתֶֽיךָ׃ 4נִשְׁבַּע יְהוָה ׀ וְלֹא יִנָּחֵם אַתָּֽה־כֹהֵן לְעוֹלָם עַל־דִּבְרָתִי מַלְכִּי־צֶֽדֶק׃ 5אֲדֹנָי עַל־יְמִֽינְךָ מָחַץ בְּיוֹם־אַפּוֹ מְלָכִֽים׃ 6יָדִין בַּגּוֹיִם מָלֵא גְוִיּוֹת מָחַץ רֹאשׁ עַל־אֶרֶץ רַבָּֽה׃ 7מִנַּחַל בַּדֶּרֶךְ יִשְׁתֶּה עַל־כֵּן יָרִים רֹֽאשׁ׃

Correct @Matthias?

Yes.

 

[Matthias]

לְדָוִד מִזְמוֹר נְאֻם יְהוָה ׀ לַֽאדֹנִי שֵׁב לִֽימִינִי עַד־אָשִׁית אֹיְבֶיךָ הֲדֹם לְרַגְלֶֽיךָ׃ 2מַטֵּֽה־עֻזְּךָ יִשְׁלַח יְהוָה מִצִּיּוֹן רְדֵה בְּקֶרֶב אֹיְבֶֽיךָ׃ 3עַמְּךָ נְדָבֹת בְּיוֹם חֵילֶךָ בְּֽהַדְרֵי־קֹדֶשׁ מֵרֶחֶם מִשְׁחָר לְךָ טַל יַלְדֻתֶֽיךָ׃ 4נִשְׁבַּע יְהוָה ׀ וְלֹא יִנָּחֵם אַתָּֽה־כֹהֵן לְעוֹלָם עַל־דִּבְרָתִי מַלְכִּי־צֶֽדֶק׃ 5אֲדֹנָי עַל־יְמִֽינְךָ מָחַץ בְּיוֹם־אַפּוֹ מְלָכִֽים׃ 6יָדִין בַּגּוֹיִם מָלֵא גְוִיּוֹת מָחַץ רֹאשׁ עַל־אֶרֶץ רַבָּֽה׃ 7מִנַּחַל בַּדֶּרֶךְ יִשְׁתֶּה עַל־כֵּן יָרִים רֹֽאשׁ׃

Correct @Matthias?

I like that you bolded this for us. It’s important to note that the Tetragrammaton (the first bolded Hebrew word reading from the right) is not in the Hebrew phrase that is bolded immediately following the Tetragrammaton.

Tetragrammaton is not speaking “to my Tetragrammaton“ -> YHWH (Adonai) is not speaking ”to my YHWH (Adonai)”

YHWH (Adonai) is speaking ”to my lord (adoni)”.

Because this is a messianic Psalm, we know from the identification made in the New Testament that this is Yahweh speaking prophetically to Jesus of Nazareth.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

So then you believe some aspects of what historical orthodox trinitarianism teaches and reject other aspects of what aspects of what historical orthodox trinitarianism teaches.

Yup - that would be accurate.

When examined closely, the teaching that Jesus is a human person denies all of what historical orthodox trinitarianism teaches.

Maybe so, BUT HEY, it's all nothing but "Theology" after all. Personally I couldn't CARE LESS about "historic orthodox trinitarianism".

I’m familiar with scripture. I understand Matthew 28:19 to be triadic, not trinitarian.

Just theological word games - unimportant.

 

[Matthias]

Just theological word games - unimportant.

It’s not a theological word game. There is a difference between a triad and the Trinity.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

It’s not a theological word game. There is a difference between a triad and the Trinity.

Sure there is (wink, wink, say n'more).

 

[Matthias]

It’s not a theological word game. There is a difference between a triad and the Trinity.

“Obviously there is no trinitarian doctrine in the Synoptics or Acts. But there are traces of the triadic pattern of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in both.”

(Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity, p. 14)

 

[praise_yeshua]

You’re intentionally bearing false witness against me.

The trinitarian author of the article linked in the OP is teaching historical orthodox trinitarianism. I know it. @civic knows it. I thought you knew it.

I was raised in it. I was educated in it. I believed it. I taught it. I now reject it.

If you can prove that any of that isn’t true then you’re witness against me would be true. Until you can - and you’ll never be able to, because it’s the truth - you’re bearing false witness against me.

I gave up arguing the words of men a long time ago. I don't care what you believe. I never said such. Never. I have never seen @civic say such. I have never witnessed the vast majority trinitarians I've meet say such. Like I said, you have a poor understanding of the Trinity. You never really knew it.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Jesus did not raise himself from the dead.


If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:9

Funny how you post a verse that establishes the Trinity and don't even realize it.


Joh_10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Romans 10:9 If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Jesus... GOD. The power is God. Jesus has the power.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It’s not a theological word game. There is a difference between a triad and the Trinity.

Sure there is. Just like there is a difference between Unitarian and Myopic. Not much but certainly a little.

 

[Wrangler]

Funny how you post a verse that establishes the Trinity and don't even realize it.

Nonsense! The verse I posted states the fact that believing that God raised Jesus from the dead is a requirement for salvation. Nothing about a trinity. Nothing!

 

[civic]

Nonsense! The verse I posted states the fact that believing that God raised Jesus from the dead is a requirement for salvation. Nothing about a trinity. Nothing!

And the Son raised Himself from the dead.


John 2:19
Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

 

[Complete]

'And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
(and we beheld His glory,
the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)
full of grace and truth.'
(John 1:14)

'No man hath seen God at any time;
the only begotten Son,
which is in the bosom of the Father,
He hath declared Him.'
(John 1:18)

'For God so loved the world,
that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish,
but have everlasting life.'
(John 3:16)

'He that believeth on Him is not condemned:
but he that believeth not is condemned already,
because he hath not believed
in the name of the only begotten Son of God.'
(John 3:18 )

'In this was manifested the love of God toward us,
because that God sent His only begotten Son into the world,
that we might live through Him.'
(1 John 4:9)